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-   -   IT skills shortage (https://britishexpats.com/forum/information-technology-78/skills-shortage-427711/)

ed_the_lad Feb 19th 2007 4:57 am

IT skills shortage
 
I think they're lying to us!
I'm been in Melbourne 3 weeks now, i've worked in telecoms 7 years.Last year i took a year out to self study Cisco kit, i have now CCNP/CCIP . The only job adverts i see are from agencies. I've gone for an interview and technical test with one agency and scored 100%. I keep hearing about lack of commercial experience with Cisco even though i have 7+ years with other vendors , a little here are there with Cisco and hours of practise on my own Cisco lab purchased on ebay.
If there is a skills shortage surely the employer cant be so fussy, shouldn't they be happy to get someone that knows the technology?
Also most job adverts i see require you to know a hugh scope, routing,switching,security, voice etc.. In the Uk a couple of these is enough.
When i looked for jobs in the UK as soon as i put my CV online my phone was hopping and i'd have a job in afew days.Here in Oz its a different story i have spoke to a couple of agents and it hasn't moved on from there.
How can i bypass these agencies? where can i get a list of companies in Melbourne? This is starting to get to me as i've put in a hugh amount of time and effort to become competent in Cisco , i'm even considering returning to the UK as i'm eager to work.
So is there a job shortage or is it a case of companies being extremely fussy?
Or is it the agencies are brutal?

stuckinswansea Mar 4th 2007 9:21 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Hi Hope you dont mind, have posted this on BritVics http://z7.invisionfree.com/BritVics/...showtopic=3028 As I'm currently doing TRA & am a Cisco Network Manager with an IT degree but no cisco certs (not even CCNA) so you have got me worried!
Kevin


>Guys I have committed the cardinal sin of copying someone elses post on >BritishExpats but it has died in the "Working Abroad/IT" forum and >certainly has me very worried

>How typical is this?

>Does anyone else have same / different experiences?

####################QUOTE######################### ##

ed_the_lad
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 47


Default IT skills shortage
I think they're lying to us!
I'm been in Melbourne 3 weeks now, i've worked in telecoms 7 years.Last year i took a year out to self study Cisco kit, i have now CCNP/CCIP . The only job adverts i see are from agencies. I've gone for an interview and technical test with one agency and scored 100%. I keep hearing about lack of commercial experience with Cisco even though i have 7+ years with other vendors , a little here are there with Cisco and hours of practise on my own Cisco lab purchased on ebay.
If there is a skills shortage surely the employer cant be so fussy, shouldn't they be happy to get someone that knows the technology?
Also most job adverts i see require you to know a hugh scope, routing,switching,security, voice etc.. In the Uk a couple of these is enough.
When i looked for jobs in the UK as soon as i put my CV online my phone was hopping and i'd have a job in afew days.Here in Oz its a different story i have spoke to a couple of agents and it hasn't moved on from there.
How can i bypass these agencies? where can i get a list of companies in Melbourne? This is starting to get to me as i've put in a hugh amount of time and effort to become competent in Cisco , i'm even considering returning to the UK as i'm eager to work.
So is there a job shortage or is it a case of companies being extremely fussy?
Or is it the agencies are brutal?

####################QUOTE######################### ##

ed_the_lad Mar 5th 2007 5:15 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
No Problem, one month down and still nothing.I'm working towards my ccie so hopefully when i get it things will change.

stuckinswansea Mar 5th 2007 5:59 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
You really have me worried, what do you mean by 'nothing'?
Is the recruiting cycle long so you still have some interviews you haven't heard about or have you not been offered interviews.
Are more lowly jobs like helpdesk available to get some Oz experience or is it a closed door all round?
Given the number of vacancies on seek is 20x what is available in swansea, cardiff or bristol put together I was rashly expecting it to be quite easy LOL!
Are you getting any feedback or reasons from the agents or are they as sh1t as in the UK.

