Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > Canada > The Maple Leaf
Reload this Page >

Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Old Nov 15th 2019, 12:16 pm
  #76  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by Shard
Why did it not need telling ?.
The result of publishing was that a feeble minded old man was dumped into a situation of suffering. A dimwit went to jail for a crime he didn't conceive. The cost of housing someone in need was replaced by the cost of housing someone serving a custodial sentence who, in consequence of that sentence, is made more likely to need benefits later on. Everyone lost except the journalist who got paid for the story. It's a gutter press story akin to outing someone.

Originally Posted by Shard
In the latter case, despite the human-care issues, it has very serious impacts on both countries' care systems.
Plainly not on the care system of the country the person is moved from. The reason for moving the person is that there is no system in the source country.

Last edited by dbd33; Nov 15th 2019 at 12:30 pm.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 2:20 pm
  #77  
Tea Drinker
 
Danny B's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
Posts: 5,387
Danny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond reputeDanny B has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by Shard
What was that ?
For every action, there’s an equal opposite reaction
Before you say something or act in a certain way, think about the consequences.
Danny B is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 3:25 pm
  #78  
Yo
 
Shard's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,459
Shard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by dbd33
The result of publishing was that a feeble minded old man was dumped into a situation of suffering. A dimwit went to jail for a crime he didn't conceive. The cost of housing someone in need was replaced by the cost of housing someone serving a custodial sentence who, in consequence of that sentence, is made more likely to need benefits later on. Everyone lost except the journalist who got paid for the story. It's a gutter press story akin to outing someone.

Plainly not on the care system of the country the person is moved from. The reason for moving the person is that there is no system in the source country.
These are both ideas which seek to undermine properly functioning systems. If journalists don't report on it, there is less of a check, and more people may be inclined to engage in this kind of 'dumping' activity. It has an impact on the country of origin by removing a care requirement, and thereby validating the under resourcing of that country's care system.
Shard is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 3:37 pm
  #79  
Listen to the Music
 
dave_j's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,649
dave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by dbd33
I tend to side with the people in need over the fiscal constraints of the local authorities.
I strongly dislike this proposition that being a 'have not' entitles anyone to become a 'will take'.
Society organises itself to service members of that society and exacts contributions from it's members to pay for those services. Typically there's never enough to go around so taking more than you're entitled to inevitably steals resources from those at the bottom.
Whether it's an official overstating his expenses or an american falsely sucking resources from a health system it's not a victimless act, someone suffers as a result.

Last edited by dave_j; Nov 15th 2019 at 3:58 pm.
dave_j is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 3:48 pm
  #80  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by Shard
These are both ideas which seek to undermine properly functioning systems. If journalists don't report on it, there is less of a check, and more people may be inclined to engage in this kind of 'dumping' activity. It has an impact on the country of origin by removing a care requirement, and thereby validating the under resourcing of that country's care system.
The sort of generalized moralizing good achieved by the BBC publishing the story could as well have been achieved by publishing statistics. There was no need to make a victim of the old man, his abductor nor the British taxpayer.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 3:50 pm
  #81  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by dave_j
Whether it's an official overstating his expenses or an american falsely sucking resources from a health system it's not a victimless act, someone suffers as a result.
In this specific case, who was suffering before the journalist arrived on the scene? Who was suffering afterward? You can't, in fact, achieve a greater good by hurting people.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 4:02 pm
  #82  
Yo
 
Shard's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,459
Shard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by dbd33
The sort of generalized moralizing good achieved by the BBC publishing the story could as well have been achieved by publishing statistics. There was no need to make a victim of the old man, his abductor nor the British taxpayer.
To paraphrase Stalin, one case is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.
Shard is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 4:14 pm
  #83  
Listen to the Music
 
dave_j's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,649
dave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by dbd33
Who was suffering afterward? You can't, in fact, achieve a greater good by hurting people.
According to the Independant, this cost the NHS £20k. We're all aware that the bean counters ration underfunded NHS resources. The people 'hurt' by this act will never be individually identifiable, that doesn't mean that they don't exist. It'll be the old woman who's home help didn't come this week or the cataract op that's put off yet again.
This journalist did what he should be doing, his job, and that involves reporting crimes against society.


