Italy and the Eurozone
Aug 14th 2014, 6:43 pm
#31
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 395
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
In there they could vent their fury at anyone daring to criticize their beloved country, while they live and work abroad , as Italy could not give them any meaningful employment.
Aug 14th 2014, 6:45 pm
#32
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 73
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Try to make serious considerations about serious issues without resorting to slurs and insults and you will find that no one will take over your precious thread.
Oh, and if you want to clear off your "very strong suspicion" about two or more posters being the same person, contact the Admin or the Moderator. I'm afraid he/she will disappoint you.
Oh, and if you want to clear off your "very strong suspicion" about two or more posters being the same person, contact the Admin or the Moderator. I'm afraid he/she will disappoint you.
Aug 14th 2014, 7:01 pm
#33
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 73
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Maybe it is time for some in the forum to open a new site : Italianspissedaboutbritishexpatscomplaingaboutital ygodforbids.com
In there they could vent their fury at anyone daring to criticize their beloved country, while they live and work abroad , as Italy could not give them any meaningful employment.
In there they could vent their fury at anyone daring to criticize their beloved country, while they live and work abroad , as Italy could not give them any meaningful employment.
Aug 14th 2014, 8:12 pm
#34
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2014
Location: singapore
Posts: 102
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Don't worry Modicasa.
It's clear to anyone who knows about Italy/has followed it for any time that there is a very long history of many ITALIANS talking about the possibility that Italy and Italians are ungovernable/have issues with nationhood.
Italians can be found going back to the early 20th century at least saying such things.
Some of them were nominally in charge of the country.
I have returned to this thread (which was previously a serious consideration of serious issues which italondon - an Italian I believe - didn't take umbrage at) to find that it has been taken over again by the usual irrelevant stuff about the Iraq war, British folk who might not be totally white doing problematical things, the Dolmio advert again, etc etc etc.
There is a very strong suspicion to say the least that at least two of these posters are one and the same person/troll.
I would urge folks to stick to the subject and just let these folks blast away in their own little world/thread within a thread.
If this goes on the forum will become unusable.
Finally, I think it pretty clear that the vast vast majority of British expats/prospective expats on here have a history of a love affair with Italy and do not write certain things lightly.
Maybe it has taken them longer to arrive at, at times, a somewhat desperate state for they do not have the head start that Italians have by actually being born in the place.
best regards to modicasa (even a brief perusal of his/her history would find it is a history of positive efforts to help folk through the Italian maze with no hidden agenda) and to italondon.
It's clear to anyone who knows about Italy/has followed it for any time that there is a very long history of many ITALIANS talking about the possibility that Italy and Italians are ungovernable/have issues with nationhood.
Italians can be found going back to the early 20th century at least saying such things.
Some of them were nominally in charge of the country.
I have returned to this thread (which was previously a serious consideration of serious issues which italondon - an Italian I believe - didn't take umbrage at) to find that it has been taken over again by the usual irrelevant stuff about the Iraq war, British folk who might not be totally white doing problematical things, the Dolmio advert again, etc etc etc.
There is a very strong suspicion to say the least that at least two of these posters are one and the same person/troll.
I would urge folks to stick to the subject and just let these folks blast away in their own little world/thread within a thread.
If this goes on the forum will become unusable.
Finally, I think it pretty clear that the vast vast majority of British expats/prospective expats on here have a history of a love affair with Italy and do not write certain things lightly.
Maybe it has taken them longer to arrive at, at times, a somewhat desperate state for they do not have the head start that Italians have by actually being born in the place.
best regards to modicasa (even a brief perusal of his/her history would find it is a history of positive efforts to help folk through the Italian maze with no hidden agenda) and to italondon.
Aug 14th 2014, 9:08 pm
#35
BE Co-Founder
Joined: Feb 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,928
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Let's not get hot under the collar folks.
BE was founded so that those living abroad could connect, share, help and have a moan. We all need to do that from time to time. It's hard adapting to life in a new country, and just because we let off a bit of steam, or have a vent about something in our new country, it doesn't mean we don't like the country or the citizens we live amongst, but rather that we may be finding something frustrating etc.
