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this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Old Nov 23rd 2008, 11:56 am
  #46  
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by lardyl View Post
Yeah, our sweaties don't mess about on the field but are the salt of the earth. My family are part scots and we ahve had many a great time with that side of the family - my favourite uncle (named me son after him) had a slice of wembley turf in his garden, and he was a hell of a gardener BTW.
But they do get hung up on the rivalry with the English and its the old story of the big guy next door - maybe a little harsh but all the symptoms are there - IN SOME CASES.

As far as England reaching the top flight with the Germans, French, etc. The other night shows that in Berlin England are pretty good and your point regarding Spain is pretty well made - England are more consistent than the Spanish over the past 20 years. England could be up there with the rest of that group with a good manager/coach *at the right time*.

Seems that we've had the wrong one when the players were good enough, and we've had some bad breaks in the competitions, 90, 96, 98, 06 all spring to mind - no excuses and I don't think we deserved much more at those (except 90 and 96 perhaps?) but we would have been pretty good value as finalists in at least one of those tournaments.....IMHO of course.
England are traditionally good when it comes to friendlies anyway and this is part of the problem. The good results that they get in friendlies quite often are heralded as great victories and lead the press and footballing public to believe that great things lie ahead for the national team, when in reality its just a false picture.

Every team that wins a major tournament (Greece the exception) Does it with at least 7 or 8 world class players in their side with the other 3 or 4 being international class BUT no weaknesses.

Take the current England side Ferdinand, Terry, Gerrard or Lampard (because they can`t play together) and Rooney and that is 4 world class players. They have a number of international class players in Beckham, A.Cole etc but the problem is they have a lot of weaknesses especially with goalkeepers etc. As the England side stands, they will win nothing with the players that they have got. Capello will get England to 2010 and at most, the best they can hope for there are the Quarters.

To be honest Capello has never worked with such a poor group of players in his career. In his time as club manager he has worked at AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid and on all ocassions had world class players not just in his starting 11 but also sitting on the bench as well, with England he doesn`t have this......................When he watches matches in the Premiership that field larger numbers of English players clubs like Stoke City, WBA etc he must get the shock of his life
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Old Nov 24th 2008, 5:08 am
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by Jules Europe View Post
England are traditionally good when it comes to friendlies anyway and this is part of the problem. The good results that they get in friendlies quite often are heralded as great victories and lead the press and footballing public to believe that great things lie ahead for the national team, when in reality its just a false picture.

Every team that wins a major tournament (Greece the exception) Does it with at least 7 or 8 world class players in their side with the other 3 or 4 being international class BUT no weaknesses.

Take the current England side Ferdinand, Terry, Gerrard or Lampard (because they can`t play together) and Rooney and that is 4 world class players. They have a number of international class players in Beckham, A.Cole etc but the problem is they have a lot of weaknesses especially with goalkeepers etc. As the England side stands, they will win nothing with the players that they have got. Capello will get England to 2010 and at most, the best they can hope for there are the Quarters.

