markclapham

Hi all,

I'm really sorry for the basic questions, but I would really appreciate an idiot's guide to buying a property in Italy. I know these points will already have been covered elsewhere and I have dug around on the forums, but I'll be damned if I could find them!!!!!

We are looking to buy a renovation project and have found a couple of contenders in the area around Lucca. We know the area fairly well and are going out in a couple of weeks to view specific projects. This will be our third viewing trip. I have basic Italian - I spent a year in Modena as a student twenty odd years ago, but that taught me more about ordering pizza and beer than negotiating legal documents!

I'd be really grateful if someone could confirm my understanding of the process and what we need to do.

I understand that we can make an offer on a property through the estate agent without the need of a solicitor/lawyer. If the offer is accepted, we will sign a "proposta irrevocabile d'acquisto" and put down a deposit of EUR 2000-3000. This will tie us and the vendor into the sale for an agreed period of time. If we pull out we lose the deposit, if they pull out they pay back the deposit plus the same amount again.

We would then engage a geometra to conduct a survey of the property and carry out property searches, as well as checking out any planning or building regs questions. The agent is recommending geometras in the area. Is there any benefit in finding our own?

After this is all done we would sign the compromesso which is sort of equivalent to exchange of contracts in the UK. At this stage we would put down a deposit of one third of the purchase price.

The final contract and signing of the rogito would be organised by the notaio/notary, signed at his office, and at this stage the balance of the purchase price and all taxes would be paid. Again, the agent is recommending an English speaking notary in the area. Is it necessary for buyer and seller to each employ a notary, or is it normal for one to act for both parties?

Is there any benefit from hiring a solicitor or other lawyer in addition to the notary? We will be having all of the documents translated into English, but it would be comforting to know that there is an expert looking after our interests.

In terms of purchase costs, the purchase price is expected to be around EUR 100,000 and for other costs we have been quoted the following by the estate agent. Do these look reasonable?

Taxes - approx €10,800
notary fees €2,400
translator €200
technical report €750
compromesso registration fees approx €350
agency fees 2% of purchase price + VAT.

As I mentioned before, the properties we are looking at need extensive renovation. We are not planning to build any extension to the properties, but we would be looking to convert a cantina and stable attached to the houses into living accommodation, and perhaps build a patio and pool. Is there any way we could check out that this would be okay under local building regs before making an offer (obviously the agent says all will be well) and we start handing over money?

All your thoughts and warnings of pitfalls would be appreciated!

Thanks

Seldomseenkid

You need an English speaking Italian lawyer. This is the absolute first step.

linseed oil

hi mark on your last point take care and get indipendant advise for a gerometer completly indipendat of the estate agent and dont belive qoutes of verry low prices to do the work by estate agents the can i did not say will tell you any thing to push a sale ask around

highlander1

Hi, yes be very careful friends of mine made an offer on a property in Tuscany, for just under 100000, They were advised that renovation cost would be around 40000 by geometra, obviously in the loop with E.A.
In reality 30000 in the renovation a series of problems were ''discovered''
After a lot of anguish and heart hake and several new estimates it became quite evident that the cost of renovation would have been more than 160000 !, With the house in a worse state then when they bought it they had to abandon the project, and they lost a great of money.
Morale : be very careful and try to get independent advice and be careful before you part with any many.
Good luck

markclapham

Hi guys,

Thanks for your messages. As I am not a local, does anybody have lawyers/geometras in the Lucca area who speak English? Alternatively, I guess I could just find an English speaking lawyer in the area on the internet and ask them to recommend a geometra?


Thanks.

modicasa

Ignore the scaremongering, but keep your head on your shoulders. You do not 'absolutely' need a lawyer. You need to just keep your wits about you.
The agents breakdown of costs is about right. Your taxes are due on the rateable value of the property unless you are buying land/farm buildings etc.
The order in which you do things, and how you do them, is your choice. You do not have to sign a proposta, nor a compromesso - you can go straight to atto. Or just teh proposta and atto, or just the compromesso and atto. The agent will want you to sign something to tie you in - if you decide to do a proposta you should be leaving a tiny sum - 1000 or 2000 just to take the house off the market for a bit, while you sort out your next step.
The compromesso is the legally binding bit of the purchase, the atto is just the ratification - so there you should insert any clauses that are important to you - eg - subject t mortgage, subject to survey etc. Better however to do these things first, because even though the law allows you to get your money back, its often easier said than done.

The agent may want his money at compromesso because the law allows it. Negotiate and pay him at atto - otherwise he may well disappear. The agent must be cited in the act of sale otherwise you are liable for large fines and the atto can be annulled.