So lets not jump down each other's throats but rather, support each other. We all have good days, bad days, happy days, sad days and days when we haven't got a clue what is going on or why
..... and that's why BE is here 
Also, if anyone has a concern about a member have multiple identities then please do not hesitate to PM me. My door is always open.
BE was founded so that those living abroad could connect, share, help and have a moan. We all need to do that from time to time. It's hard adapting to life in a new country, and just because we let off a bit of steam, or have a vent about something in our new country, it doesn't mean we don't like the country or the citizens we live amongst, but rather that we may be finding something frustrating etc.
So lets not jump down each other's throats but rather, support each other. We all have good days, bad days, happy days, sad days and days when we haven't got a clue what is going on or why
..... and that's why BE is here Also, if anyone has a concern about a member have multiple identities then please do not hesitate to PM me. My door is always open.
Aug 15th 2014, 6:07 am
#36
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,513
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Gioppino - I was being flippant, but as Sunnysider says there is a basis in fact. Italy and the Italians (if you accept the united country thing) have been deluding themselves for 150 years that they live in a democracy. Before that, has there been a single ruler/ruling class of various parts of Italy that succeeded where others failed? Before Fleetwood goes off on one ofhis cretinous replies - I would say that you cannot understnad what is happening today or tomorrow without understanding what happened before. Italian history proves time and time again (for a myriad of reasons) that as a country it's not great at living peacefully and contentedly with itself. Looking at the ruling class at the moment, and the complete stasis in which it has placed Italy over the last 60 years, bound only by self interest - it needs a monumental shift to break the pattern - and its not one that Grillo or Casaleggio can provide, because the Italians fundamentally dont care enough, or dont feel sufficiently empowered to change the system, or it would have been done 30, 40 or 50 years ago. now we are at the point where Italy will become another investment for the IMF/ECB and their interests, and the Italians will lose out again. So whats the answer? Flippantly you can say - get rid of the Italians and put other people in who have a different mindset, or you can make it jail term, severely severely criminal for people to be corrupt, have a conflict of interest, evade taxes, and so on and make people scared shitless to try. Stop pattegiamenti and make fiscal evasion a criminal act and not a civil one. Because until that happens, the ruling class of ITaly will be there merely to line their own pockets or those of their mates.
As regards genetic disposition - its not my view - its the view of many Italians (admittedly from the south) I know who constantly tell me that they are genetically not disposed to buckle down to accepting ordrrs from a central goverment. Look at the history of the last 2500 years, and the genetic influences on the italian people and some scientist somewhere would be able to back up their claim. As to being racist - its now a term thrown about with aplomb without knowing what it means. You could argue quite coherently that the ITalians are not a race - the race is southern Mediterranean - which no doubt will get me into trouble with Spaniards, GReeks and Libyans - sticking labels on everyone and everything does more harm than good.
As regards genetic disposition - its not my view - its the view of many Italians (admittedly from the south) I know who constantly tell me that they are genetically not disposed to buckle down to accepting ordrrs from a central goverment. Look at the history of the last 2500 years, and the genetic influences on the italian people and some scientist somewhere would be able to back up their claim. As to being racist - its now a term thrown about with aplomb without knowing what it means. You could argue quite coherently that the ITalians are not a race - the race is southern Mediterranean - which no doubt will get me into trouble with Spaniards, GReeks and Libyans - sticking labels on everyone and everything does more harm than good.
Last edited by modicasa; Aug 15th 2014 at 6:33 am.
Aug 15th 2014, 6:15 am
#37
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Location: London
Posts: 687
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Back to the matter in hand
Riforme, Renzi: "Italia non è osservato speciale". Lungo incontro con Napolitano - Il Fatto Quotidiano
In amongst all Renzi's flying around, it does rather seem from this report as if his position is wobbling somewhat.
Looking forward to more posts on the subject, relevant views, press clips.
Maybe things will start to move soon - end of August approaches.
