Sancho

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...h-8326452.html

pugliese

The empire is gone and we no longer rule the waves.

shouldn't it be: the empire has gone......

Sancho

No, actually. The is version is certainly marked (i.e. not ordinary - one would "notice" it, as you did), but it's quite possible.

You come across is/are instead of has/have particularly in poetry. Such as

Cowper

The poplars are felled, farewell to the shade
Of the whispering sound of the cool colonnade
The winds play no longer and sing in the leaves
Nor Ouse on his bosom their image receives

or Edward Fitzgerald

Iram indeed is gone with all its rose
And Jamshyd's seven-ringed cup where no-one knows
But still the vine her ancient ruby yields
And still a garden in the desert blows

And David's lips are locked. But in divine
High-piping Pehlevi, with "Wine! Wine! Wine!
Red wine", the nightingale cries to the rose
That yellow cheek of hers to incarnadine

or Walter Scott

Oh young Lochinvar is come out of the west
In all the wide border his steed was the best

(I'm quoting these from memory, so there may be some mistakes, but I don't think I've got the is/are v-en bits wrong.)

Shakespeare too, I think - "The king is come" and so on.

The point isn't that it sounds archaic (which it does, to us anyway), but that it makes it clear that what's being talked about a present state - how things are now. "Macbeth is come" = Macbeth is here; "the poplars are felled" = they aren't here any more, etc. The has/have version wouldn't do that. They'd be talking about an accomplishment, say, or a change.

And the reason why poets use it more that common people is that poets are more sensitive than common people to fine shades of meaning.

P.S. You also get it in hymns - "Joy to the world; the Lord is come" etc. And I think in the Bible - "He was/they were gone up into Capernaum/Galilee/Tiberias", etc. They're closely linked to poetry, of course. Anyway, if it's good enough for the Lord, who are we mere mortals to object ?

P.P.S. I wonder if there's any overlap with the verbs the French normally conjugate their passé composé with être with.

P.P.P.S. Cf. the Easter greeting "Christus resurrectus est!" ("Christ is risen!")

MarkRD

.. in other words it's an archaic form, so completely in line with the British Empire issue!

milazzo06

Yes, I think that's spot on. And for the same reason, does that not imply there must be an overlap with Italian verbs which take essere? In other words, it's all to do with the "transivity" of the verb.

In the 19th century there was a movement among English pedants to bend the rules of English grammar to be more like those of Latin. (For example - that's where we got the rule not to split infinitives from - to use an example myself). And I've always wondered whether our poetic sounding "he is arrived" was not another example of this application of Latin grammar on the English language. Maybe.... but your explanation above actually sounds more plausible.

Interesting topic though.

Sancho

I see two ways in which transitivity may be indirectly linked. Formally, the be + v-en pattern in these looks like a passive (cf. is made) etc. Because these aren't passive, though, the verb needn't be transitive (which of course it has to be in a passive). And there's no suggestion here of an agent (as there would be with a passive, even if it wasn't expressed).

My Latin isn't good enough for me to be able to say anything worthwhile about the idea of an influence coming from that direction (apart from the resurrectus example I only know of Latin be + v-en in passives), but you may be right. The style here is certainly high and literary, and, I'm sure, meant to give a biblical, archaic, poetical flavour.

On split infinitives and anything else to do with pedantry, do you know Fowler ?

milazzo06

@Sancho
Very interesting - thanks for explaining that.

Only in passing. I knew of him but have never read him. I had to look him up.

Cheers anyway.

modicasa

is arrived and has arrived are 2 completely different things. I dont think it is archaic at all, one is active and one is passive. the poplars are felled, have been felled. is arrived (has been brought) has arrived (come on his own two feet) so the empire is gone - not by its own volition, but it is no more. The empire has gone - it decided to become a commonwealth on its own. ...

MarkRD

that's all new to me ... but I don't think anyone would ever say "Your parcel is arrived" ..

duffer

You can say 'I is well sexy' though.

This intellectual discussion is gone to pot now.

modicasa

yeah but a parcel aint got two feet - a king has, so it never had the option of coming on its own. The postman is arrived though is excellent English, as long as he came on a scooter and not by foot! Innit.

Pica

what is you lot like? I just loves this thread

Serrano

In which case how would you interpret "he's arrived"? Just asking, like.

modicasa

as in he's arrived? I should stop now, or Ill get my legs smacked.

MarkRD

Insooth I know not whether tis merely arrivèd or verily in the building.

..Sire..