dave_j is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 4:22 pm
  #84  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by Shard
To paraphrase Stalin, one case is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.
Well quite. What I see here is a old man out on his arse, an idiot in jail and an increased cost to the British taxpayer. You and dave_j argue, if I follow correctly, that an abstract moral good; that being conformance to government policy on the two sides of the Atlantic, has been achieved. I imagine you're both old men, "There but for the Grace of God" you might think.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 4:27 pm
  #85  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by dave_j
According to the Independant, this cost the NHS £20k.
That cannot be true. The man was housed in a local authority care facility so the only cost to the NHS would be for any hospital visits he had.

Originally Posted by dave_j
We're all aware that the bean counters ration underfunded NHS resources. The people 'hurt' by this act will never be individually identifiable, that doesn't mean that they don't exist. It'll be the old woman who's home help didn't come this week or the cataract op that's put off yet again.
This journalist did what he should be doing, his job, and that involves reporting crimes against society.
I'd say this is a crime against accountancy. The NHS doesn't fund care homes and so cannot have been diverting funds to support the man from the nearly blind. The central government does fund prisons so the cost of incarcerating the idiot can more fairly be seen as depleting NHS resources.

Originally Posted by dave_j
]
This journalist did what he should be doing, his job, and that involves reporting crimes against society.
His job is to sell papers (or the digital equivalent). That does not make him more of or less of a good guy than Katie Hopkins.

Last edited by dbd33; Nov 15th 2019 at 4:29 pm.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 4:27 pm
  #86  
Yo
 
Shard's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,459
Shard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by dbd33
Well quite. What I see here is a old man out on his arse, an idiot in jail and an increased cost to the British taxpayer. You and dave_j argue, if I follow correctly, that an abstract moral good; that being conformance to government policy on the two sides of the Atlantic, has been achieved. I imagine you're both old men, "There but for the Grace of God" you might think.
Ripping off another country's health service is hardly an abstract moral good. If this practice became better known in the US, how would Britain cope with an influx of long term care-tourists? And chastising a journalist for shedding light on illegal practice is bizarre.
Shard is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 4:38 pm
  #87  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by Shard
Ripping off another country's health service is hardly an abstract moral good. If this practice became better known in the US, how would Britain cope with an influx of long term care-tourists? And chastising a journalist for shedding light on illegal practice is bizarre.
The journalist's position is morally ambivalent. If he knows the outcome of the story he's better not to publish it; everyone gets hurt and it can only make the idea better known. otoh he gets paid. Presumably he didn't give any thought to the outcome.

dbd33 is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 4:43 pm
  #88  
Yo
 
Shard's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,459
Shard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by dbd33
The journalist's position is morally ambivalent. If he knows the outcome of the story he's better not to publish it; everyone gets hurt and it can only make the idea better known. otoh he gets paid. Presumably he didn't give any thought to the outcome.
The idea is better known, as are the consequences if caught. Whether that increases or reduces the practice is as yet unmeasured. The journo may well regret the outcome for the individuals in this case.
Shard is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 5:02 pm
  #89  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by Shard
The idea is better known, as are the consequences if caught.
There are no consequences if caught. There may be consequences for any local accomplice you engage but, as the perpetrator, you face no sanction at all. I don't know that publicizing that fact helps anyone.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Nov 15th 2019, 6:06 pm
  #90  
Listen to the Music
 
dave_j's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,649
dave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Biggest Money Lessons from Living in Canada

Originally Posted by dbd33
The journalist's position is morally ambivalent. If he knows the outcome of the story he's better not to publish it; everyone gets hurt and it can only make the idea better known. otoh he gets paid. Presumably he didn't give any thought to the outcome.
Imagine you live under an aged Trump in 2030. The man downstairs disappears following a visit by men in overcoats.
You are a journalist. You know the outcome of the story, you also know that publishing the story will result in more problems, and not just for you.
Do you publish?
You see the dilemma. A story that nobody hears about never happened. It's the tree falling in a forest that nobody hears debate.
For the man dumped on the NHS.
Q. Who benefits if the story is censored?
A. The criminals involved.



dave_j is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.