What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Hi, have picked brains on here a couple of times now - another question if I may.

In a previous thread, now closed, there's a discussion about clamping down on visa runs. I would not be intending to do visa runs in the sense of day-trips to Thailand, but does anyone think it would be a problem to do 2 x 90 days with a gap of somewhere between a week and a month between them, then come back and repeat the process the following year?

Also, would it make any difference where I was coming in from?

I would be able to demonstrate that I could support myself for 90 days without working BTW.

Thanks

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Hi,

There’s some information in this article that may help you.

Malaysia to clamp down on ‘visa runs’ – ScandAsia

Of particular interest was this comment by Immigration director-general Datuk Alias Ahmad:
“Effective immediately, those who make three consecutive U-turns into the country will be held for questioning.”

I think his statement probably refers more to those people doing 30 day visa runs, than those doing 90 day visa runs, and that it would be risky to try to get more than two 90 day visas back-to-back.

I think in your case you should consider:

• Leaving Malaysia at least a week before your first 90 day visa expires
• Staying out of Malaysia for at least a week before returning, preferably longer.
• Carrying your return air ticket to the UK with you, to show to the Immigration Officer if questioned, proving you are a bone fide visitor here for leisure
• Avoiding staying in Malaysia for more than 6 months a year

JC3

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Not a lot to add to JC3's post.

They do seem to like the Return Ticket to "Home" according to friends, so that might be wise.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

That link is nearly two and a half years old.

I live here. I've been out of the country multiple times over the last ten months for periods between three and ten days, always getting the ninety day stamp when I return. My passport is filling up fast! Never been questioned or even given a sideways look. Doesn't mean it can never happen, of course, but my Malay lawyer friend thinks it's very, very unlikely that I would be denied entry.

In times of economic hardship, MY would be pretty stupid to put up barriers to relatively wealthy foreigners coming and spending their retirement funds in the country, don't you think?

Illegal workers and over-stayers are another matter, of course, but I think they're much more likely to target people from non-western lands for that.

Incidentally, I have only once been asked to show an onward ticket by AirAsia check in staff when returning to KLIA. I just said "I'm a British citizen, I get ninety days", and that was that.

YMMV

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

That’s the rub. Everything’s just fine until immigration decide it isn’t.

I guess if you don’t have any assets in Malaysia, haven’t paid significant rental deposits etc. and have another home to return to in a hurry if necessary, without suffering any significant financial loss, then visa running might not seem too risky.

As Epicurious points out wealthy retired foreigners probably escape the net, being viewed as highly desirable visitors, however I get the feeling Cacafonix is not near retirement age.

According to Gov.uk:

The Malaysian authorities are running a vigorous campaign against illegal immigration. Don’t overstay your visa, or violate the terms of entry. Even if you overstay for just a few days, you can be fined, detained and deported.

See: http://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-adv...y-requirements

I think the major problem for visa runners going forwards is Malaysia's introduction of ever increasingly sophisticated border management systems with automated data capture from documents, live biometric capture and real-time processing capabilities.

JC3

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

After my work visa expired, I have stayed on in Malaysia for nearly one year now, leaving when necessary to avoid overstaying the 90 days visitor stamp. I have had a 6 day trip to Lombok, a 5 day trip to Hat Yai (both using cheap flights) and a 3 week trip back to the UK at Christmas.

I am not working with the tourist visa, just taking an extended career break. I have not yet had any problem re-entering the country, not even a single question at immigration.

Scratcher

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

It's all OK until it's not OK. There are those that say it is easier coming into KLIA rather than Penang. I really don't know. I have a visa.

I do know that a retired friend who lives in Penang was doing visa runs for years and years and years and got stopped last year and refused entry back into Penang. They told him he needed to go back to his home country. He spent 2 nights on the floor at Penang airport. He wrote some very amusing posts for Farcebook but I don't think it was much of a joke for him (having done years of visa runs).

This is a real story and a current one (albeit a year old).

I've also been told that there's a new Head of Immigration just been installed a few weeks ago. Do you think things will get stricter or slacker with a new guy in charge? I know what I think.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

I have highlighted the salient points in your post. Firstly, a stay of less than a year is unlikely to lead to questioning, and the fact that you returned to the UK (your "home" country) has the effect of resetting the Immigration Department's count of your visa stamps.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

teejaydee,

The OP wanted some advice on visa runs. I just posted my experience, which is different to the advice posted by JC3 in post 2.