<edit - cross/posted before I saw modicasa's post which I hadn't read>
<pps just read - great post modicasa - back on track>
Riforme, Renzi: "Italia non è osservato speciale". Lungo incontro con Napolitano - Il Fatto Quotidiano
In amongst all Renzi's flying around, it does rather seem from this report as if his position is wobbling somewhat.
Looking forward to more posts on the subject, relevant views, press clips.
Maybe things will start to move soon - end of August approaches.
<edit - cross/posted before I saw modicasa's post which I hadn't read>
<pps just read - great post modicasa - back on track>
Last edited by sunnysider; Aug 15th 2014 at 6:19 am.
Aug 15th 2014, 6:48 am
#38
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: Disneylandia
Posts: 1,824
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Wherever you are, whatever your views, today is Ferragosto in Italy, so relax, forget the s**t, and have an enjoyable day.bye bye dicette l'inglese
Aug 15th 2014, 7:21 am
#39
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2014
Location: singapore
Posts: 102
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Gioppino - I was being flippant, but as Sunnysider says there is a basis in fact. Italy and the Italians (if you accept the united country thing) have been deluding themselves for 150 years that they live in a democracy. Before that, has there been a single ruler/ruling class of various parts of Italy that succeeded where others failed? Before Fleetwood goes off on one ofhis cretinous replies - I would say that you cannot understnad what is happening today or tomorrow without understanding what happened before. Italian history proves time and time again (for a myriad of reasons) that as a country it's not great at living peacefully and contentedly with itself. Looking at the ruling class at the moment, and the complete stasis in which it has placed Italy over the last 60 years, bound only by self interest - it needs a monumental shift to break the pattern - and its not one that Grillo or Casaleggio can provide, because the Italians fundamentally dont care enough, or dont feel sufficiently empowered to change the system, or it would have been done 30, 40 or 50 years ago. now we are at the point where Italy will become another investment for the IMF/ECB and their interests, and the Italians will lose out again. So whats the answer? Flippantly you can say - get rid of the Italians and put other people in who have a different mindset, or you can make it jail term, severely severely criminal for people to be corrupt, have a conflict of interest, evade taxes, and so on and make people scared shitless to try. Stop pattegiamenti and make fiscal evasion a criminal act and not a civil one. Because until that happens, the ruling class of ITaly will be there merely to line their own pockets or those of their mates.
As regards genetic disposition - its not my view - its the view of many Italians (admittedly from the south) I know who constantly tell me that they are genetically not disposed to buckle down to accepting ordrrs from a central goverment. Look at the history of the last 2500 years, and the genetic influences on the italian people and some scientist somewhere would be able to back up their claim. As to being racist - its now a term thrown about with aplomb without knowing what it means. You could argue quite coherently that the ITalians are not a race - the race is southern Mediterranean - which no doubt will get me into trouble with Spaniards, GReeks and Libyans - sticking labels on everyone and everything does more harm than good.
As regards genetic disposition - its not my view - its the view of many Italians (admittedly from the south) I know who constantly tell me that they are genetically not disposed to buckle down to accepting ordrrs from a central goverment. Look at the history of the last 2500 years, and the genetic influences on the italian people and some scientist somewhere would be able to back up their claim. As to being racist - its now a term thrown about with aplomb without knowing what it means. You could argue quite coherently that the ITalians are not a race - the race is southern Mediterranean - which no doubt will get me into trouble with Spaniards, GReeks and Libyans - sticking labels on everyone and everything does more harm than good.
Do you really think that Italy's ruling classesare much worse than other ruling classess across the world?
I thank god that with all its probems, Italy does not so far have such a class divided society like the one you come from...
Last edited by fleetwoodmac1975; Aug 15th 2014 at 8:07 am.
Aug 15th 2014, 7:31 am
#40
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Parma
Posts: 1,489
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Aug 15th 2014, 8:22 am
#42
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Parma
Posts: 1,489
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
[QUOTE=
It has happened before: Iceland defaulted in 2009 and two years later the economy was flourishing again.
QUOTE]
I had to look at some ISK stuff this morning which reminded me that it was the banks that defaulted not the state , the state took the decison to let them default rather than bail them out and also imposed very strict currency controls relaxed only recently . At the moment none of Italy's banks look like defaulting.
