House buying in Italy
Jun 12th 2019, 4:27 pm
#1
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House buying in Italy
Hi
I wonder if anyone with experience of buying a house, or otherwise, would mind offering some suggestions as to the best /safest way to proceed. Briefly, our budget is so meagre that we REALLY need to keep costs down. Our offer has been accepted and we are about to send our deposit. What we are thinking is that we will consider NOT using a legal firm either in the UK or Italy for the purchase. This is not based on our over confidence I hasten to add, merely an attempt to keep the costs down. We have two Italian friends living in Italy who are willing to translate all relevant documents and to be present at the deed signing with the Notary. The estate agents we are buying through are very helpful and have offered to help with everything they can.
We would be EXTREMELY grateful for any advice on this.
Cheers, Andy
I wonder if anyone with experience of buying a house, or otherwise, would mind offering some suggestions as to the best /safest way to proceed. Briefly, our budget is so meagre that we REALLY need to keep costs down. Our offer has been accepted and we are about to send our deposit. What we are thinking is that we will consider NOT using a legal firm either in the UK or Italy for the purchase. This is not based on our over confidence I hasten to add, merely an attempt to keep the costs down. We have two Italian friends living in Italy who are willing to translate all relevant documents and to be present at the deed signing with the Notary. The estate agents we are buying through are very helpful and have offered to help with everything they can.
We would be EXTREMELY grateful for any advice on this.
Cheers, Andy
Jun 12th 2019, 5:54 pm
#2
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Joined: Apr 2019
Location: Somerset UK
Posts: 86
Re: House buying in Italy
Ok please for the love of god stop right there! Certainly don't start sending deposits.
I haven't bought in Italy, although we hope to do so sooner rather than later, but given what little I have learned so far,
your post frightens the living daylights outta me!
I’m sure someone will be along shortly to give a more experienced and thoughtful response.
I haven't bought in Italy, although we hope to do so sooner rather than later, but given what little I have learned so far,
your post frightens the living daylights outta me!
I’m sure someone will be along shortly to give a more experienced and thoughtful response.
Jun 12th 2019, 6:06 pm
#3
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Re: House buying in Italy
Modicasa here would be your best bet on good advice. All I would say is that you would worry just as much having further legal advice (solicitor) if you had it. Buying property is a worrying time in the UK, even more so abroad. More importantly I don’t think you are any “safer” having additional legal advice. We did, but really for our own peace of mind even though we knew at the time having a solicitor was a waste. That is not to say you do not need to be cautious and not assume anything, this includes relying on Italian friends… Good Luck!
Jun 12th 2019, 8:23 pm
#5
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Re: House buying in Italy
Hi everyone and thanks for the comments. We do realise the potential risks of not paying for a legal rep but as far as I can see, it is the duty of both the estate agents in Italy (yes they actually have to work for their commission, unlike in the UK), and the Notary to present and check ALL the relevant documents prior to, and during the deed signing. Also, with regards to the deposit....as far as I can see, this is a standard practice which takes the property off of the market for an agreed time and should the seller pull out, they are obligated by law to repay double the deposit, approx 5,000 Euros. The documentation we have signed as co-signed by the seller, setting out their legal duties etc as well as our own.
If this is not the case, then we must have a re-think I guess.....could anyone enlighten us? As I've said, I'm loathed to pay some legal firm here £3,000 to basically do the work I could do perhaps.....sadly, this amount is substantial when considering our budget.
Again thanks for the great comments and please keep 'em coming.
Cheers, Andy
If this is not the case, then we must have a re-think I guess.....could anyone enlighten us? As I've said, I'm loathed to pay some legal firm here £3,000 to basically do the work I could do perhaps.....sadly, this amount is substantial when considering our budget.
Again thanks for the great comments and please keep 'em coming.
Cheers, Andy
Jun 12th 2019, 8:58 pm
#6
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Re: House buying in Italy
In Italian, what is the wording for the "deposit" you are paying? All things being okay, your assumtion to my knowledge is correct. But as they would say "the devil is in the detail". We got to know our solicitor quite well (one person band), to the extent we were told, honestly in our opinion, that despite the fact we stood to get twice our “deposit” back, doing so was another matter…. Importantly, you need to make sure you can afford to make a mistake, and in this I don’t mean just making sure you get the buying process right. You need to be sure you can afford to lose your hard earned cash buying in Italy where the market is very different if you are from the UK. By this I mean things go wrong and you don’t want to have a place there or need the cash from the property. If you could sell, you may lose 40-50% and/or not be able to sell for 2-3 years (in some case if you are lucky). Not wishing to be a purveyor of doom, but best forewarned, Italy is a beautiful country, but not for everyone and perhaps not what you are used to or expect. We were well briefed before buying, but astonishingly ignored all we found – still loved every bit of it.