Re restoration: get quotes before signing anything. Written quotes are legally binding in Italy, which is why people are loathe to give them. Some estate agents will try and push you down the road of using their mates etc - try and get other quotes too. You are not bound to use any one geometra over another, but not all agents are trying to shaft you. If the agent is alaso being the geometra, as some do - thats illegal, he needs reporting.
Also bear in mind that Tuscany is the most vincolato region in ITaly so you need to find out whether you can do what you want to do before you even start. What is a priority is that the house results at the land registry and on paper exactly as it is in reality - because doing permissions and documentation retroactively is now longer possible and you could be stuck with a property you can never sell in the future.

I understand that we can make an offer on a property through the estate agent without the need of a solicitor/lawyer. If the offer is accepted, we will sign a "proposta irrevocabile d'acquisto" and put down a deposit of EUR 2000-3000. This will tie us and the vendor into the sale for an agreed period of time. If we pull out we lose the deposit, if they pull out they pay back the deposit plus the same amount again. Nope - you make the proposta - if they accept it, you move on, if they dont you dont. The money doesnt change hands - your cheque should never be cashed, but remain with the agent. When you pay the caparra penitenziaria at compromesso the double or nothing principle applies - a proposta is not usually a caparra penitenziaria

The buyer chooses the notary - and you want a good one. English speaking for me is not good enough - you want stuff translating on paper. So a translator is worth their while. NOtaios work for the state, so some work more, some less - you want one who will have your interests at heart. Unfortunately as notaios cant advertise you are reliant on word of mouth. THe agent may have excellent, moral reasons for suggesting his agent, or he may not. You wont know till you're in his office. (Is your agent a member of a professional association such as FIAIP? - that helps. )

200 euros for 'all the documents translated into English' is a bit optimistic!!!

markclapham

Hi Modicasa,

It is great to hear that not everyone is a crook out to scam us!

To be honest, the estate agent we are using has been really open about the state of the properties we are looking at and suggesting anticipated costs that sound reasonable (ie. really high). However, I completely agree that we have to be realistic and keep a balanced head. I've bought five houses in the UK over the years, all projects, and I would never have dreamed of relying on any information the estate agent gave me without verifying it myself. However, in the UK I am comfortable searching land registry titles, studying building codes and telephoning the planning officer. In Italy I feel completely dependent on other people to tell me what is and is not possible.

clint

Hire a good translator go to the comune technical department with the property ref, tell them what you would like to do and they will tell you yes or no and any other places you need to ask questions that way the translator is working for you and nobody else.

Pinco Pallino

Good advice.

I recently heard of a horror story:

A few years ago, a colleague moved to Italy to work out of head office. He and his family struggled with the local lingo. I had previously explained to him some of the unforgiving pitfalls of buying property in Italy.

About a year ago, after having got the 'ok' from his (Italian) mortgage provider, he put down many (many) tens of thousands of Euro at the 'compromesso – contratto preliminare di compravendita' stage. Shortly before the day of the 'atto notarlie' some months later, his mortgage provider informed him that there had been some 'problems' and would no longer be offering him the finance.

To cut a long story (of which I don't know the details) short, the deal fell through and he lost all the many, (many) tens of thousands of pounds he had put down at the 'compromesso'. He lost his savings; the vendor was probably rubbing his hands with glee and the bank was nowhere to be seen. He and his family have now taken the decision to leave Italy.

clint

Banks withdrawing mortgage offers is not unusual it happened to us in UK with Barclays, OH was selling his house to buy a smaller one, got the mortgage (smaller mortgage) offer accepted in principle which was faxed through to estate agent. Barclays then declined the offer. They were happy for OH to pay his current mortgage with with them but not a new mortgage of half the amount. A friend of mine was selling her house and 1 week before completion the buyer's bank reviewed their mortgage offer by offering 25k less. The only thing is that in UK if it all goes belly up you don't end up losing any deposit paid for a property.

modicasa

Thatis why you should put in a clausola sospensiva in the compromesso that is a 'subject to mortgage' offer and try and get the caparra held in escrow until the offer is official.

Pinco Pallino

Yes, but for my colleague it was a rather big 'only thing'!



(At least in Italy, unlike the UK, once an agreement is made, the vendor or the buyer can't just pull out of the deal up to the very last moment with no penalty whatsoever.)

clint

Obviously I feel sorry for your colleague

I agree that with the English system is too easy to pull out with no consequences (happened twice to us buyers changing their minds and we ended up with legal fees for what had been done up to that stage) or over/under gazumping at the last minute

NEWCOMO

No. This is not true.

I purchased without a lawyer. Just a notary. My wife is Italian. So she could tell me in English/Italian the issues.

The process is well documented and governed by Italian Law through notario and estate agents.

Remember you only need to pay registered agents in Italy not English ones... so you can save 3% spam agency fees(marketing).

You only need a geometra / for mortgage issues and to cover planning permissions.

The only persons you need

1. Notario (for completion and issuance of deeds)
2. Geometra (for planning permissions/boundary confirmations etc).
3. Estate agent (if you are doing through) and can negiotate the fees.
4. Bank

All other persons are just a cost !

modicasa

To be minimal the only one you must have by law is the notary.