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Remembrance 11.11.11

Remembrance 11.11.11

Old Nov 9th 2019, 2:58 pm
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

My maternal grandfather had a “good war.” He commanded a Free French troopship in the Indian Ocean, with its home port being Bombay. Among other voyages, he transported Italian and German prisoners from Egypt to South Africa, and Australian and Indian troops to Egypt. His ship was the last merchant ship to succeed in escaping Singapore, just a few days before the surrender. He transported over a thousand women and children refugees from Singapore to Bombay. Several of these people he remained friends with for the rest of his life, I met a few of them.

My grandmother & my mother escaped from their home in Egypt in 1942 (when a German invasion seemed imminent) and were able to join my grandfather in Bombay. They apparently had a comfortable war there, no shortage of food or consumer goods! My mother recalls meeting Ravi Shankar there, at a reception after a concert. Of course they stayed in touch with family back in South Shields, and heard about the rationing, the bombing, all the brothers and cousins who died.
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Old Nov 9th 2019, 3:05 pm
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
My mother’s family were from South Shields, and most of the men folk were merchant mariners. A very high proportion of them were lost at sea - not just in war, but in peace time too. My great grandfather, master of a collier bringing coal from Seaham to London, died in 1917 when his ship was torpedoed by a U-boat off Spurn Head. One of his sons died in the 1930s; master of an oil tanker bound from Galveston, TX, to North Shields, he was lost overboard one night.

So my great grandmother was relieved when her grandson Harry decided to volunteer for the RAF in 1940, rather than follow the family tradition of serving on a merchant ship. He was a sergeant, flight engineer of a Lancaster bomber of 50 Sqdn, RAFVR. He died on the night of 22 May, 1944, along with the entire crew when their aircraft was shot down over Germany. The men were buried in the local cemetery with military honours by the German authorities. Subsequently, he was reburied by the CWGC at the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery.

There is an inscription on his headstone:

”YOU LIVE WITH US IN MEMORY STILL, NOT JUST TODAY BUT ALWAYS. DAD, MAM AND BROTHERS”
During and immediately after WW2, Attleborough hospital was used for Norwich routine surgical ops. German prisoners of war worked in the gardens. Apparently as a baby I was held up by a prisoner to wave to my mother, in for an op. She was at a window (children not allowed in). Many POWs stayed on in the UK after the war.
As said above, mother lost both parents as a baby in WW1.
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Old Nov 9th 2019, 3:25 pm
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

For Australians who were born decades after the end of World War 2, this song reminded them that 'the calm they breathe was hard fought and won'. The video was recorded among crosses for the fallen, which for the band (Midnight Oil) was both a tribute to those who lost their lives and also a stark reminder of the cruelty and horror of war. As the lyrics say, these should not be forgotten years.
The song is deeply meaningful for me, but if anyone thinks it's inappropriate for this thread then I'll remove it.

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Old Nov 9th 2019, 4:03 pm
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Whilst attention is always - and justifiably - focused on those who fought and/or served, we should also remember those who had no choice, those who died "at home", whether in London, or Berlin or in any of the other cities ravaged by attacks.

My grandfather fought in WW1, my father, born in neutral Ireland, lost his job aged 20 to a married Englishman evading conscription and ended up coming to the UK. (For those who consider bigotry a foreign thing, look away now). He landed at Fishguard in late 1941 and was ordered to join other men travelling to Cornwall "to build roads".... When he pointed out that he was a qualified electrician, the short reply was that he was a "Paddy", and "Paddies build roads". Luckily, he was "saved" by his union card - even the bigots didn't want to fight the unions.... So he travelled to Bath, because the old Bath stone quarries (think mines) were being converted into underground (bomb-proof) factories and storage (Royal Enfield were there until the 1970s). As a "spark", he had some status in the work, but in Bath, people would still cross the road to avoid him if he was identified as Irish and he had to move digs every few weeks - truly the time of "No dogs, no Blacks, No irish" - whatever revisionists might say. This came as a shock to "Mammy's favourite", brought up by a mother who told him, when he said about his other option of joining the Irish Army "If you join any army, it'll be John Bull's, not the khaki dyed green"

Then, in 1942, the undefended City of Bath was blitzed in a Baedecker raid. For a reason he never really explained, my father joined other volunteers trying to dig out victims of the raid. All he could ever tell me was that he could do the work because "they were no his people". Corpses of the victims were moved to a large church in the City centre - amongst them a "Young laddie with ginger hair", who had a gold watch on his wrist. The next night, that church was bombed - and when they moved the "laddie" once more, my father saw he no longer had a watch.......... Near to where we later lived, the shelter for the local police station took a direct hit and again my father volunteered to move the victims along with some Scottish soldiers. Each man was given a bottle of whisky to drown the horrific sights in that shelter - I'll not say what he told me here, but none of the occupants was whole - and they arrived after a neighbour, in panic, had run from her shelter to that one. I remember her as a teenager, still "away with the fairies" and spending regular bouts in Wells Asylum (her daughter was my older sister's best friend).....

