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VAR question

VAR question

Old Jun 24th 2022, 5:40 pm
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Default VAR question

I don't follow football that closely (used to be a big fan as a kid, watched England win the world cup in '66, Chelsea win the FA cup in '70, etc but not so much in recent years) but have started watching again. I just discovered that VAR is now a 'thing', and read this 'FAQ' - https://www.premierleague.com/news/1293321 .

Can someone explain what 'mistaken identity' means, in the context of that article?

Also, I'm confused by this - on the one hand, I read "VAR is used only for "clear and obvious errors" or "serious missed incidents" in four match-changing situations: goals; penalty decisions; direct red-card incidents; and mistaken identity.". But then, I also read "For subjective decisions, either the referee informs the VAR that a decision should be reviewed or the VAR identifies a “clear and obvious error” in one of the four match-changing situations and communicates this to the referee." This introduces the notion of a 'subjective decision' as distinct from the 'clear and obvious error' part. So can the ref voluntarily ask for VAR assistance in a wider range of 'subjective' situations?

Are there a minimum number of cameras now at all games to support this?

Also, I note a reference in the article as follows: "The FA's retrospective disciplinary process remains for other incidents not captured by the match officials or VAR." Does this mean, if a player is seen to be taking a dive, they can be penalized in some way after the fact? If so, that would seem like a very good development.

Forgive me if this has been debated to death here already; I did a search of "VAR" in the forum and didn't find much.


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Old Jun 24th 2022, 6:14 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

Mistaken identity is when player A fouls someone but the ref thought it was player B and books him instead, it doesn't happen too often.

As for the clear and obvious bit your guess is as good as mine. I've need numerous goals ruled out for offside that were a case of the player being an armpit ahead of someone, for me that's neither clear or obvious yet every goal is checked. Also because yellow cards aren't checked (except for mistaken identity) a player can get 2 yellows which means a red and he's off even if one of the yellows is undeserved as a red from 2 yellows can't be checked but a straight red can be.

As far as I'm aware a ref can't request VAR be reviewed, if they don't contact him he/she has to just assume they didn't make an error.

As for the retrospective actions that's more for violent conduct, it relies on the ref not noticing and punishing the offense though, if the ref does then his punishment is deemed final regardless of how crocked your player is by the challenge such as Pickford taking Virgil van Dijk out for the season but getting off scott free. They don't use it for diving retrospectively, in an ideal world that would be caught during the game and punished on the spot.

To add to the fun they've changed the rules pretty much ever season since VAR came in and how strictly they implement them and pretty much every game has some debatable decisions from it.
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Old Jun 24th 2022, 7:27 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

Offside is covered by a different part to the clear and obvious stuff.
But factual decisions such as offsides, and the issue of whether a player is inside or outside the penalty area, are not subject to the "clear and obvious" test. If the VAR sees an error has been made in such a situation they will intervene, regardless of how marginal the decision is.
Of course it's nonsense that an armpit from a slightly leaning body may determine whether offside or not. That was previously adequately covered by the "benefit of the doubt to t he attacker" except that few linesmen ever did that. The only logical explanation was that the linesman had no doubt. I always said they should be made to sit in front of a TV and shown their decisions when they "had no doubt" and shown just how wrong, how often they were so that it did give them some bloody doubt in future.

The problem with offside is while we'd all like to see "level" accepted as onside, we all have different definitions of what level is. The torso? Any part of the bodies overlapping like the front foot of one and the back foot of the other, which means there could be a yard in it.

Is the head being in front an advantage when the attacker plays the ball with his foot. What if the attacker's stride places him a foot ahead of the defender but because they're not in sync in the next split second it's the defender whose stride is now ahead...and they still haven't reached the ball. There are just too many variables involved whether someone has actually gained an advantage from the offside position.

If we are to have an offside law then either it should be exactly as they are now doing it, or it should be the foot only, regardless of body angle or position. Unless, of course, they can develop some kind of implant in the players' bodies that sends a signal to the ref like GLT.

There was something about using thicker lines for the season just gone as if it was going to reduce the "silly" ones but I didn't see any evidence of that.

