Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Hello All

I'm from the UK and I've had an offer, following 2 interviews, from a company to join them in KL asap for a senior role on a project. It's an international company in the field of engineering but the KL office is more an alliance with a local company it seems (Sdn?) I'm surprised to learn that it's only 15 days of annual leave, a total of 3 weeks.

Is this normal and should I negotiate for more?

I know they have more public holidays in KL. Does anyone know how many?

I do value my time outside of work and want to explore as much as I can in the region aswell as having time to visit family in diff parts of the world incl back in the UK. 3 weeks seems rather less to achieve that.

It's a flat salary with no living or transportation allowance but the salary is still better than what I'm on in the UK, and I know the UK is more expensive to live in. hospital/surgery and medical insurance included, and a one way economy flight from uk to kl.

I know it's not the full on lucrative 120k expat packages that some westerners might get but I don't think I'll get another opportunity or a breakthrough like this.

At the same time, I always try to negoatiate. However, I feel that I won't be getting much more out of them if anything as they've been clear its more a local expat package.

Thoughts/opinions/advice?

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Not exactly, but it is MUCH more.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Here you go. google seems to be working for me today. :)
https://publicholidays.com.my/

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

The number of national holidays depend on the state you are in. You could ask the company to provide you with a list of the holidays they recognise/adhere to.
Please make sure that your company will take care of getting you the appropriate visa, before you start working here!

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Usually the companies give more days on CNY or Hari Raya, not just the official ones.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Sounds like a full on local package to me.
You say you like negotiating?
I'd say be careful how you point out any lack of holidays.
Telling a future employer you ...' value my time outside of work and want to explore as much as I can in the region aswell as having time to visit family in diff parts of the world incl back in the UK. 3 weeks seems rather less to achieve that.', might not go down too well.

Just saying, like, as I've had many staff come out from UK thinking they'd have a two year holiday rather than come out to work to further their career. They didn't stay around for long.

No reason not to ask for further details on holidays but know the answers as you seem to want to do before asking and be happy to get an answer you may not like.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Less and less folks on full on packages.... salary might be negotiated but leave days are usually company policy. Policy is rarely negotiated.
My staff acquire leave as they work. They get 1.5 days for every month completed plus public holidays. So takes them about 6 months to get a decent holiday time.
Public holidays are about 15 per year but not all companies give you a work day in lieu if it falls over the weekend.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Thank you lol

What visa would be most appropriate for me? Ive read into MM2H. I did pose the question and he just said a standard working visa. I don't think he was that clued up about it as he is based in the Singapore office himself and isnt fully versed with Malaysia methodologies. However im sure the KL mobilisation staff will sort it out Which visa should i be requesting or hoping for?

Thanks for the response. Ive already indicated and enquired about holidays and theyve said 15 days is the local amount and mentioned that USA only gets 10 lol. Although i thought that wasnt relevant at all. With the same argument, the UK gets 24-25 standard. Local customs i guess, its not a dealbreaker. I didnt dig into it too much. Im prepared to work and put the effort in but there should be a balance. Im keen to explore that region for sure and experience life in a different part of the world, not to just focus on career progression. Im not even sure how many hours im expecting to work or contracted to. I sense that I might be expected to give more than the contracted hours or that may be the local custom.

Its all part of the experience I guess. What were the main reasons for the UK folks leaving? Surely they were on good packages?

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Custom for locals is to stay at their desk, head down, until the boss has left.:rofl:

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

You certainly can not use a MM2H visa as that only allows to reside in Malaysia. MM2H is not a work permit. I am not well-versed in the visa types which allow you to legally be employed in Malaysia.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

I thought this only happened in India and other Asian countries. I definitely would not follow this custom, completely disagree with it.

Theres too much of a boss/authoratative culture in some countries workplaces, very different to the UK where people are given more flexibility and responsibility, as long as the work is done and this is probably more condusive to producing better results. Ive also seen through dealing with people in my travels ans international work that this boss culture also restricts people in using independent judgement or their own initiative. We should work collaboratively and collectively work together with our own skillsets to achieve a positive result for clients, and better develop ourselves.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

You state the offer is from an international company, do you mean a wholy owned Malaysia company that works internationally, or a company from another country which has set up an office in KL?

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

It's a company started in australia and has now become a group of companies in different locations, whos head office is in singapore. It has an office in Malaysia as a separate company so-to-speak but is owned by the company group, if that makes sense.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Yes, makes sense. My experience is that if the staff mainly come from another country, in your case Australia, will bring some of their native work culture. Worth checking out if you know anyone who has worked, or is working there.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

:unsure: and you wonder why Brits don't last long :popcorn:

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

You may be partially correct about why they might not stick around, but it doesn't mean the Brits way of doing things is wrong.

It's strange to me that people wait for the boss to leave the door only for them to then leave 5 minutes after, regardless of how many hours they are contracted to do. If work needs to be done to meet client or internal deadlines, then I agree one should try to remain and commit themselves to completing the work. In the UK, most people are prepared to do this.

Showing to your boss that you are staying seated for longer than him/her isn't a reflection of one's performance, and shouldn't be an expectation or a criteria to advance wiithin the company.