My father, finally got to use his skills on Radar testing and spent his war testing and fitting Radar sets into the bombers at airfields on the hills around Bath - and he witnessed the return of some of the bombers from the "1000 bomber raids", with huge holes from flak and most of the crew dead or injured. He never forgot seeing a B17 being "hosed out" to prepare it for its new crew. Even I remember bombsites in my youth, places where people died in their homes. I remember the "Midland Bridge" across the Avon with it's iron lattice pierced by a piece of shrapnel still embedded in it and the stories of bodies blown out of the graveyard and hastily re-interred. God knows what it was like in London. or Coventry or Dresden. War sucks.


Last edited by macliam; Nov 9th 2019 at 4:18 pm.
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Old Nov 9th 2019, 8:26 pm
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Whilst attention is always - and justifiably - focused on those who fought and/or served, we should also remember those who had no choice, those who died "at home", whether in London, or Berlin or in any of the other cities ravaged by attacks.

My grandfather fought in WW1, my father, born in neutral Ireland, lost his job aged 20 to a married Englishman evading conscription and ended up coming to the UK. (For those who consider bigotry a foreign thing, look away now). He landed at Fishguard in late 1941 and was ordered to join other men travelling to Cornwall "to build roads".... When he pointed out that he was a qualified electrician, the short reply was that he was a "Paddy", and "Paddies build roads". Luckily, he was "saved" by his union card - even the bigots didn't want to fight the unions.... So he travelled to Bath, because the old Bath stone quarries (think mines) were being converted into underground (bomb-proof) factories and storage (Royal Enfield were there until the 1970s). As a "spark", he had some status in the work, but in Bath, people would still cross the road to avoid him if he was identified as Irish and he had to move digs every few weeks - truly the time of "No dogs, no Blacks, No irish" - whatever revisionists might say. This came as a shock to "Mammy's favourite", brought up by a mother who told him, when he said about his other option of joining the Irish Army "If you join any army, it'll be John Bull's, not the khaki dyed green"

Then, in 1942, the undefended City of Bath was blitzed in a Baedecker raid. For a reason he never really explained, my father joined other volunteers trying to dig out victims of the raid. All he could ever tell me was that he could do the work because "they were no his people". Corpses of the victims were moved to a large church in the City centre - amongst them a "Young laddie with ginger hair", who had a gold watch on his wrist. The next night, that church was bombed - and when they moved the "laddie" once more, my father saw he no longer had a watch.......... Near to where we later lived, the shelter for the local police station took a direct hit and again my father volunteered to move the victims along with some Scottish soldiers. Each man was given a bottle of whisky to drown the horrific sights in that shelter - I'll not say what he told me here, but none of the occupants was whole - and they arrived after a neighbour, in panic, had run from her shelter to that one. I remember her as a teenager, still "away with the fairies" and spending regular bouts in Wells Asylum (her daughter was my older sister's best friend).....

My father, finally got to use his skills on Radar testing and spent his war testing and fitting Radar sets into the bombers at airfields on the hills around Bath - and he witnessed the return of some of the bombers from the "1000 bomber raids", with huge holes from flak and most of the crew dead or injured. He never forgot seeing a B17 being "hosed out" to prepare it for its new crew. Even I remember bombsites in my youth, places where people died in their homes. I remember the "Midland Bridge" across the Avon with it's iron lattice pierced by a piece of shrapnel still embedded in it and the stories of bodies blown out of the graveyard and hastily re-interred. God knows what it was like in London. or Coventry or Dresden. War sucks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDyip7SIJkQ
Well and effectively expressed. There were bomb sites still visible in London through the 60s, at least. The death toll was huge.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 12:24 am
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

St Luke's church in Liverpool was badly damaged in the 1941 Liverpool Blitz. The building has been left as it was, as a memorial. Locally it's known as 'the bombed out church'. Tell anyone in Liverpool that you'll meet them at the bombed out church and they'll know exactly where you mean.

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Old Nov 10th 2019, 2:15 am
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse View Post
St Luke's church in Liverpool was badly damaged in the 1941 Liverpool Blitz. The building has been left as it was, as a memorial. Locally it's known as 'the bombed out church'. Tell anyone in Liverpool that you'll meet them at the bombed out church and they'll know exactly where you mean.

Same thing in Plymouth



And the Royal Garrison church in Portsmouth.



And Holyrood Church in Southampton.





All south coast cities with naval ports, like Liverpool.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 2:22 am
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Two from Bristol




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Old Nov 10th 2019, 2:27 am
  #24  
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

My maternal grandfather was killed in France during WWI, a short time before the Battle of the Somme. DH and I went to France this year to find his grave. The British Cemetery is just outside Lille. Hundreds of British and Canadian graves. The cemetery is very well kept, and it is very moving to be there. GF had four small children and one on the way. It was a sad and moving visit.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 2:37 am
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Originally Posted by Mallory View Post
The British Cemetery is just outside Lille. Hundreds of British and Canadian graves. The cemetery is very well kept, and it is very moving to be there.
I found that with Suda Bay War Cemetery on Crete. Uniformity of the gravestones I think. Seems to emphasise the numbers.

No connection with anyone, just a visit on a tour while on holiday.