• Leaving Malaysia at least a week before your first 90 day visa expires. I have never done this.
• Staying out of Malaysia for at least a week before returning, preferably longer. I have not always done this
• Carrying your return air ticket to the UK with you, to show to the Immigration Officer if questioned, proving you are a bone fide visitor here for leisure. I have never done this

• Avoiding staying in Malaysia for more than 6 months a year. I have been here for 1 year less 5 weeks.

It is up to the OP to decide how, when and where to leave and re-enter Malaysia.

Scratcher

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Would you mind saying what happened to your friend after the two nights at the airport? Was he deported?

My own experience with doing visa runs for twenty-one months (without a return to my home country) is that I was detained and told I could have a further visa for only seven days. After some discussion, I was given the full ninety days but the word "FINAL" was written over the stamp in my passport.

From what I have seen, regular returns to one's home country seem to be an essential ingredient for anyone seeking to live in Malaysia on tourist visas.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Many thanks for sharing your experience. It helps the rest of us to try and understand the system better.

By coincidence, I too never did any of the first three things you mention. However, I stayed two years (although I ran into trouble after twenty-one months). From my experience, the key is a return to one's home country at least once a year. You have done that, but I did not. The Immigration Department's computer system seemed to flag up the fact that I had not done this, thereby leading me to believe this is crucial.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

This is an interesting observation. Do they log your destination each time you leave? I always thought they just booked you out, regardless of your destination. Do they really check Thais go to Thailand, French go to France.. etc, etc.

Either way, I have always avoided doing a "day trip" (I live in Johor, so a day trip to Singapore is not out of the question) as I thought staying more than a few days (4+ nights) would make a difference.

Scratcher.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Hi TeeJayDee,

I think you probably fit into the category of wealthy retired foreigner, and yet were still detained, is that correct?

Once you got FINAL written over the stamp, do you know how soon after that visa expired you would be permitted to re-enter Malaysia?

If one is actually deported and that fact is stamped in your passport I believe it can create problems entering other countries too, and it can be several years before one is allowed to re-enter Malaysia.

JC3

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

His Malaysian partner/girlfriend went to Butterworth Immigration and got him let into Penang but on a limited stay. I don't know if it was a week or two, not sure. He had to fly back to UK. They had already booked a holiday back to UK so just had to bring that forward.

They then got married in UK so problem solved :p. He is back here. I presume, though haven't asked, that he's on the Long term visa that spouses can apply for.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Well, hopefully my three week trip to the UK and France in June and July will save me from the airport floor experience. I'm not sweating it.

If TPTB really want me to spend my retirement funds in another country, so be it.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

I think that most countries in the world do have some sort of restrictions regarding time of stay allowed as a tourist.
So it is not strange that immigration authorities react when individuals abuse the available visa free tourist travel option.
Try to do this in Europe for example, even as a EU citizen you are supposed to register if the stay in another country is over three months.

And I think that with modern machine-readable passports and traveler data registration at immigration points, the visa run way of life will become more and more difficult.

Malaysia has however a very straightforward and compared to other countries a not so costly option to stay legally in the country (MM2H), so if one is not prepared to follow that procedure I doubt that there will be any interest from the MY authorities to continue to allow to bypass it with visa runs.

With this said, visa runs may work now but without much peace of mind for long term arrangements such as rental and utilities contracts, etc.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

MM2H is not suited for everyone. For example, I'm taking a sabatical. At some point I will go back to work (construction sector) and god knows where the next project will be.

So staying 3 months at a time, on a tourist visa is the best option for me. I m not working here, never over stay, and therefore am not "abusing the free tourist visa".

But I agree that if someone was planning to make Malaysia their permant home then MM2H is the probably best option.

Scratcher

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

MM2H is an excellent scheme ... if it suits you. It doesn't suit me.

From the article linked to by JC3:

“Granted, there is no law to limit the number of U-turns, but I am exercising the department’s right to step up checks on those who come into the country this way.
If they can explain to us the reason for their multiple entries and furnish us with more details of their stay, including their accommodation and spending money, we will certainly welcome them.”


I can't see how I'm abusing the tourist visa system if there is no law to limit the number of u-turns. And my u-turns are not terribly sharp, since I'm usually away for a week or more. I don't leave it until the three months are nearly up; in fact I travel out of the country most months. It is not the pattern of someone who is working here illegally.



If challenged, I shall be happy to explain how all of my savings and income are derived from the UK, not one single sen from Malaysia where I have no income, no businesses, no work, no bank accounts. I am a tourist, albeit a long term tourist. I shall explain how I pay for pretty much everything I use in this fine country apart from the crystal clear air, pristine pavements and brilliant street lighting.