Kevin


Kevin

ed_the_lad Mar 5th 2007 7:33 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
When i arrived i contacted alot of agencies and regularly applied for jobs i saw on seek.Now i dont bother anymore,if i see a job advertised by a company i will apply, if its via a agency i dont bother.
The agents in the UK are great compared with here in Oz, the agents in UK are proactive and are trying to make money, the agents in Oz are hopeless,maybe they dont work on commission, thats the only thing that makes sense to me.
More than half the jobs adverted on seek and definitely fake, agents just fishing for cv's,they must have so many and thats why the response is so brutal.My firend is here to he had the same problems when he arrived 2 years ago, he works on microsoft servers etc, he finally got a job direct with a company and vows never to use agents again.
The problem is alot of companies just use agents for recruiting, and as far as IT agents go they are braindead, so these clueless guys make a decision to forward your cv on or not.So maybe the IT skills shortage in Oz is a result of the agents.
Lots of Cisco jobs everyday on seek and i cant get a look in because i've never worked a pure Cisco role even though i've got 7+ years telecoms exp and cisco certs to prove ability.
Even when i apply for jobs i have the experience for i never get a callback.
I seem to fall into a nice category of no Cisco commercial experience or im over skilled.
I think the agents give preference to Australians, just be prepared to be out of work for afew months.

Buzzy--Bee Mar 5th 2007 2:53 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Ed, it sounds to me like you are applying for jobs in an area of IT where you have no experience.

You mention you have lots of experiecne with other vendors products apart from Cisco. Are there any jobs going using this experience?

:beer:

Buzzy

ed_the_lad Mar 6th 2007 12:41 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Yes, i've applied for afew, but i used to work on Alcatel kit and its not so popular over here.The jobs i've applied for on Alcatel kit, i could do easily but still no callbacks.
I worked on Alcatel kit for 7+ years, i studied hardcore on Cisco for 1.5 years and i can safely say my Cisco knowledge is now greater than my Alcatel knowledge.Just a shame i cant get an interview as yet to show my knowledge, but i'm not worrying about it anymore, i'll just see what pans out over the next 6 months.

Buzzy--Bee Mar 6th 2007 7:20 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Ed, sorry if you're doing this already, but can I suggest calling them, instead of waiting for callbacks. Just keep ringing everybody, get out there and meet people, join your industry assoc if there is one.

Or go to Darwin and get a job working for wmoore!

:beer:

Buzzy

Ste&Dawn Mar 6th 2007 7:30 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by ed_the_lad (Post 4420708)
I think they're lying to us!
I'm been in Melbourne 3 weeks now, i've worked in telecoms 7 years.Last year i took a year out to self study Cisco kit, i have now CCNP/CCIP . The only job adverts i see are from agencies. I've gone for an interview and technical test with one agency and scored 100%. I keep hearing about lack of commercial experience with Cisco even though i have 7+ years with other vendors , a little here are there with Cisco and hours of practise on my own Cisco lab purchased on ebay.
If there is a skills shortage surely the employer cant be so fussy, shouldn't they be happy to get someone that knows the technology?
Also most job adverts i see require you to know a hugh scope, routing,switching,security, voice etc.. In the Uk a couple of these is enough.
When i looked for jobs in the UK as soon as i put my CV online my phone was hopping and i'd have a job in afew days.Here in Oz its a different story i have spoke to a couple of agents and it hasn't moved on from there.
How can i bypass these agencies? where can i get a list of companies in Melbourne? This is starting to get to me as i've put in a hugh amount of time and effort to become competent in Cisco , i'm even considering returning to the UK as i'm eager to work.
So is there a job shortage or is it a case of companies being extremely fussy?
Or is it the agencies are brutal?

Hi Ed,

I should really place a disclaimer on what I am about to write here, oh well here goes! :eek:

As a senior Cisco network engineer of 7 years I read your post with much interest as the company who I work for is currently looking to recruit a new member of staff here in the UK. We have been using agencies who help to perform the 1st level of screening and help to weed out the wheat from the chaff so to speak, or at least that's how it should be. I have had over half a
dozen supposed CCNP's come and go and as I am sure you are well aware given your background not all engineers are of equal technical ability. Whilst many of them have come across well during interview and have a CV to back them up we feel that we would not be able to recruit the correct candidate if we did not push them a litle bit further, so to speak. To that end we have been putting all prospective technicians through a Cisco lab which I have put together to ascertain their skill set, not one of them has come out the other end and this is a lab which is pitched at a good CCNP candidate. Given what you say with regards to your Cisco credentails and knowledge, hand on heart do you think that you would be capable of getting through said lab yourself? I'm talking about configuring elements of R&S, route redistribution, QoS and IPSec (Via CLI) here, all fair game for people who have stated on their CV's that they are capable of doing all of the above.

