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Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Old Jan 8th 2011, 8:18 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
While I am aware that the fact that Heyzel and Hillsborough were the two most traumatic events in my life are a reflection of the charmed life I have lived thus far, I do not think they are events that I will ever get over.
Having stood on those very same Leppings Lane End terraces for a couple of FA Cup semi-finals myself I have plenty of sympathy for all concerned.... but Heysel is different.

The seems to have been a concerted effort by all concerned to switch the blame from Liverpool fans to the ground itself. It's almost as though the Liverpool fans think they played no part in the events of that day, that the wall just collapsed on its own... that Liverpool's fans were somehow 'victims' themselves.

You'll probably deny that, but its my opinion, and I think its the opinion of many from outside Liverpool... and it sticks in the craw.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 8:23 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by mport343 View Post
They didn't force their way in it was the dick ed coppers and ground staff that let them in that led to the crush, along with the roadworks on the m62 that delayed them gettin to the ground before kick off, which wasn't delayed to allow them to get in to watch! The taylor report stated that it was the police decsion to open the secondary gates that was the main cause of the crush and resulting deaths. As for heysel...well....fair enough... that was down to dick ed fans and a shit stadium that was fallin to bits!
no offense mate, I think the Taylor report was a bit of a whitewash

I knew what I saw on Grandstand that day, I know what I saw on the CCTV camera's before the game outside the ground.

I know what I saw. I saw a swath of Liverpool fans outside the ground trying to get in.
There were thousands trying to get in, many more than could be accomodated by the three lower pens of the lepping lane end.
many of them couldn't have had tickets....

Yes, Hillsborough was a crap ground, and shouldn't have been used for major semi finals.
SYP has to also take some blame for not knowing what was going on inside the ground and the crush.

But Liverpool fans turning up en masse not having tickets must take the blame too.


I don't really know what they want justice for.
It was just a tragedy.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 8:31 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by mport343 View Post
They didn't force their way in it was the dick ed coppers and ground staff that let them in that led to the crush, along with the roadworks on the m62 that delayed them gettin to the ground before kick off, which wasn't delayed to allow them to get in to watch! The taylor report stated that it was the police decsion to open the secondary gates that was the main cause of the crush and resulting deaths. As for heysel...well....fair enough... that was down to dick ed fans and a shit stadium that was fallin to bits!
Thats true, also the Nottingham Forrest fans were given the Spion Kop end of 21,000 capacity but there were considerably less fans compared to Liverpool who were given the Leppings lane end which only held 14,000 people, A bottleneck was recreated which build up the section of fans.


ALL sporting disasters are tragic and those who are affected come to terms with it but its hard getting over it.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 8:36 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by Maria_747 View Post

ALL sporting disasters are tragic and those who are affected come to terms with it but its hard getting over it.

As I said, Rangers and Bradford fans seem to have no problems with getting on with life............

no-one has still answered the question, what do you want justice for?

and the cause of death was misadventure........... that's not a criminal act, so there is no justice to be had.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 8:37 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by mport343 View Post
They didn't force their way in it was the dick ed coppers and ground staff that let them in that led to the crush, along with the roadworks on the m62 that delayed them gettin to the ground before kick off, which wasn't delayed to allow them to get in to watch! The taylor report stated that it was the police decsion to open the secondary gates that was the main cause of the crush and resulting deaths. As for heysel...well....fair enough... that was down to dick ed fans and a shit stadium that was fallin to bits!
I went to Shefield without a ticket, its predictable, its what fans do and is part of variables factored in to planing. I got mine in a pub.

I dont blame the police for their actions on the day. It was the lies and cover up afterwards that was wrong. I remember screaming to a policeman at the gates that they had to do something, as the crowd at that time was like no other I had experienced. He just looked at me like a rabbit in the headlights, as I got pushed along.

After the gates I went down the only tunnel I saw, the crowd in the tunnel was ridiculous I went out to look for another way in; I looked and failed to find an alternate tunnel. Back down the central tunnel I went. Evntually got through, it was too crowded (This is all before the surge) in the central pen. I climbed over the fence in to the a pen to the right facing the pitch, it had loads of room. Minutes after my arrival in a pen with ample space, the crush was happening. There was loads of space in the Leppings Lane end, just none in the central pen; where everyone went because it appeared to be the only way in. I know what the crush was like before the surge and I am not critical of the police for opening the gate, something should have been done about the rush outside earlier.

