Thinking of Umbria
 

Hi everyone. This is my first post although I have looking around at you all in the background!

I'm looking into moving to Umbria to live full time following a divorce which has left me with a rather smaller pot of money than most. However I've dreamt of moving ever since I first visited Umbria many years ago (and every visit since at all times of year), so I'm determined to make it work somehow. I do have Italian friends elsewhere and I'm looking to integrate fully if I can (although I'm far from fluent at present but will work on that one!) but in an effort to make it work practically I'd love to hear your thoughts as to whether my ideas are hogwash or not (or should that be cinghiale wash?).

My idea is to have a flat rented out in the uk and use that as a base income and potential safety net if needed. I can afford to buy a small house up to £70k or so in Umbria and then just need to make up the difference in monthly income depending on what monthly amount is realistic for living expenses in rural Umbria. Ideas for costings would be great if you have any? Anyway, to make up some money, is it possible to do the odd meet and greet, sewing, design work (was a magazine designer), small odd jobs etc and get some money that way? Other than that I'm looking at funding the gap between now and my retirement in 12 years out of my pot as well, which is possible but not ideal. Any ideas anyone?

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

Well living in Italy is everything we ever wanted and knew from holidays and more than excelled in living there. Depending on how you live it can also be much cheaper, but for some that’s not the case. I would say costs for us were a minimum 25% less than living in the UK, but we do mostly live off the land. However you need to look at everything you assume or take for granted. It is very different from the UK, much more so than most expect once there.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

I would rent a place for a few months with all services thrown in and see how you get on. Where were you planning to live? Most expats live in Provincia di Perugia.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

Thanks Geordieborn and Philat98 for replying. It's given me some idea of costs if you say you can allow 25% less on living. I would grow some veggies if I can and live by markets etc so cost wise I am assuming that'd be cheaper, so I am working on needing approx £1000 a month to live on (or whatever that may end up being in euros at that point). I don't live a high life but it would be nice not to be worried about affording to go festivals or do other social things each month and run a car if needed.

The area I'm looking at is anywhere from Todi in the South up to Perugia and from Castiglione del Lago to Spello. I have seen a property at both Doglio and Collazzone that look interesting, as well as a 'project' just outside Todi which despite being 'completely habitable', basically needed building from the ground up! Ideally I'd like to be around the San T/Bettona/Bevagna area but obviously that depends on whats available.

Is it realistic to think that I might be able to supplement my income by doing some self employed work for other expats - holiday homes meet and greet/cleaning, admin, soft furnishings etc? I know that 'proper' work would be almost impossible due to the high unemployment rates and my not being fluent yet. I have met others who do odd jobs like this when I've been driving down to Umbria from the UK, but that's been France, Piedmont, and Tuscany, so not sure if the same applies in Umbria. There is also the possibility of freelance design work for the UK but that is not certain yet despite being ideal, hence my query as to possible earning.

Thanks again for your advice.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

For us it was a little bit more than growing the veg. Living rural and like our neighbours, it is not easy work and we could be viewed as slightly odd e.g. no TV (no time). This question has been raised many times before and often there is the same answer i.e. it depends how you live. Some people (we know) like to live in shorts in the winter indoors and spend 1000s on wood to heat their uninsulated massive house to 25c. Others (again we know) wear ski gear inside and ate Christmas lunch outside one year as it was warmer than in their house. Many an Italian will go to the local festa and spend nothing and others treat it as a family night out and dinner.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

Do you know that once you become a tax resident you have to pay Italian tax rates on worldwide assets and income? I don't think it is possible to live on such a small income.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

I would say you could, but not easily live on that income. The tax burden of 23% (up to circa 15000) in Italy is awful, but that may well change. I would not count on being able to earn anything.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

Also bear in mind that you would need health insurance in order to get residency, and then by virtue of not working (officially) you would not be able to access the state health service for 5 years, so you would have to cover all your needs (emergencies excepted) for that period. I think it will be tight on the budget you are indicating, but much depends on your philosophical approach and willingness to compromise in order to follow your dream.

Regarding the earnings you are thinking of, I personally would approach the matter as needing to be self-financing without them - and then anything you earn then would be a bonus. I think that depending on such sources would be asking for disappointment.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

The rules about what it is necessary for you to provide to get residency don't seem to be applied consistently throughout Italy. It depends which commune, or sometimes what person, you are dealing with. I am not sure that health insurance is always necessary in order to obtain temporary residency (you can't get permanent residency for five years unless you qualify by some other factor). What you are asked to provide is evidence that you will not be a burden on the state. In our case this was a self certification of income in excess of €6000 per year. We did not have to provide any evidence of this. Likewise if you were renting out a property in the UK as you suggested you would be able to truthfully confirm the same. However you'll have seen lots of different accounts from people about this if you have been reading the forum.