Last edited by BristolUK; Jun 24th 2022 at 7:29 pm.
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Old Jun 24th 2022, 8:34 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Offside is covered by a different part to the clear and obvious stuff.
Of course it's nonsense that an armpit from a slightly leaning body may determine whether offside or not. That was previously adequately covered by the "benefit of the doubt to t he attacker" except that few linesmen ever did that. The only logical explanation was that the linesman had no doubt. I always said they should be made to sit in front of a TV and shown their decisions when they "had no doubt" and shown just how wrong, how often they were so that it did give them some bloody doubt in future.

The problem with offside is while we'd all like to see "level" accepted as onside, we all have different definitions of what level is. The torso? Any part of the bodies overlapping like the front foot of one and the back foot of the other, which means there could be a yard in it.

Is the head being in front an advantage when the attacker plays the ball with his foot. What if the attacker's stride places him a foot ahead of the defender but because they're not in sync in the next split second it's the defender whose stride is now ahead...and they still haven't reached the ball. There are just too many variables involved whether someone has actually gained an advantage from the offside position.

If we are to have an offside law then either it should be exactly as they are now doing it, or it should be the foot only, regardless of body angle or position. Unless, of course, they can develop some kind of implant in the players' bodies that sends a signal to the ref like GLT.

There was something about using thicker lines for the season just gone as if it was going to reduce the "silly" ones but I didn't see any evidence of that.
In my googling around on the general topic, I came across some discussion that they may change the rule to effectively require daylight between the attacker and defender, rather than level. I can't find the original article right now, but this one seems to be the same topic - Why Arsene Wenger's new plan for a 'daylight' offside rule to fix VAR wouldn’t work | FourFourTwo - even refers to your 'armpit' example! Don't know where this proposal stands today. Anything that makes goals easier seems like a good move to me! If defenses get caught out trying to play the offside trap, then stop playing that way ...

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Old Jun 24th 2022, 9:47 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
In my googling around on the general topic, I came across some discussion that they may change the rule to effectively require daylight between the attacker and defender, rather than level. I can't find the original article right now, but this one seems to be the same topic - Why Arsene Wenger's new plan for a 'daylight' offside rule to fix VAR wouldn’t work | FourFourTwo - even refers to your 'armpit' example! Don't know where this proposal stands today. Anything that makes goals easier seems like a good move to me! If defenses get caught out trying to play the offside trap, then stop playing that way ...
A form of "daylight" was used several years ago but it's still a subjective thing. Your arms are pumping and not in line with your body. Your upper body may be in advance of the defender upper matching your pace but a little behind you. If your arms and his arms were in line with your bodies, down by your sides, you might see day light between them. But they're not, they're pumping and your back arm is overlapping with with your opponent's chest, and his forward arm is overlapping your back cutting out the daylight.

Players thee days wear a bra like thing that contains monitors of some sort. Perhaps there could be something in that and get some air traffic control type equipment




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Old Jul 1st 2022, 2:48 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

See here
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Old Jul 1st 2022, 4:10 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

Not to worry Mike Dean is joining the VAR team.
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Old Jul 1st 2022, 4:38 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Not to worry Mike Dean is joining the VAR team.
Yeah, shame he retired from the pitch.

Whenever there was a televised game I wasn't especially interested in, knowing he was refereeing was enough to arouse my interest.
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Old Jul 2nd 2022, 4:43 am
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Default Re: VAR question