And we are probably going off topic a little. I bet there's a thread about this somewhere on these forums.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

In my experience, whether you work amongst Malaysians, Australians, or as in my case, Japanese, you need to observe their culture, be prepared to adapt the way you work, behave, and relate to people, and be extremely tolerant. I have friends who could not cope with the work life in Australia and left after a short while, and we have lost several here in Japan, some don't last a few weeks. It is tough working amongst different cultures but if you are willing, "When in Rome ...." it can have its rewards. :thumbup:

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Exactly, that is also my experience, from having worked more than a decade in Japan.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Which is precisely why I don't believe the OP will last very long.....

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

I'm prepared for the change in customs and culture, partly why I've decided to make the move

So I've had the paperwork come through and I'm carefully reviewing the wording. There's a couple of key typos I'll need to suggest to rectify but there are some clauses that I didn't expect...

One is that if I leave the company within 2 years, I'm expected to pay in full the recruitment fees, mobilisation costs like airfare, initial temporary accommodation, and shipping of personal efffects and misc expenses. I guess that's one way of discouraging your staff to leave. Although I have no real intention of leaving within 2 years, does this sound abnormal? I understand the time and investment they put into my recruitment but I've not come across this before.

My notice period is also 3 months without being able to offset it using annual leave. Is this the usual notice period? If after 2 years I decide I want to move on, 3 months notice can often be a deterrant for future prospective employers. I've experienced this before and been turned down for jobs on this basis or have not been seriously considered by the agent.

I will not be on the EPF, which I've just googled is related to retirement fund and pension plans.

I'm deciding whether or not I should discuss these clauses with them. I presume they will be standard for their company. Discussing and negotiating these will obviously ring alarm bells. However, personal circumstances can change any time and this is a big move for me into the semi-unknown.

So my questions are firstly are these common clauses within employment contracts and how receptive to negotiation will they be?

There are other clauses like the working hours being fixed and longer than I've ever worked but like I said I'm prepared for that and consider it to be part of the custom and working culture there. simlarly, there is no overtime and there is specific mention of working on saturdays if workload dictates. again that is expected.

however, the first two I've mentioned are sticking points, and they seem rather unusual to me, especially the 2 year lock with the signficant cost if broken.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

The two years lock-in period sounds familiar and I think it is reasonable if they pay travel and visa and other costs.
But I would try to negotiate the three months notice time.

Regarding working hours and based on my own experience the expat staff is often expected to put in the hours required, the pay is supposed to cover for that :-).

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Thanks for your swift feedback.

Interesting you say that, as my thought were to not negotiate the 3 months and discuss the 2 year lock. The 2 year lock is more in case of personal or family circumstances changing, my father or mother falling ill in the UK, and I have other family matters in parallel, which could change the cause of my life.

the 3 month notice is directly related to leaving the company for another so seems like a more sensitive clause to discuss. I suppose the family situation could also be applied here, but I wouldn't want to simply pin everything onto personal family circumstances. I may get a better opportunity even after 3 or 4 years, who knows, and the 3 months would be a blockade. It's still an awkward clause to discuss though.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

The three months notice is rather long and it may as you said block possible future career opportunities. Therefore it would be more important and I believe you could raise this point with the employer.
As for the two years 'lock-in' period, it is understandable from the employers view, after all they had some expenses for bringing you in.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

3 months is standard T&C for Malaysia employment

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

I was thinking about this last night.

The 2 year lock is understandable, but I've only ever seen this in the Middle East, rather than SEAsia. In the ME, it puts people in a terrible quandary if family circumstances change - imho it is worth investigating some exclusions allowed for that clause eg death or serious illness of family member.

I'd be more concerned about the contracted hours of working, including Saturdays, as my worry for you would be that this is how they try to cheat you out of public holidays.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

What happens if they decide to relase you within the 2 years? Are you expected to pay those charges?
I have checked with a couple of colleagues, one who works in the recruitment industry has never seen such a lock down, the other expat has seen it in an expat package for the Middle East but only for one year. caveat emptor - employer's risk.
When recruiting in the UK and Aus the terms were that the recruitment agency had to repay the fee if the person left within 3 months.
It is a big step moving abroad to work. If I was in your position I would get some local professional independant advice.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

Thanks for all your feedback.

The 2 year locking thing actually specifcally says if i resign or "get terminated for cause" then id had to pay it back. im not sure what "terminated for cause" means. it sounds like if they feel I'm not meeting their expectations in my job role, they would terminate my contract? or for miscondeuct? Does that not then make it a probationary period of 2 years?

The saturday working is not a requirement, but says that im expected to be flexibile in my working hours providing required efforts to complete the workload, including working on Saturdays whenever required.

I've also observed another interesting clause which states that they will reimburse me an X amount for relocating from family from INDIA to KL. errr....I'm from the UK? And this restrictive and very black and white contract now makes more sense. They probably have a majority indian workforce who need to be told the rules word for word and theyve used that contract template for me, but forgot to change the word "India" to "UK"

For me, that questions the entire contract as it seems apparent it is designed for an employee from the specific region.

One thing to bare in mind that the role is at a senior management grade so a 3 month notice period makes sense to an extent. We have that in the UK also.

Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts
 

FWIW I've seen lockin before when the employer has gone to expense in recruitment but usually decreasing, so leave within 6 months 100%, 12 months 75%, you get the idea. Maybe that's an option to look into.