To be honest Capello has never worked with such a poor group of players in his career. In his time as club manager he has worked at AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid and on all ocassions had world class players not just in his starting 11 but also sitting on the bench as well, with England he doesn`t have this......................When he watches matches in the Premiership that field larger numbers of English players clubs like Stoke City, WBA etc he must get the shock of his life
Having watched a lot of English football lately, and I mean a lot, most of it is pish, with the odd exception. Arsenal have lost a couple of games lately and people are calling for the managers head. Absolutely unbelievable. Arsene wengers attitude of rearing youngsters is admirable but right away when they lose a couple, its "he's lost it, sack him etc. If Arsenal win 5 or 6 in a row, then they're all shouting he's the best thing since sliced bread and he did it with youngsters. Some even putting him forward as the next England manager. Wenger has more sense than to touch that job with a bargepole. Graham Taylor springs to mind. The media called for him to get the job and absolutely crucified him when it all went wrong. No person should have to go through what they put Taylor through. The English want success and think by bringing in a foreign manager, they'll get it. Wrong...The manager only has a certain number of players at his disposal and the majority are not world class, although the English media would have you believe they are. He can only do the job with the tools (no pun intended) he has been given. Ferguson (another foreigner) would give advice but under no circumstances would he take it and the FA wouldn't want him as he has a spine. I don't know the answer but I do know that the level of expectation is far too high and until it is lowered, then the English national team will continue to fall on their arse and I will keep laughing.
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Old Nov 24th 2008, 7:44 am
  #48  
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by Jules Europe View Post
...Every team that wins a major tournament (Greece the exception) Does it with at least 7 or 8 world class players in their side with the other 3 or 4 being international class BUT no weaknesses.
....To be honest Capello has never worked with such a poor group of players in his career. In his time as club manager he has worked at AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid and on all ocassions had world class players not just in his starting 11 but also sitting on the bench as well, with England he doesn`t have this......................When he watches matches in the Premiership that field larger numbers of English players clubs like Stoke City, WBA etc he must get the shock of his life
mmm.....
what about Germany in Euro 96 and W/C 90, they probably had 4 or 5 world class, not 7 or 8.......although that world cup was probably the worst quality since, who knows when........
1 Bodo ILLGNER 07/04/1967 GK
2 Stefan REUTER 16/10/1966 DF
3 Andreas BREHME 09/11/1960 DF
4 Juergen KOHLER 06/10/1965 DF
5 Klaus AUGENTHALER 26/09/1957 DF
6 Guido BUCHWALD 24/01/1961 DF
7 Pierre LITTBARSKI 16/04/1960 FW
8 Thomas HAESSLER 30/05/1966 MF
9 Rudi VOELLER 13/04/1960 FW
10 Lothar MATTHAEUS 21/03/1961 MF
11 Frank MILL 23/07/1958 FW
12 Raimond AUMANN 12/10/1963 GK
13 Karlheinz RIEDLE 16/09/1965 FW
14 Thomas BERTHOLD 12/11/1964 DF
15 Uwe BEIN 26/09/1960 MF
16 Paul STEINER 23/01/1957 DF
17 Andreas MOELLER 02/09/1967 MF
18 Juergen KLINSMANN 30/07/1964 FW
19 Hans PFLUEGLER 27/03/1960 DF
20 Olaf THON 01/05/1966 MF
21 Guenther HERMANN 06/12/1960 MF
22 Andreas KOEPKE 12/03/1962 GK
in bold world or international-class...?? and Voller probably past it?
Compared to the England squad:
1 Peter SHILTON 18/09/1949 GK
2 Gary STEVENS 27/03/1963 DF
3 Stuart PEARCE 24/04/1962 DF
4 Neil WEBB 30/07/1963 MF
5 Des WALKER 26/11/1965 DF
6 Terry BUTCHER 28/12/1958 DF
7 Bryan ROBSON 11/01/1957 MF
8 Chris WADDLE 14/12/1960 MF
9 Peter BEARDSLEY 18/01/1961 FW
10 Gary LINEKER 30/11/1960 FW
11 John BARNES 07/11/1963 FW