It has happened before: Iceland defaulted in 2009 and two years later the economy was flourishing again.
QUOTE]
I had to look at some ISK stuff this morning which reminded me that it was the banks that defaulted not the state , the state took the decison to let them default rather than bail them out and also imposed very strict currency controls relaxed only recently . At the moment none of Italy's banks look like defaulting.
Aug 15th 2014, 9:19 am
#43
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2014
Location: Rapagnano, Marche
Posts: 168
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
One of the worries about moving from Greece (where there were exactly the same discussions about default and withdrawing from the Eurozone three years ago), was that we might not find the badly researched, ill thought out, nonsensical arguments that we have spent so much time enjoying discussing in the local bars frequented by ex-pats here. Thanks, Fleetwood, for making me realise it's all still there for us and adding bad spelling and punctuation for further amusement.
Aug 15th 2014, 10:23 am
#44
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 17
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Gioppino - I was being flippant, but as Sunnysider says there is a basis in fact. Italy and the Italians (if you accept the united country thing) have been deluding themselves for 150 years that they live in a democracy. Before that, has there been a single ruler/ruling class of various parts of Italy that succeeded where others failed? Before Fleetwood goes off on one ofhis cretinous replies - I would say that you cannot understnad what is happening today or tomorrow without understanding what happened before. Italian history proves time and time again (for a myriad of reasons) that as a country it's not great at living peacefully and contentedly with itself. Looking at the ruling class at the moment, and the complete stasis in which it has placed Italy over the last 60 years, bound only by self interest - it needs a monumental shift to break the pattern - and its not one that Grillo or Casaleggio can provide, because the Italians fundamentally dont care enough, or dont feel sufficiently empowered to change the system, or it would have been done 30, 40 or 50 years ago. now we are at the point where Italy will become another investment for the IMF/ECB and their interests, and the Italians will lose out again. So whats the answer? Flippantly you can say - get rid of the Italians and put other people in who have a different mindset, or you can make it jail term, severely severely criminal for people to be corrupt, have a conflict of interest, evade taxes, and so on and make people scared shitless to try. Stop pattegiamenti and make fiscal evasion a criminal act and not a civil one. Because until that happens, the ruling class of ITaly will be there merely to line their own pockets or those of their mates.
As regards genetic disposition - its not my view - its the view of many Italians (admittedly from the south) I know who constantly tell me that they are genetically not disposed to buckle down to accepting ordrrs from a central goverment. Look at the history of the last 2500 years, and the genetic influences on the italian people and some scientist somewhere would be able to back up their claim. As to being racist - its now a term thrown about with aplomb without knowing what it means. You could argue quite coherently that the Italians are not a race - the race is southern Mediterranean - which no doubt will get me into trouble with Spaniards, Greeks and Libyans - sticking labels on everyone and everything does more harm than good.
As regards genetic disposition - its not my view - its the view of many Italians (admittedly from the south) I know who constantly tell me that they are genetically not disposed to buckle down to accepting ordrrs from a central goverment. Look at the history of the last 2500 years, and the genetic influences on the italian people and some scientist somewhere would be able to back up their claim. As to being racist - its now a term thrown about with aplomb without knowing what it means. You could argue quite coherently that the Italians are not a race - the race is southern Mediterranean - which no doubt will get me into trouble with Spaniards, Greeks and Libyans - sticking labels on everyone and everything does more harm than good.
One last point - UK, as every country as its pros and cons, but compared to Italy, it is a place where if you work hard you will see some results over the years, there is more meritocracy, and the 'casta' is much much smaller.
Enjoy your Ferragosto and don't eat too much (+ be careful with the wine)
Aug 15th 2014, 11:05 am
#45
BE Co-Founder
Joined: Feb 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,928
Re: Italy and the Eurozone
Ok folks, can we please stop the back biting and snippy remarks. I don't want to close this thread but I will if you can't be civil to each other.
Oh and just a reminder the language of use on BE is English.
Thanks.
Oh and just a reminder the language of use on BE is English.
Thanks.