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Old Nov 10th 2019, 4:13 am
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Same thing in Plymouth



And the Royal Garrison church in Portsmouth.



And Holyrood Church in Southampton.





All south coast cities with naval ports, like Liverpool.
I know there's lots of them, St Luke's is the only one I've seen though.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 8:50 am
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

My uncle.

Leading Aircraftman U/T Navigator, Harold James Sapsed. Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve who died on 08 February 1943 Age 20.

"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old: Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them."
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 12:10 pm
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Another year passed..... honourto those who gave their youth to fight for their beliefs and respect those who died for them, be they British, Irish, German or any other nationality.
Ar dheis Dé go raibh a n-anamacha uaisle uilig - May all their noble souls sit at the right of God.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 1:21 pm
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
My mother’s family were from South Shields, and most of the men folk were merchant mariners. A very high proportion of them were lost at sea - not just in war, but in peace time too. My great grandfather, master of a collier bringing coal from Seaham to London, died in 1917 when his ship was torpedoed by a U-boat off Spurn Head. One of his sons died in the 1930s; master of an oil tanker bound from Galveston, TX, to North Shields, he was lost overboard one night.

So my great grandmother was relieved when her grandson Harry decided to volunteer for the RAF in 1940, rather than follow the family tradition of serving on a merchant ship. He was a sergeant, flight engineer of a Lancaster bomber of 50 Sqdn, RAFVR. He died on the night of 22 May, 1944, along with the entire crew when their aircraft was shot down over Germany. The men were buried in the local cemetery with military honours by the German authorities. Subsequently, he was reburied by the CWGC at the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery.

There is an inscription on his headstone:

”YOU LIVE WITH US IN MEMORY STILL, NOT JUST TODAY BUT ALWAYS. DAD, MAM AND BROTHERS”

Theres a memory robin.... My OH's uncle is also buried in the Reichswald Forest war cemetary. His aunt never knew anything about it until we traced him after we moved to the Netherlands in the 80's He was shot down in a Canadian Airforce Halifax ...but also a Geordie from Gateshead. We found his grave and my D's laid yellow roses on it ( for remembrance ) took photos and sent them to her.... 48+ years later.after his death One can only imagine the pain of never knowing what happened to the man she had married only 18 months before his plane crashed
The cemetery is a beautiful place ,cared for and kept in immaculate condition. every nationality is there, including Germans

I feel now though that the memories should become more private ones .I have a growing unease that they are being used more and more for political purposes. The ceremonies becoming longer and more lavish ( from 8am to 11.45 pm yesterday)

The war is also mentioned much more often on TV .. comes into so many programmes (ad hoc it would seem.) In the Antiques road show... In Country File... in Escape to the Country.. for heavens sake ,. where there is no true relevance . I'm not the only one who has noticed this on British TV. I can only believe it is to remind us that certain members of the EU are our natural enemy and we don't belong there. I can't think of any other motive than this to keep reminding us so often and so vigorously
My thoughts on the subject
I don't think any other country does this .'sentimentalising' war. Other people's pain and loss. make propaganda out of it. ? except the Brits.
Lets indeed remember our family members.. those of us still alive to remember .by all means Let's honour them for their sacrifice .ALL the young men and women around the world , caught up in a few evil peoples plans for power and control ..but can't we now ,after all these years , do it privately ,in our cities ,towns and villages .our own homes. It shouldn't be for spectacle ,entertainment and TV ratings.....or to help a government who feels we need a prod in a direction they want us to go.?

Its' my thoughts on the subject ...and I accept it may upset some ...apologies if it does... Spent enough time laying wreaths on war cemeteries in the UK and the Netherlands .
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 1:59 pm
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Default Re: Remembrance 11.11.11

Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
Theres a memory robin.... My OH's uncle is also buried in the Reichswald Forest war cemetary. His aunt never knew anything about it until we traced him after we moved to the Netherlands in the 80's He was shot down in a Canadian Airforce Halifax ...but also a Geordie from Gateshead. We found his grave and my D's laid yellow roses on it ( for remembrance ) took photos and sent them to her.... 48+ years later.after his death One can only imagine the pain of never knowing what happened to the man she had married only 18 months before his plane crashed
The cemetery is a beautiful place ,cared for and kept in immaculate condition. every nationality is there, including Germans
.
Thanks GeniB. I would like to visit the Reichswald Forest cemetery, I was interested to see it’s close to the Dutch border and just a short distance from Nijmegen. I know I have other relatives buried there, but also close friends of my father’s who died while attempting to cross the Rhine. He never talked about this but I know from his regimental history that they had a catastrophic crossing, his colleagues were killed and he was wounded.

I’d like to mention the excellent Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. For instance, here’s their page about the Reichswald Forest cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery...-war-cemetery/

Using the search for people, it’s pretty easy to find a record for British and Commonwealth people who died in WWI, WWII, and other wars. This includes civilians - so if you have family who died in Britain in the bombing, or those whose ships were torpedoed (for instance) they should be in there. It gives full details of the individual, where they’re buried, and (often) their next of kin, so it’s an excellent resource for family history research.
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