I walked into a restaurant tonight and saw a soccer game on the big TV there (which was quite a shock - usually it's a basketball, baseball, or (US) Football game that's on - or even golf!). It was Liverpool v Real Madrid, UEFA champions cup final. Not knowing any better, I thought it might be 'live' (or recent) but I later discovered it was the final from May 28 . Anyway, just as I sat down and started watching, I saw a beautiful bit of attacking football from Real Madrid, and a fantastic goal ... only to see the goal ruled offside, confirmed by the VAR after another 3-4 minutes. The VAR delay was pretty buzz-killing, that's for sure (this was about 2 minutes before half time). But the other thing was - they showed the play half a dozen times at least and for the life of me I could not understand why it was offside. Given my lack of interest in football these past 40+ years I don't claim to be an expert, but whatever the intent of the offside rule was when it was first introduced (to stop the attacking side from 'hanging around the goal' I believe), this great bit of attacking didn't seem to fall afoul of it. What a shame; it's no wonder there are so many boring 0-0 games!
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Old Jul 2nd 2022, 2:08 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
I walked into a restaurant tonight and saw a soccer game on the big TV there (which was quite a shock - usually it's a basketball, baseball, or (US) Football game that's on - or even golf!). It was Liverpool v Real Madrid, UEFA champions cup final. Not knowing any better, I thought it might be 'live' (or recent) but I later discovered it was the final from May 28 . Anyway, just as I sat down and started watching, I saw a beautiful bit of attacking football from Real Madrid, and a fantastic goal ... only to see the goal ruled offside, confirmed by the VAR after another 3-4 minutes. The VAR delay was pretty buzz-killing, that's for sure (this was about 2 minutes before half time). But the other thing was - they showed the play half a dozen times at least and for the life of me I could not understand why it was offside. Given my lack of interest in football these past 40+ years I don't claim to be an expert, but whatever the intent of the offside rule was when it was first introduced (to stop the attacking side from 'hanging around the goal' I believe), this great bit of attacking didn't seem to fall afoul of it. What a shame; it's no wonder there are so many boring 0-0 games!
Presumably this was the 'goal' scored by Benzema.

There were two parts to it. Benzema's position was offside in so far as when the ball was played he only had one player between him and the goal line. The Liverpool keeper had actually advanced leaving just the one outfield player between Benzema and the goal line.

We get so used to the two "required" players being the goalkeeper and one outfield player that sometimes we're only looking at one outfield player to assess it. But as shown in this case, sometimes the keeper has advanced.

So with the keeper not being a factor for this one, two outfield Liverpool players were needed between Benzema and the goal and there was only one. The next one was a yard inn front of the 6 yard line while Benzema was on one knee, with his foot very clearly on the 6 yard line.

This picture shows it perfectly.



The rearmost part of the Liverpool defender who looks fairly level from the distorted angle is a yard in front of the 6 yard line - as shown by the dotted line - and Benzema's foot is obviously on the 6 yard line. You could argue he's not goal hanging but what if the ball hits that foot and goes in? So to keep it simple it's just the material fact as to whether he's in a position to have gained an advantage.

The reason it took so long to decide was about who played the ball.

Sometimes this bit is the grey area. If a pass is made to an offside player and an opponent deflects it, then the pass still counts as the important factor. If the defender passes the ball backwards and it's intercepted by a player in an offside position, he's not offside. The defender played the ball.

The difficulty arises when considering whether the defending player did it deliberately.

So if a pass hits a defender on the backside that touch is not relevant for an offside decision. If a defender tries to intercept but merely helps the ball on or miskicks then that was a deliberate action and he is the one to have played the ball, so it's not offside.

For this particular incident many think the Liverpool defender - can't remember who it was now - made a tackle for a loose ball and thus played the ball, so should have been allowed.

VAR appeared to decide that the Madrid player played the ball and it "came off" the Liverpool player so was not a deliberate action.
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Old Jul 3rd 2022, 4:47 am
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Default Re: VAR question

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Presumably this was the 'goal' scored by Benzema.

There were two parts to it. Benzema's position was offside in so far as when the ball was played he only had one player between him and the goal line. The Liverpool keeper had actually advanced leaving just the one outfield player between Benzema and the goal line.

We get so used to the two "required" players being the goalkeeper and one outfield player that sometimes we're only looking at one outfield player to assess it. But as shown in this case, sometimes the keeper has advanced.

So with the keeper not being a factor for this one, two outfield Liverpool players were needed between Benzema and the goal and there was only one. The next one was a yard inn front of the 6 yard line while Benzema was on one knee, with his foot very clearly on the 6 yard line.

This picture shows it perfectly.



The rearmost part of the Liverpool defender who looks fairly level from the distorted angle is a yard in front of the 6 yard line - as shown by the dotted line - and Benzema's foot is obviously on the 6 yard line. You could argue he's not goal hanging but what if the ball hits that foot and goes in? So to keep it simple it's just the material fact as to whether he's in a position to have gained an advantage.

The reason it took so long to decide was about who played the ball.