12 Paul PARKER 04/04/1964 DF
13 Chris WOODS 14/11/1959 GK
14 Mark WRIGHT 01/08/1963 DF
15 Tony DORIGO 31/12/1965 DF
16 Steve MC MAHON 20/08/1961 MF
17 David PLATT 10/06/1966 FW
18 Steve HODGE 25/10/1962 FW
19 Paul GASCOIGNE 27/05/1967 MF
20 Trevor STEVEN 21/09/1963 MF
21 Steve BULL 28/03/1965 FW
22 David SEAMAN 19/09/1963 GK
However, there was more great ammunition for the Argentina/Maradona-haters of the world in that tournament......our sweaty friends probably stopped watching after Costa Rica...so they can still roll out Maradona, the world's best.....???
I had the joy of watching the semi- in a flat belonging to a German mate.....what fun......
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Old Nov 24th 2008, 8:07 am
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by framac67 View Post
Having watched a lot of English football lately, and I mean a lot, most of it is pish, ..... I don't know the answer but I do know that the level of expectation is far too high and until it is lowered, then the English national team will continue to fall on their arse and I will keep laughing.
premiership or internationals?
Graham Taylor was a great manager, and has an amazing understanding of the game - lots of players and not just the stars, including some I know in NZ who were coached by him say he was the best manager and coach they ever played for. He was unfairly criticised by the media and lots of "fans".
But then you'd be amazed who the players think of as their best captain.....I've heard some, again not internationals but seasoned pros, who put down some real odd ones when you ask them straight. So it is a funny old game.
I reckon Capello might surprise some of the seasoned doubters north of the border and he could get the England team to produce at more than the sum of the parts. For me Wenger is too much of an analyst and he almost has an obsession with getting "young" players through - that can work with some teams you are playing but the likes of Stoke, the Albion, Bolton (under Sam the man), etc will give them trouble as long as you don't have the strength in the body or mind to overcome the other team's physical game and spirit. Also doing the dirty on your old stagers like Gallas will backfire and you lose the team's discipline as the youngsters need someone there on the pitch to rally them. If it continues not to work then it might be time to move on - maybe as youth development in some really big club??
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Old Nov 24th 2008, 9:20 am
  #50  
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by framac67 View Post
Having watched a lot of English football lately, and I mean a lot, most of it is pish, with the odd exception. Arsenal have lost a couple of games lately and people are calling for the managers head. Absolutely unbelievable. Arsene wengers attitude of rearing youngsters is admirable but right away when they lose a couple, its "he's lost it, sack him etc. If Arsenal win 5 or 6 in a row, then they're all shouting he's the best thing since sliced bread and he did it with youngsters. Some even putting him forward as the next England manager. Wenger has more sense than to touch that job with a bargepole. Graham Taylor springs to mind. The media called for him to get the job and absolutely crucified him when it all went wrong. No person should have to go through what they put Taylor through. The English want success and think by bringing in a foreign manager, they'll get it. Wrong...The manager only has a certain number of players at his disposal and the majority are not world class, although the English media would have you believe they are. He can only do the job with the tools (no pun intended) he has been given. Ferguson (another foreigner) would give advice but under no circumstances would he take it and the FA wouldn't want him as he has a spine. I don't know the answer but I do know that the level of expectation is far too high and until it is lowered, then the English national team will continue to fall on their arse and I will keep laughing.
I reguarly watch both La Liga and Premiership matches on a weekly basis and can tell you the quality of the games in Spain are higher.

Disagree with the fact that a good foreign manager won`t bring success, a perfect example of this is Greece in EC 2004 for years they had a Greek managers and got nowhere, then they brought in Rehhagel and won a major tournament. They won without any world class players but on the other hand had no real weaknesses. They won based on discipline, game plan, fitness and belief along with some luck something a foreign manager brought to them.

The press will always hype up average England players making them look like world class material but the reality says different.

The problem is that England for several years now have had a dearth of quality English managers and the appointment of Steve Mclaren was evidence of this. Here was a man that usually finished at best mid table with Middlesborough and took them to a UEFA cup final where they were well beaten by Sevilla. It was an appointment that smacked of desperation.
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Old Nov 24th 2008, 9:37 am
  #51  
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by lardyl View Post
mmm.....
what about Germany in Euro 96 and W/C 90, they probably had 4 or 5 world class, not 7 or 8.......although that world cup was probably the worst quality since, who knows when........in bold world or international-class...?? and Voller probably past it?
Compared to the England squad:

However, there was more great ammunition for the Argentina/Maradona-haters of the world in that tournament......our sweaty friends probably stopped watching after Costa Rica...so they can still roll out Maradona, the world's best.....???
I had the joy of watching the semi- in a flat belonging to a German mate.....what fun......
The German side that won WC 1990 was probably the last great German side but the German team that won EC 1996 won it through riding on their luck.

World class players from your list in my opinion but also neither of these 2 teams had much in the way of weakeness which is why both teams were capable of going the whole way.
Germany: Illgner, Brehme, Kohler, Buchwald, Voeller, Matthaus, Moeller, Klinsmann=8
England: Shilton, Pearce, Walker, Beardsley, Lineker, Gascoigne=6

Didn`t include Seaman because only one goalkeeper starts and also Bryan Robson was too often injured and if you could have combined Waddle and Barnes into one well you would have had some player.

When I say a team needs 7 or 8 world class players, I am referring to the ideal situation for a coach and have quite often heard international coaches express this need over the years.
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Old Dec 8th 2008, 12:42 pm
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by Call me AL View Post
I'm not English so I don't really care,but imo individually the English players are quality. Collectively the English team are shite. Its been this way for a long time.
english players are quality but the fact is they are not quality enough
lets get real here - the french,spanish,italians,dutch, and brazilians are better
coaching in england is inferior to all these and other countries from youth right through to senior level and that includes team play coaching - not just individual stuff
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Old Dec 8th 2008, 12:59 pm
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by lardyl View Post
Yeah, our sweaties don't mess about on the field but are the salt of the earth. My family are part scots and we ahve had many a great time with that side of the family - my favourite uncle (named me son after him) had a slice of wembley turf in his garden, and he was a hell of a gardener BTW.
But they do get hung up on the rivalry with the English and its the old story of the big guy next door - maybe a little harsh but all the symptoms are there - IN SOME CASES.