Personally, if I was looking to recruit a new member of staff and I had x number of candidates with 7 years of pure Cisco experience Vs x number of staff with 7 years of experience in Telecoms and 12-18 months experience in Cisco then I am always going to give the former candidates the nod over the latter. When it's 2am and part of the network has just burnt down who is going to be able to get the network back up and running with the minimal amount of downtime? I would like to think the former and like it or not I imagine that most employers would be thinking along the same lines.

If I was you I would look to gain my CCIE ASAP if you are up to it, that way you stand head and shoulders above most candidates. If necessary get a job at a more junior level than what you have in mind, I would suggest at the level of a CCNA who had just gained their CCNP and look to start impressing upon your employer your technical abilities ASAP.

Good luck and let us know how you go on.

Cheers,

Ste&Dawn

ed_the_lad Mar 7th 2007 6:45 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Hi Ste, nice to hear from the other side.Regarding your lab i'm sure i could get through it,on the spot the only thing i would have difficulty with is ipsec as its more of a memory thing rather than understanding and i find it a little boring.
My routing,switching and qos are great.Anyway good news today, i met with a nice agent and she's putting me forward for a job, i have a good feeling about this one and i'm pretty sure i'll get an interview.
I think the whole problem with Cisco jobs is that too many people are dumping the certs and the market is flooded with paper ccnp's.
Yes i agree with you about the ccie and i hope to have it in the next 6 months or so.
I still think its unfair to request specific commercial Cisco experience as i have my own lab and since i've worked with live networks before, i'm not exactly a novice.I think a Cisco hobbiest is potentially better than someone who's just doing the job and shouldn't be overlooked.
Maybe if things dont work out in the next 6 months i'll send you a mail :-) .

Buzzy--Bee Mar 13th 2007 4:47 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by ed_the_lad (Post 4491890)
Hi Ste, nice to hear from the other side.Regarding your lab i'm sure i could get through it,on the spot the only thing i would have difficulty with is ipsec as its more of a memory thing rather than understanding and i find it a little boring.
My routing,switching and qos are great.Anyway good news today, i met with a nice agent and she's putting me forward for a job, i have a good feeling about this one and i'm pretty sure i'll get an interview.
I think the whole problem with Cisco jobs is that too many people are dumping the certs and the market is flooded with paper ccnp's.
Yes i agree with you about the ccie and i hope to have it in the next 6 months or so.
I still think its unfair to request specific commercial Cisco experience as i have my own lab and since i've worked with live networks before, i'm not exactly a novice.I think a Cisco hobbiest is potentially better than someone who's just doing the job and shouldn't be overlooked.
Maybe if things dont work out in the next 6 months i'll send you a mail :-) .

Ed, did you get the job you mentioned in your above post?

:beer:

Buzzy

ed_the_lad Mar 15th 2007 8:40 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Just did the interview today, got a technical exam to begin with which was no problem.After the exam came a nontechnical interview,seemed to go smoothly, the interviewer was a decent guy.Hopefully i came across ok, i'll find out tomorrow.It's the first interview i've done in years so its really hard for me to tell if it went good or bad.
If all was ok i'll have a technical interview next week.
Fingers crossed,i'll keep you updated.

Buzzy--Bee Mar 15th 2007 9:43 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by ed_the_lad (Post 4520570)
Just did the interview today, got a technical exam to begin with which was no problem.After the exam came a nontechnical interview,seemed to go smoothly, the interviewer was a decent guy.Hopefully i came across ok, i'll find out tomorrow.It's the first interview i've done in years so its really hard for me to tell if it went good or bad.
If all was ok i'll have a technical interview next week.
Fingers crossed,i'll keep you updated.

Mmmm keep us posted. Don't understand why they do a technical exam and then a technical interview.....