Jun 13th 2019, 5:05 am
#7
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Re: House buying in Italy
OK - you are goong to send your deposit - meaning what exactly? Is the agent going to draw up a formal propoal to buy and you deposit will be a caparra confermatoria, and then will the proposal turn into a preliminary of sale? Your Italian friends have presumably bought houses and know their way around a bit.
Obviously you're buying with a small budget, and there is no dire need to have a UK lawyer read and trnalsate documents that are freelly available and do what the agent and notary will do ... but get paid more.
Presumbaly you have seen this house, and presumbaly you know that a cheap house is cheap for a reason. I dont know where you're buying, but the big expenses foryou over the coming years will be roof, heating, and seismic work if necessary. What is more important at this stage is to know that what you are buying is a house, and not a garage, and that it exists legally. Here you should be on safe ground as the agent and notary have legal obligations to make sure you do not buy a warehouse without knowing the fact. The agent, unless he is in cahoots wwith the seller, should be indpendent and work for both of you, assuring that the house has clean title, is legal and present no difformity to the original. If that is the case then you can buy. It may need gutting from top to bottom but it is a house, and nobody can take it away from you.
Ive been an agent here for 12 years, and in that time 2 clients have chosen to use a lawyer for various reasons. Get everything translated, know what you aresigning and dont be afraid to ask questions.
Obviously you're buying with a small budget, and there is no dire need to have a UK lawyer read and trnalsate documents that are freelly available and do what the agent and notary will do ... but get paid more.
Presumbaly you have seen this house, and presumbaly you know that a cheap house is cheap for a reason. I dont know where you're buying, but the big expenses foryou over the coming years will be roof, heating, and seismic work if necessary. What is more important at this stage is to know that what you are buying is a house, and not a garage, and that it exists legally. Here you should be on safe ground as the agent and notary have legal obligations to make sure you do not buy a warehouse without knowing the fact. The agent, unless he is in cahoots wwith the seller, should be indpendent and work for both of you, assuring that the house has clean title, is legal and present no difformity to the original. If that is the case then you can buy. It may need gutting from top to bottom but it is a house, and nobody can take it away from you.
Ive been an agent here for 12 years, and in that time 2 clients have chosen to use a lawyer for various reasons. Get everything translated, know what you aresigning and dont be afraid to ask questions.
Jun 13th 2019, 10:31 am
#8
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Re: House buying in Italy
OK - you are goong to send your deposit - meaning what exactly? Is the agent going to draw up a formal propoal to buy and you deposit will be a caparra confermatoria, and then will the proposal turn into a preliminary of sale? Your Italian friends have presumably bought houses and know their way around a bit.
Obviously you're buying with a small budget, and there is no dire need to have a UK lawyer read and trnalsate documents that are freelly available and do what the agent and notary will do ... but get paid more.
Presumbaly you have seen this house, and presumbaly you know that a cheap house is cheap for a reason. I dont know where you're buying, but the big expenses foryou over the coming years will be roof, heating, and seismic work if necessary. What is more important at this stage is to know that what you are buying is a house, and not a garage, and that it exists legally. Here you should be on safe ground as the agent and notary have legal obligations to make sure you do not buy a warehouse without knowing the fact. The agent, unless he is in cahoots wwith the seller, should be indpendent and work for both of you, assuring that the house has clean title, is legal and present no difformity to the original. If that is the case then you can buy. It may need gutting from top to bottom but it is a house, and nobody can take it away from you.
Ive been an agent here for 12 years, and in that time 2 clients have chosen to use a lawyer for various reasons. Get everything translated, know what you aresigning and dont be afraid to ask questions.
Obviously you're buying with a small budget, and there is no dire need to have a UK lawyer read and trnalsate documents that are freelly available and do what the agent and notary will do ... but get paid more.
Presumbaly you have seen this house, and presumbaly you know that a cheap house is cheap for a reason. I dont know where you're buying, but the big expenses foryou over the coming years will be roof, heating, and seismic work if necessary. What is more important at this stage is to know that what you are buying is a house, and not a garage, and that it exists legally. Here you should be on safe ground as the agent and notary have legal obligations to make sure you do not buy a warehouse without knowing the fact. The agent, unless he is in cahoots wwith the seller, should be indpendent and work for both of you, assuring that the house has clean title, is legal and present no difformity to the original. If that is the case then you can buy. It may need gutting from top to bottom but it is a house, and nobody can take it away from you.
Ive been an agent here for 12 years, and in that time 2 clients have chosen to use a lawyer for various reasons. Get everything translated, know what you aresigning and dont be afraid to ask questions.
Hi Modicasa and many thanks for the advice....wasn't aware of the "seismic" issue. I will deffo ask about that.