Finding advice about the tax situation on earnings in the UK seems to be a bit murky. And I think you have to consider that this may impact on your ability to register with the Italian state health service. We assumed that moving here we would pay tax on all income, but despite our best efforts to declare income earned abroad we keep being told that we have to pay tax on that income in the country where it is earnt. Getting state health cover was difficult for a while because they kept telling us that we needed a form from the uk, but that's only for people who are retired or in receipt of benefits. Eventually we declared ourselves as self employed (I guess you can do the same...it's true that you will be trying to work as a designer) and, though this created some additional paperwork, it meant that suddenly all obstacles to registering for healthcare disappeared. We're putting money aside assuming that

​​​​​​I' m pretty sure that I could live on £1000 a month here (Northern Lazio but it's much the same as southern umbria), but I wouldn't have a problem living frugally. Overall, excluding housing, I think the cost of living is similar to the UK. Some things are more expensive (medicines like paracetamol for example) and other things are cheaper (wine)...so the obvious solution is to drink more wine! 😀

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

Forgot to add the obligatory 'this is preBrexit' warning statement!! 😀

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

If we exit Europe at the end of October the EHIC card will no longer provide any health cover. If you have no Tessersa Sanitaria and no health insurance what would you do if you were feeling unwell one morning? Even UK doctors kick you off the practice after a few months of living outside the UK.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

As things stand a EHIC won't provide any cover if are resident in Italy (that's already the situation, nothing to do with brexit). In the context of this thread the OP was asking about living in Italy, and I was saying that if they are self employed they can apply for a Tessersa Sanitaria. And in that case they wouldn't have to have health insurance

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

Yes thats how I got my Tessera Sanitaria. You still have to pay the INPS contributions.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

Replying to C.2s's post (#9) it is fair comment that things can vary from one Comune to another. But much, much less than they used to, and another factor muddying the waters is that the rules change every so often - which means for example that what I experienced (no need for any proof of wealth/income, immediate entry into the health system etc) is not because of any local variations but because it was more than a decade ago when the rules were different.

The OP should expect to asked for 'proof' of wealth/earnings (which may well be nothing more that signing a declaration with no need for supporting documentation) and also to be denied entry to the health system for 5 years unless he/she is working (self-employment counts, but will almost certainly be accompanied by the need to pay INPS - i.e. 'Italian NI' - contributions - which if there are no earnings would likely be more expensive than private health insurance). Worth mentioning that a few regions do still (I believe) allow new residents to buy into the health system, but which regions it is I don't know. I am, however, pretty sure that Umbria is not one of them.

In all this, it is possible that the OP will find things different with their local authority - but very doubtful indeed.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

But as I totally expect to pay italian taxes, including INPS, it never occurred to me think that I could avoid paying taxes by purchasing private health insurance...

Is that actually a possibility?

Even if it were, I'd say that morally I think it is better to pay the taxes in the country in which you have chosen to live and contribute to the society you are living in...if you don't like the taxes then maybe don't choose to live here?

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

My comments were addressed to the situation of the OP, rather than to yours. I don't have any idea of your situation; you mention income from the UK, but not what it derives from. Not all foreign income attracts INPS (for example I suspect that 'earnings' from letting out property probably doesn't attract INPS, but someone in that situation can advise with certainty)

I know of no way in which you can avoid paying taxes (or even INPS contributions where relevant) by purchasing PHI, and I certainly didn't intend to imply that this was the case. If anything it's the other way round. If the OP (non-retired) isn't paying INPS contributions then he/she should expect to be asked to provide proof of PHI. All part and parcel of what you said in post #9 ("What you are asked to provide is evidence that you will not be a burden on the state").

Now in fact you are in any case covered for emergencies and (without PHI) not covered for non-emergencies so there is theoretically no burden on the state whatsoever. But I suspect the state's view is that without PHI you would just go to Pronto Soccorso and thus be a burden. I know that in theory if you present at A&E with a non-emergency you could (and arguably should) be charged. But in practice doctors don't like doing this (and therefore very rarely do it), thus in practice there is a burden on the state which is probably mitigated by PHI. Or am I attributing too much intelligence to the state. Probably :o

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

If someone has set their heart on the dream I don’t think anything we say here will put them off, certainly not minor detail. I’ve said before if you can afford to lose what you pay for the property and spend on it, with no regrets, then fine. When we were looking I read just about every historic post on many a forum that I could find. In one someone had said most (90%) of people moving abroad end up leaving within 7 years. We have found this to be the case with many, many people we have known over out short time in Italy (8 years).

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

There is plenty of information about house buying but not much about house selling. In my village the
Property market has been stagnant for the last 10 years. There are many more properties for sale than casa.it would have you believe. I think renting is not a bad solution. You can get quite a good appartment (100m 2 beds)for Euro450 per month in Umbria. Using Geordieborn's information total residency would cost under 40k. If you bought a house in my village for 70k you might lose 25k by paying an over inflated price and all the costs that go with the purchase.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

I agree that renting is a very good alternative, I had a quick look before I posted previously at casa.it for rentals and there were a number. If you were to look at the lower end you could rent a lot cheaper. I think the problem is that many see it as money lost that could buy you more. Rather than looking on it as something that gives say 4 years living your dream and if you don't like it you walk away. If you do like it you will be in a much better position to know exactly where you want to buy and likely much more savvy when buying.

Re: Thinking of Umbria
 

Thanks all for your thoughts and experiences. I think that rental might be the option. Although I would normally think of renting as being 'lost' money, as Geordieborn says it's more an investment on my future life and I think it's worth spending money trying (even if I lose it) than in years to come wishing I had tried! In order to live the way I'd ideally like I'd like to have somewhere with a decent garden or some land. I know that I said about a village house etc because of my smaller budget, but my original dream was to be in a small place with land and see what I could live on, whether that be in a village, in the country whatever. I will look at casa.it and see what's around.

I do appreciate all your replies, so thanks again.