:beer:

Buzzy

ed_the_lad Mar 16th 2007 3:34 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Ok i passed the first interview, now i have a the second on Monday, i'll let you know how it goes.Safe to say i'm going to have a bad weekend.

sunburn Mar 16th 2007 9:44 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Try and relax Ed, if they asked you back you've obviously passed their 1st stage, so thats good news. Worst case take this as valuable interview experience and perhaps take things in your stride in the interview so you dont come across to eager/desperate, I know thats easy for me to say back here!
Good Luck for Monday

SB - a fellow Cisco bod

ed_the_lad Mar 22nd 2007 10:04 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Things aren't looking too bad at the moment, i did well on the second technical interview and now my references are being checked, its out of my hands now!

stuckinswansea Mar 22nd 2007 10:17 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 
I'll keep everything crossed for you!

dogscogs Mar 27th 2007 11:45 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 
I've just sent off my RPL to the ACS so I'm quite a way off from job hunting yet.

Have many others had similar problems with recruiters in Oz being lazy?

Also, I have noticed from the Job sites that the Australian idea of a network engineer seems to encompass things like MCSE's and Security Engineers too - am I looking for the wrong job title or is there a genuine lack of specialization within the industry in Oz?

BoredinBelfast Mar 30th 2007 5:29 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Hi Dogscogs - interestingly as a security consultant in the same position as yourself I am astounded by the apparent lack of specialisation. Anyone out there got any experience of this or are the recruiters simply trying to 'cast their net' wide??

stuckinswansea Mar 30th 2007 5:46 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by BoredinBelfast (Post 4583297)
Hi Dogscogs - interestingly as a security consultant in the same position as yourself I am astounded by the apparent lack of specialisation. Anyone out there got any experience of this or are the recruiters simply trying to 'cast their net' wide??

It can be as bad here!
This is from a UK Agency yesterday, Routers/VPN, AD Admin, Telephones, SQL Admin....

:D Three guys and all for 20k GBP

Kevin



printers, scanners, whiteboards & projectors etc.
·TCP/IP network infrastructure support e.g. Routers, Firewalls, VPN etc.
·Office systems e.g. Word, Spreadsheet, PowerPoint, Email

·Maintenance of domain accounts within an Active Directory structure
·Software deployment/installation
·Administration of SQL databases
·Backups and restoring

·Installation of telephone handsets, fax


dogscogs Apr 1st 2007 9:15 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 
lol, I think they want a one man IT department by the sound of it :-)

sunburn Apr 20th 2007 1:40 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Having just got back from an interview I wondered how you'd got on ?
...well Ed ?
:zzz:

ed_the_lad Apr 21st 2007 9:14 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
I got the job! I start on Tuesday, 3 month contract, but its the foot in the door i needed, senior position, so i'm pretty happy! Hope all goes well for you and the job your searching for.

sunburn Apr 21st 2007 9:48 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by ed_the_lad (Post 4676462)
I got the job! I start on Tuesday, 3 month contract, but its the foot in the door i needed, senior position, so i'm pretty happy! Hope all goes well for you and the job your searching for.


congratulations :thumbup:

Ste&Dawn Apr 21st 2007 5:11 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by ed_the_lad (Post 4676462)
I got the job! I start on Tuesday, 3 month contract, but its the foot in the door i needed, senior position, so i'm pretty happy! Hope all goes well for you and the job your searching for.

Hey there ED nice one! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

As a matter of interest is the job which you have been offered a senior Cisco role? May I be cheeky enough to ask how much they have offered you?

Oh by the way welcome to the world of Cisco, now the really hard work starts!

Steve

stuckinswansea Apr 21st 2007 5:49 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by ed_the_lad (Post 4676462)
I got the job! I start on Tuesday, 3 month contract, but its the foot in the door i needed, senior position, so i'm pretty happy! Hope all goes well for you and the job your searching for.

Well done Ed, I think quite a few of us have been following your progress and wondering what it will be like for them when they finally arrive!
Good to see you have got a result in 3-4 months but it must have been a nail biting time!