If they don't want me to spend my UK money in MY, I think they'll be making a mistake. It would inconvenience me temporarily and cost me a few quid, but relocation to another country that welcomes my life of spend, spend, spend would not distress me too much.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

As already said, presently the visa run procedure may not be a problem.
But one must be aware of that it is a grey zone without any specific 'rights' and subject to different individuals interpretation of what would be 'satisfactory explanations'.
In other words a bit risky to make any longer term (>3 months) commitments in the country.

For Thailand I think one has the option to seek a one year multiple entry visa, renewable with one more year. However visa run every 90 days would still be required.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Yes, I realise that I don't have any rights and I'm taking a chance. Everyone has to make their own judgement about doing things by the book or taking calculated risks. I'm happy with a higher level of risk than most people. My brother worried himself sick doing everything by the book and died at an early age. There's more to life than rules and regulations. Just my view.

I have considered living in Thailand, but the 'retirement' visa procedure is somewhat complicated (just read some of the threads on Thaivisa if you fancy getting a headache), plus I don't like the atmosphere in the country at the moment. It's plan B. Or C.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Before I got the MM2H Social Visit Pass I had to do the Visa Run one time by going to Singapore. Flew from KLIA, stayed one day there and eat three Laksas in less then 24 hours and then crossed the JB border, got the new 90 days stamp and took the train home.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Yes, quite correct (other than the "wealthy" part ;)).

No, and I did not ask the supervisor who wrote it because I did not want to give the impression I had the intention of returning as soon as permissible. She did however make it clear I needed to return to my "home country" before re-entering Malaysia. So perhaps an absence of just a couple of weeks is all that is required? When I left KLIA on my return to Europe, the person checking my passport said "I suppose we'll be seeing you again soon". We both smiled and I just said "Probably".

I am sure that may be correct. I wouldn't like to put it to the test.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

I am not an expert, but my belief is that the destination to which the passport holder is travelling is recorded at the point of arrival at that destination. The passport is always held for a second or two in an electronic device. I would take a guess that this writes a record onto the chip in the passport. This must be the way the Malaysian Immigration Department knew I had not returned to the UK - they knew this immediately upon scanning my passport when I re-entered Malaysia.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Maybe take an inflatable mattress with you just in case :lol:

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

The difference is that in the case of many countries in the EU (not all, by the way), the registration rule is well publicised and no-one should be in any doubt of their obligations. There is no rule in Malaysia (that I have seen at least) that restricts the number of times someone can do a visa run. From the postings on this thread it would seem a return to one's home country from time-to-time (maybe annually) is vital, but I have not seen this as an official published rule.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Quite true. There is no other sensible option.

Also, for those who are contemplating making Malaysia their home, I would suggest it is wise to spend a year in the country to see if they like it. It's a big decision. In this case, tourist visas are the sensible choice. I know the MM2H visa can be cancelled by the holder before the ten years are up, but why would anyone rush in to getting one before they are fully committed to making Malaysia their home?

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

According to this source, and others I have read, that's probably not the case:
[ARCHIVED CONTENT] What are biometric passports? : Directgov - Travel and transport

The chip data is non-modifiable and contains biometric information, plus the other details from the photo page of the passport (D.o.B. for example) ONLY.

I can't explain how they knew that you hadn't been back to the UK, unless Malaysia has started using APIS:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanc...rmation_System

EDIT: You can read the info stored on the passport chip using an NFC Android phone and app. Instructions here: https://randomoracle.wordpress.com/2...hone-overview/

I did mine. Nothing sinister found.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

I don't think they can know whether you have been back to the UK or not but if would be a brave man who lied to an immigration officer and said he had when he hadn't.

If you think about it there are lots of ways of going back to the UK without directly flying back and passports are still not always scanned in Europe.

There is no doubt the MM2H visa is designed for non-working people who want to spend time regularly in Malaysia. It confers an official status which, given the beneficial tax treatment available to foreign residents, needs to be controlled and seen to be controlled.

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

Very interesting and useful info in this thread. It sounds like what I have in mind would be fine – I ‘d need a plan B in my back pocket but it would probably stay there. Of course I’d have a bit of a problem if I took out a 6-month tenancy, went abroad for a month leaving my stuff in Malaysia, then couldn’t get back in. Probably not insoluble though, and unlikely to happen.

Scratcher, I see you’re there for 3 months at a time - what do you do accommodation-wise?

Re: What is a visa run, anyway?
 

You'll be fine. If your plan is to spend six months in Malaysia each year, you'll only need to do one visa run per year. The Immigration Department will not refuse you entry. The most they would do is to issue a stamp for less than 90 days and then advise you to visit the Immigration Checkpoint in Butterworth. But don't worry, because it will never come to that.