modicasa

Since the genetically programmed comment got me into such trouble let me explain to those of you who took offence and dont seem to live in Italy - had I used inverted commas I would have quoted directly from some of Italy's thinkers, commentators and writers who have been writing the same thing for years, word for word, in papers, articles and so on. Obviously since they were born in ITaly is is just regarded as some navel gazing. Call me a plagiarist if you like, but not a racist.

sunnysider

Totally fair point modicasa. Congratulations for refusing to be victim-bullied.

I could quote a lot of Italians - from history and from personal conversations. I shouldn't need to of course but sometimes in Italy you have to quote an Italian as a footnote saying the same as you have said. It can double the length of conversations and perhaps give some folk the idea that you haven't an original idea in your head (because an Italian got there first) but if it helps the peace, so be it.

And I should maybe explain my earlier "suggestion" of some sort of exchange of populations. Of course I wasn't being 100 per cent literal - it's hard to see how it could ultimately be achieved except at the point of a gun and I rather think there would be international objections.

But like modicasa's comment, and those of countless Italians over the last 150 years, it was borne of desperation and failing to see how the problem of nationhood could be fixed. You need a critical mass of acceptance for these things to work and once a very significant number of people fail to buy into a collective concept it is extremely hard indeed to shift things.

When I have a bit more time I'll return to the topic - Italy and the Eurozone and Renzi/Draghi etc. I may even ask a question which the odd Brit/Italian or whatever might be good enough to answer. There's a very substantial number of reasonable fair-minded people on here.

In the meantime I'd urge folk to just ignore continued attempts to derail the topic with personal obsessions.

And to just ignore any personal insults - just let them pitch into the long grass.

all the best, trust Ferragosto went well.

Sancho

Some Italian reactions - Governo Renzi, Telegraph: "L'Italia torni alla lira per uscire dalla depressione"

Lorna at Vicenza

Well well well. You have been busy. I was only offline a day or two and I come back to 6 pages of, well 6 pages.

Capo Boi

It's Sancho's fault Miss. He started it.

Lorna at Vicenza

He's been told to see me in my office later!

ciquta

Journalist are good talking about scenarios can't be proved wrong.

Let me suggest you, if Italy one day will plan to exit from euro sell your properties in the boot and move back to your contry as quick as you can.

Thanks God, in Italy there's lot of people who think better thank they speak and I believe this won't happen at the end.

Sancho

Agreed about Renzi's government. At least, I can't see any achievements. But "the problem with Italy is Italy etc" looks a bit simplistic. I'd have thought there was more to it than the casta. As for "the costs of exit would definitely be higher", what would the costs be ? (What sort of costs, and how high ?)

I've heard it said that Italy's so big that an Italian exit would probably mean the break-up of the EZ itself. Do you agree ? And if it would, doesn't that put Italy, in a sense, in a very strong negotiating position ?



I believe the polls, but I'm not sure what weight to attach to them. Turkeys do sometimes vote for Christmas, for various reasons - that's what they're told to vote for, it's what they know, it embodies family values, etc...

And how certain is it that not signing up to the Euro would have resulted in the alternative disaster-scenario you describe ? (I don't mean that as a retort - just a straightforward question.)

sunnysider

Hi Sancho.

Thanks for the original post and for helping to keep this on track

I took it that when italondon said "the problem with Italy is Italy" he did mean that it was an issue beyond the much maligned (and just possibly rather convenient in my view) casta.

I agree with both of you that as far as I can see Renzi, despite saying lots of things which seem to have identified the problems, appears to have done sod all.

And Letta before him.

(I was due to see Letta give a lecture at the London School of Economics in February this year by the way. Then on Feb 14 the LSE announced, in priceless prose, that the event had been postponed/cancelled "due to unforeseen circumstances". I personally would have loved for him to have gone ahead with the promise (perhaps forlorn) that he might let rip and say what he really thought/felt.

sunnysider

I'm not defending the financial elite but I don't really understand why Italy in particular should be picked on in this way rather than the many other countries on the planet.

I was in Italy just after Monti came to power and remember telling someone that I was so glad that Britain wasn't in the Euro, for two reasons. 1: It seemed to have been a massive mistake (at the time it was introduced I really didn't understand it or how it could/would work) and 2: If Britain had been in I could see that it and Brits would have been subjected to abuse from some (I stress some, and thankfully only some) quarters. And then maybe on New Year's Eve 2011 I would have been subjected to the pathetic sight of Carlo Conti making jokes (I seem to remember it was about 11:45) about the Queen's arse as well as Merkel's

I am afraid that I don't really buy the conspiracy theory about the awful Euro mess. And I don't buy the sometimes painting black of Germany either. Yes they are clearly the masters of Europe but I don't see them as having played some dark game vis-a-vis Italy or anyone else. Germany deserves all of its success.

Italy's pickle is of its own making over many years. Its national debt was massively high well over 20 years ago. With baby pensions still being given out. And massive issues with tax collection etc etc etc all the other issues. So no great surprise.

>>If Italy attempted to default, you would see the Nato and Allied forces invading Italy, BBC, CNN and FOX news talking of restoring freedom, rogue state, etc.

Can't really see the invasion scenario to be honest. Nor do I recognise the portrayal of the BBC, which has faced down some serious attacks from those in power in its time. It's not the tool of the financial elite. Within living memory quite a few slagged it off for being some sort of commie hive.

And as for the BBC somehow being anti-Italy I'm afraid that doesn't stack up. Italy is virtually invisible in the BBC news (and much British media) so much of the "bad news" about Italy that could have been covered over the last few difficult years just hasn't been. Before the internet, you pretty much had to read the FT for any coverage of the country.

Instead the BBC viewer is drip-fed nice programmes about the glories of the Renaissance, marvellous food and wine, scenery etc etc etc etc. Some of the progs are quite laughable in the way they pander to Bella Italia, though this may be improving a tad.

I am afraid that I can't help but see these two statements as the old "Italy the victim" narrative.

The question now is how to exit from this situation.

So to a question - aimed at those of you in Italy of whatever nationality.

Does anyone have any othere info/media info on the apparent reference in the Fatto Quiotidiano piece I linked to above about Renzi apparently agreeing to an invitation to cede sovereignty on aspects of structural reform and then withdrawing it?

It might shed some light on some of Renzi's recent animated statements about his position vis a vis reform.

ciquta

Seriously,
how can someone believe Italy would have done better keeping the Lira?
We had Berlusconi at the power for 9 years and the big central bank scandals in 2005, by this time we would have done a default for real, still having to pay commodities in $.
The big public debt it's a old story, much older than the Euro.

The only way to get over this is to make good long-term politics, there's no quick magic trick.
I deeply believe that also Grillo knows it very well, they are just trying to regain some votes riding the wave.

Sancho

In today's Sole 24 Ore - Ma quale Paese vuole Renzi? - Il Sole 24 ORE

sunnysider

Thanks for that Sancho:

Russia-Ukraine, Israel-Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Libya

So we can expect movement from Renzi once the Israel Palestine issue is solved?

And the whole world lives in harmony.

Let's teach the world to sing.

Capo Boi

'by this time we would have done a default for real'still having to pay commodities in $.'

I think this is almost certainly true. Foreign debt would be liable in hard currencies also.

What would have happened after this is anyone's guess but something similar to Argentina' s situation over the past 15 years may give some insight.

Sancho

I wonder if this is significant - Italy Loses Goldman’s Favor as Slump Amplifies Debt - Bloomberg