As far as England reaching the top flight with the Germans, French, etc. The other night shows that in Berlin England are pretty good and your point regarding Spain is pretty well made - England are more consistent than the Spanish over the past 20 years. England could be up there with the rest of that group with a good manager/coach *at the right time*.

Seems that we've had the wrong one when the players were good enough, and we've had some bad breaks in the competitions, 90, 96, 98, 06 all spring to mind - no excuses and I don't think we deserved much more at those (except 90 and 96 perhaps?) but we would have been pretty good value as finalists in at least one of those tournaments.....IMHO of course.
england were never potentially good enough in the 90s and this decade
80s (barnes,lineker,hoddle,steven,stevens,shilton,robs on) and previous however they were actually a relatively strong side, but they hit a plateua and the rest of the top nations evolved and left them even further behind
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Old Dec 8th 2008, 6:17 pm
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by cockney pommy View Post
england were never potentially good enough in the 90s and this decade
80s (barnes,lineker,hoddle,steven,stevens,shilton,robs on) and previous however they were actually a relatively strong side, but they hit a plateua and the rest of the top nations evolved and left them even further behind
The same arguement has also been raised against the German national team and yet they still somehow manage to reach finals despite never being technically very good.
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Old Dec 9th 2008, 1:19 pm
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

u9's and younger - 5 a side only (futsal and futebol de salao and outdoor version)
10,11 and 12 - 7 aside outdoor AND the above
13 and 14 - 9 a side AND 5 a side
15 - 11 a side but still combined with the above
also more and better technical training and less emphasis on results for kids - it should just be fun and no pressure
if this happens eventually england will become great but that twat howard wilkinson seems determined to delay this and think he knows better than the rest of the world
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Old Dec 9th 2008, 1:21 pm
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by cockney pommy View Post
u9's and younger - 5 a side only (futsal and futebol de salao and outdoor version)
10,11 and 12 - 7 aside outdoor AND the above
13 and 14 - 9 a side AND 5 a side
15 - 11 a side but still combined with the above
also more and better technical training and less emphasis on results for kids - it should just be fun and no pressure
if this happens eventually england will become great but that twat howard wilkinson seems determined to delay this and think he knows better than the rest of the world
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Old Dec 16th 2008, 2:19 am
  #57  
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by Call me AL View Post
I'm not English so I don't really care,but imo individually the English players are quality. Collectively the English team are shite. Its been this way for a long time.
If English players were that good, then they'd be playing in other European leagues. I laughed when Real Madrid signed Jonathan Woodgate as he's well-known to be injury-prone.
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Old Dec 16th 2008, 2:45 am
  #58  
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by cockney pommy View Post
u9's and younger - 5 a side only (futsal and futebol de salao and outdoor version)
10,11 and 12 - 7 aside outdoor AND the above
13 and 14 - 9 a side AND 5 a side
15 - 11 a side but still combined with the above
also more and better technical training and less emphasis on results for kids - it should just be fun and no pressure
if this happens eventually england will become great but that twat howard wilkinson seems determined to delay this and think he knows better than the rest of the world

this is worth checking out as it speaks a lot of sense....
http://www.giveusbackourgame.co.uk/
one problem is that parents become too pushy too early for their kids (or pushy *at all* IMHO) and this rubs off on coaches, who are often parents themselves.....
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Old Dec 16th 2008, 3:47 am
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by lardyl View Post
one problem is that parents become too pushy too early for their kids (or pushy *at all* IMHO) and this rubs off on coaches, who are often parents themselves.....
The same problems are/have been occurring in kids hockey here too.
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Old Dec 16th 2008, 4:05 am
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Default Re: this is why englands football team will be one of the best in 15 years time

Originally Posted by CaptainHook View Post
The same problems are/have been occurring in kids hockey here too.
yep, even happens in some areas in "midgets" football in NZ, but not as severe, it seems as in the UK - based on that site anyway
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