You can not blame an individual in a crowd. Thats why there is planing.

I helped carry a body on an advert to the other end of the pitch, the police told us to just put it down; I remember screaming at him, this person was dead, something should be done right then. He was right, the dead can not be helped, it was the living that needed assistance. I was wrong in that instance and the policeman was right. I think about that as a metaphor that be and large the polce did a reasonalbe job. Too many people at the wrong time and lack of sinage were to blame.

It annoys me to this day that the police lied after the fact about openning the gate and blaming the victims. They should have stood by the decision, as I have said I do not blame them for doing that. If signage was better inside the ground then that crwod wwould have been distributed between the three pens and not the one.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 8:40 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
I went to Shefield without a ticket, its predictable, its what fans do and is part of variables factored in to planing. I got mine in a pub.

I dont blame the police for their actions on the day. It was the lies and cover up afterwards that was wrong. I remember screaming to a policeman at the gates that they had to do something, as the crowd at that time was like no other I had experienced. He just looked at me like a rabbit in the headlights, as I got pushed along.

After the gates I went down the only tunnel I saw, the crowd in the tunnel was ridiculous I went out to look for another way in; I looked and failed to find an alternate tunnel. Back down the central tunnel I went. Evntually got through, it was too crowded (This is all before the surge) in the central pen. I climbed over the fence in to the a pen to the right facing the pitch, it had loads of room. Minutes after my arrival in a pen with ample space, the crush was happening. There was loads of space in the Leppings Lane end, just none in the central pen; where everyone went because it appeared to be the only way in. I know what the crush was like before the surge and I am not critical of the police for opening the gate, something should have been done about the rush outside earlier.

You can not blame an individual in a crowd. Thats why there is planing.

I helped carry a body on an advert to the other end of the pitch, the police told us to just put it down; I remember screaming at him, this person was dead, something should be done right then. He was right, the dead can not be helped, it was the living that needed assistance. I was wrong in that instance and the policeman was right. I think about that as a metaphor that be and large the polce did a reasonalbe job. Too many people at the wrong time and lack of sinage were to blame.

It annoys me to this day that the police lied after the fact about openning the gate and blaming the victims. They should have stood by the decision, as I have said I do not blame them for doing that. If signage was better inside the ground then that crwod wwould have been distributed between the three pens and not the one.

I will ask you this question.

If Hysel had not have happened, do you think the police inside the ground would have been aware that something very different to crowd trouble was going on?
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 8:52 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by Manc View Post
I will ask you this question.

If Hysel had not have happened, do you think the police inside the ground would have been aware that something very different to crowd trouble was going on?
Having stood on terraces that were packed to capacity and people obviously suffering because of it, I would have to say no. The police in the 70's and 80's had a mind set towards football fans, one that was well justified, one of 'these guys are trouble'.
They treated us accordingly.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 9:04 pm
  #83  
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by iamthecreaturefromuranus View Post
The police in the 70's and 80's had a mind set towards football fans, one that was well justified, one of 'these guys are trouble'.
They treated us accordingly.
so if it weren't for hooligans in those days, the police would have known sooner the shit was hitting the fan.

In those days, IMO the police stood around and let fans batter each other then arrested the limping idiots after the events......
I think they were letting the same happen in Sheffield........... just let the chips fall where they may after the dust settled.
They didn't know what was really going on. That's their fault, asleep at the wheel.

But the fact that any trouble at football grounds were presumed to be hooligan related are down to us fans.....

So if hysel, and riots like it hadn't have happened surely then the police might have acted sooner knowing what was going on?
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 9:05 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by iamthecreaturefromuranus View Post
but Heysel is different.

The seems to have been a concerted effort by all concerned to switch the blame from Liverpool fans to the ground itself. It's almost as though the Liverpool fans think they played no part in the events of that day, that the wall just collapsed on its own... that Liverpool's fans were somehow 'victims' themselves.

You'll probably deny that, but its my opinion, and I think its the opinion of many from outside Liverpool... and it sticks in the craw.
Heyzel is different, and the primary blame obviously goes with those that charged. I take this as a given.