In answer to the questions, we have seen the house (which is in Barge (CN), Piemonte) and are aware of a minor roof repair necessary. We have an agreement with the agent that NO MONIES will be transferred until all our questions have been answered. We also have an agreement (written on the original "proposta" ) that the signing of the ownership deed will be deferred until next May, when the bulk of the money will be transferred over.
We have seen official (stamped) documents of the property plans, which state the original planning permission. Also included are boundary lines and no rights of "easement" (sorry I forget the original Italian translation). Also we have agreed not to transfer any money until we have written quotes for the roof repair and an inventory of what the seller is leaving (don't want to get stuck with a clearance bill).
I would be very grateful for any further advice and opinions on whether you think we should still have legal representation?
Again many thanks, cheers Andy
Last edited by ajv199; Jun 13th 2019 at 10:43 am.
Jun 13th 2019, 6:06 pm
#9
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Re: House buying in Italy
‘In Italian, what is the wording for the "deposit" you are paying? All things being okay, your assumtion to my knowledge is correct. But as they would say "the devil is in the detail". We got to know our solicitor quite well (one person band), to the extent we were told, honestly in our opinion, that despite the fact we stood to get twice our “deposit” back, doing so was another matter…. Importantly, you need to make sure you can afford to make a mistake, and in this I don’t mean just making sure you get the buying process right. You need to be sure you can afford to lose your hard earned cash buying in Italy where the market is very different if you are from the UK. By this I mean things go wrong and you don’t want to have a place there or need the cash from the property. If you could sell, you may lose 40-50% and/or not be able to sell for 2-3 years (in some case if you are lucky). Not wishing to be a purveyor of doom, but best forewarned, Italy is a beautiful country, but not for everyone and perhaps not what you are used to or expect. We were well briefed before buying, but astonishingly ignored all we found – still loved every bit of it.’
Excellent post Geordieborn. Post of the year in my book.
Excellent post Geordieborn. Post of the year in my book.
Jun 13th 2019, 6:28 pm
#10
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Location: Somerset UK
Posts: 86
Re: House buying in Italy
I’m almost afraid to ask this question, so please don't get upset, but I’m genuinely interested and concerned even, as to how it's actually possible to lose up to 40/50% on a house in an already depressed market?
Why don't we just buy properties at that reduced price to start with etc etc..?
Why don't we just buy properties at that reduced price to start with etc etc..?
Jun 13th 2019, 7:45 pm
#11
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Re: House buying in Italy
Outside the big cities the property market in most regions is quite illiquid. I think the statistic used to be (and could still well be true) that annual Italian property transactions run at a seventh of those in the UK. Now I am afraid that there is a great tendency for whatever reasons for Brits to overpay. Maybe it’s the fear of missing out or the influence of overseas property programmes or whatever, but generally it is true. Now couple this with many properties being renovation projects in depopulating rural areas which invariably overrun budgets you get into the land of forced sellers. Many buyers have the dream of opening and running a B&B but the market is saturated in many areas and coupled with high taxes and bureaucracy it takes a very special place to survive. Again something like 50% of UK buyers put their property back on the market within 5 years of buying. So in essence you can easily see price reductions of 40% to 50% . A property near me just sold this year after around five years on the market at over 60% below its initial marketing valuation.
Lorna is our excellent headmistress......best to keep on her right side.
Lorna is our excellent headmistress......best to keep on her right side.
Last edited by Capo Boi; Jun 13th 2019 at 8:04 pm.
Jun 13th 2019, 8:02 pm
#12
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Re: House buying in Italy
Ok CB thanks for that, however I still find those numbers incredible!
Having said that, I need to know exactly where you live and the addresses of any other houses for sale locally.
Having said that, I need to know exactly where you live and the addresses of any other houses for sale locally.
Jun 13th 2019, 8:11 pm
#13
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Re: House buying in Italy
I shall respectfully pass on that. I will add that Italians are rarely forced sellers. In my experience they are very reluctant to give much of a discount. I am not an estate agent however and would always defer to modicasa.
Last edited by Capo Boi; Jun 13th 2019 at 8:19 pm.
Jun 14th 2019, 5:00 am
#15
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Re: House buying in Italy
You have made a proposta, but not transferred any money? Some money had to be attached to the proposta, at least 1000 euros? Firstly, if you are not planning to sign the act until a year hence, it would be very sensible to transcribe the compromesso - which will cost you the same as the atto, but its the only way to lock the deal in.
You are doing the right thing not to trasnfer money , but at some point you will presumably doing a compromesso as a proposta cannot last a year, it can last a few weeks at most without drawing the attention of the taxman.
You are doing the right thing not to trasnfer money , but at some point you will presumably doing a compromesso as a proposta cannot last a year, it can last a few weeks at most without drawing the attention of the taxman.