Sometimes this bit is the grey area. If a pass is made to an offside player and an opponent deflects it, then the pass still counts as the important factor. If the defender passes the ball backwards and it's intercepted by a player in an offside position, he's not offside. The defender played the ball.

The difficulty arises when considering whether the defending player did it deliberately.

So if a pass hits a defender on the backside that touch is not relevant for an offside decision. If a defender tries to intercept but merely helps the ball on or miskicks then that was a deliberate action and he is the one to have played the ball, so it's not offside.

For this particular incident many think the Liverpool defender - can't remember who it was now - made a tackle for a loose ball and thus played the ball, so should have been allowed.

VAR appeared to decide that the Madrid player played the ball and it "came off" the Liverpool player so was not a deliberate action.
Thanks for the detailed explanation; I certainly defer to your superior knowledge. I do recall now, the big discussion among the commentators was all about the Liverpool defender and whether he 'played' the ball or not, which is what you mentioned.

But what a shame - the play, overall, was really good and philosophically, it 'deserved' to be counted; it just confirms to me that the current rule is counter to the enjoyment of the game. Oh well, I'll try watching another game sometime and see if I can get excited again! I watched the Chelsea - Liverpool FA cup final recently and getting a 0-0 draw after 120 minutes was just too much to bear!
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Old Jul 3rd 2022, 2:14 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
But what a shame - the play, overall, was really good and philosophically, it 'deserved' to be counted; it just confirms to me that the current rule is counter to the enjoyment of the game. Oh well, I'll try watching another game sometime and see if I can get excited again! I watched the Chelsea - Liverpool FA cup final recently and getting a 0-0 draw after 120 minutes was just too much to bear!
I have an online friend in Seattle who thinks very much as you do.

It's just one of those things. Aside from the goal hanging idea I remember when offside was all about "seeking to gain an advantage" and no way does that describe Benzema's position regardless of who played the ball. Nor does it describe that annoying situation where on a free kick the defenders come rushing out, making the attackers offside - as personified by Arsenal (Tony Adams era) and shown to good effect in The Full Monty

Ironically, where it does give an advantage to a player deliberately positioning himself offside, it's apparently perfectly okay when, perhaps, it shouldn't be.
  • Lionel Messi (among others but I've noticed he does it an awful lot) wanders around in an offside position with opponents taking little note of where he is because he's clearly offside. A pass goes forward for a team mate who is onside and thus we have a new "phase of play' and Messi is now in a position to receive the ball legitimately but - in my view - only because of his original offside position. *
  • At an attacking free kick it's now common for one or two players to position themselves offside and when the ball comes over, whereas once upon a time the flag would go up immediately, we now get someone coming from an onside position to attack the ball with confusion all around. * At least with VAR what was previously impossible to spot is now more clear, but there is still the potential for offside attackers impeding the ability of defenders to defend and while it's in the offside rules to penalise the offside attacker for interfering it's extremely rare and I can only think of one situation where it's happened. Harry Maguire.

** Arguably these examples are players being clever, but just as many people are not happy about defenders taking advantage of a rule being introduced for one purpose applying to situations it wasn't really intended for, I'm not totally comfortable with attackers taking advantage of a rule by doing the very thing it was supposed to stop.

It's just not logical. But I'm probably in a minority and, more importantly, it's a recipe for disaster because even if everyone agreed in principle there would still be disagreement as to whether Messi did intend to gain or did it just happen; whether that player actually did impede a player's movement; whether the defender deliberately moved to make the attacker offside or did he anticipate something else and so on.

So really all we can do is to work on a material fact and VAR helps that but it does mean we get to decisions based on an armpit or toenail.

Fortunately this might help considerably.
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Old Jul 5th 2022, 9:09 pm
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Default Re: VAR question

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
...Oh well, I'll try watching another game sometime and see if I can get excited again! I watched the Chelsea - Liverpool FA cup final recently and getting a 0-0 draw after 120 minutes was just too much to bear!
The thing with big games like cup finals is they are often a bit of an anti climax.

You could try regular premier league matches. I know most will be subscription based in the US but NBC traditionally has the UK 5.30pm Saturday match on its main channel.
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