We rely on those with authority to protect us, and when errors are made in this regard they should be tackled, not as responsible for the actions that happened, but for lack of duty of care.

I got my ticket on the queue for the ferry, should not have bothered. The wall all around the stadium was riddled with holes, the concrete of the stadium was rotten. To say that the wall just collapsed on its own, is not far from the truth.

If a murdering rapist gets early release and murders and rapes, the murdering rapist is to blame, but there are secondary causes that need to be addressed.

I take it for a given who was responsible for the deaths in Brussels. And I did feel like a victim of the actions of the scallie scum that night, I did feel like the hunted as I tried to make my way back to Britian, (no money and a bus ticket for the following day) if I had been beatten up that night I would not have blamed any Italian I would have blamed it on the scum portion of Liverpool.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 9:08 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by Manc View Post
So if hysel, and riots like it hadn't have happened surely then the police might have acted sooner knowing what was going on?
You're probably correct... but that's just pure conjecture. Football, and its fans, were like that. That's just how it was.

Would the police have reacted differently if there hadn't been 20 years of crowd trouble prior to the events of Hillsborough... well of course they would.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 9:14 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
I got my ticket on the queue for the ferry, should not have bothered. The wall all around the stadium was riddled with holes, the concrete of the stadium was rotten. To say that the wall just collapsed on its own, is not far from the truth.

If a murdering rapist gets early release and murders and rapes, the murdering rapist is to blame, but there are secondary causes that need to be addressed.
I've got to say mate that this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's a "yes we did it... but" type comment. There is always a 'but'.
I was still living in the North West at the time of Heysel and had to listen to the spin that everybody in Liverpool seemed to be pushing out to the press and TV on an almost daily basis.

It pissed many people off.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 9:36 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by Manc View Post
no offense mate, I think the Taylor report was a bit of a whitewash

I knew what I saw on Grandstand that day, I know what I saw on the CCTV camera's before the game outside the ground.

I know what I saw. I saw a swath of Liverpool fans outside the ground trying to get in.
There were thousands trying to get in, many more than could be accomodated by the three lower pens of the lepping lane end.
many of them couldn't have had tickets....

Yes, Hillsborough was a crap ground, and shouldn't have been used for major semi finals.
SYP has to also take some blame for not knowing what was going on inside the ground and the crush.

But Liverpool fans turning up en masse not having tickets must take the blame too.


I don't really know what they want justice for.
It was just a tragedy.
And as for the masses of ticketless fans you mention,thats not true mate, a minority of the crowd did turn up without 1 but they were still on sale at the anfield ticket office the day before the match and many were led to believe there were still tickets to be sold on the day at the ground, when they arrived and were refused entry because the tickets were sold out they couldn't get out of the way because of the thousands queing up behind them with tickets that were trying to get in! I'm not sure how you can come to te conclusion that the report was a whitewash either....unless taylor was on the liverpool board at the time that is!
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 9:39 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by mport343 View Post
And as for the masses of ticketless fans you mention,thats not true mate, a minority of the crowd did turn up without 1 but they were still on sale at the anfield ticket office the day before the match and many were led to believe there were still tickets to be sold on the day at the ground, when they arrived and were refused entry because the tickets were sold out they couldn't get out of the way because of the thousands queing up behind them with tickets that were trying to get in! I'm not sure how you can come to te conclusion that the report was a whitewash either....unless taylor was on the liverpool board at the time that is!
yeah there's always tickets for sale on the day of a FA Cup semi final
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 9:44 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

Originally Posted by mport343 View Post
I'm not sure how you can come to te conclusion that the report was a whitewash
Because it goes against his prejudices.
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Old Jan 8th 2011, 9:45 pm
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Default Re: Liverpool facing relegation dogfight?

the report also said that the number of fans would not have been greater than the capacity available, the crush was due to them all being directed into the cental pens by direction boards not stewards,who weren't there to direct them away from the already filled central pens, the coppers were also to blame for only allowing 1 out of the 44 ambulances that attended, into the ground to help the injured, alot of whom died as a result of the time it took to be seen by paramedics........thats where the Justice thing comes in!!
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