Kevin

BoredinBelfast Apr 21st 2007 6:50 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Congratulations Ed - well done you!

ed_the_lad Apr 22nd 2007 4:19 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by Ste&Dawn (Post 4677892)
Hey there ED nice one! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

As a matter of interest is the job which you have been offered a senior Cisco role? May I be cheeky enough to ask how much they have offered you?

Oh by the way welcome to the world of Cisco, now the really hard work starts!

Steve

Yes, its a senior Cisco role, $450 per day, thanks all!!

Richardowen Apr 29th 2007 4:32 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by stuckinswansea (Post 4583357)
It can be as bad here!
This is from a UK Agency yesterday, Routers/VPN, AD Admin, Telephones, SQL Admin....

:D Three guys and all for 20k GBP

Kevin



printers, scanners, whiteboards & projectors etc.
·TCP/IP network infrastructure support e.g. Routers, Firewalls, VPN etc.
·Office systems e.g. Word, Spreadsheet, PowerPoint, Email

·Maintenance of domain accounts within an Active Directory structure
·Software deployment/installation
·Administration of SQL databases
·Backups and restoring

·Installation of telephone handsets, fax



This is called skills fishing... the company has little money or a small IT budget, and is chancing their arm - seeing what they can get for the money. They'll end up with fairly low skilled people that know a little about a lot of different things and never have the money to give them any further training.

Saying that, it's funny to me that people still think that job's come with specific salaries. At the end of the day a job is worth what someone is willing to accept to do it. That's why there's often a big difference between salaries for the same positions within many companies, especially in the IT field. It's also why it's not a good idea to ever tell any of your co-workers what you make. :rofl:

IMHO there's a shyness in the UK when it comes to asking for money which is silly cos if you don't ask you don't get. If you get offered a job they will likely ask you what you expect to be paid, within a salary range that you should always know before the interview.

From my several years of experience recruiting Network Engineers the vast majority of people will go for somewhere just above the middle of this range. It baffles me why people don't ask for the top value straight away.

Rich./

stuckinswansea Apr 29th 2007 7:48 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by Richardowen (Post 4712269)
This is called skills fishing... the company has little money or a small IT budget, and is chancing their arm - seeing what they can get for the money. They'll end up with fairly low skilled people that know a little about a lot of different things and never have the money to give them any further training.

Saying that, it's funny to me that people still think that job's come with specific salaries. At the end of the day a job is worth what someone is willing to accept to do it. That's why there's often a big difference between salaries for the same positions within many companies, especially in the IT field. It's also why it's not a good idea to ever tell any of your co-workers what you make. :rofl:

IMHO there's a shyness in the UK when it comes to asking for money which is silly cos if you don't ask you don't get. If you get offered a job they will likely ask you what you expect to be paid, within a salary range that you should always know before the interview.

From my several years of experience recruiting Network Engineers the vast majority of people will go for somewhere just above the middle of this range. It baffles me why people don't ask for the top value straight away.

Rich./

Good advice, thanks!

I agree, I tend only to see this in the 18 to 25k range where 'experience of IIS' usually means 'knows how to start and stop the service' not 'can build a server farm from scratch'

stuckinswansea May 12th 2007 6:33 pm

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by ed_the_lad (Post 4679411)
Yes, its a senior Cisco role, $450 per day, thanks all!!


Hi Ed, How's the first few weeks been?

Any comments on working in a Cisco role in Melbourne?
Where do networks sit in Oz organisations?
Is it under the IT manager or Telcomms/Infrastructure or does it stand alone?
Any other comments ?

(bunch of slave drivers/slackers ..... cutting edge/catching up)

Anyway, hope it's working for you.

Kevin

ed_the_lad May 15th 2007 3:27 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 
Three weeks in everything is going fine, i'm working with CatOS daily and now i'm completely up to speed with it.I dont see too many difference between here and Europe, you still get the same mix of individuals, i've got one on my team that seems a little threatened by by arrival, another guy about 25 who thinks he's God until he makes a f*** up.
Where the network sits in the organization really depends on what the bread and butter of the company you work for is.My company resolves around customer networks and thats the focus, so it will be under Telcomms/Infrastructure.If i worked for a bank where the network is a necessary evil it would fall under the IT manager.
Last week i was told by one of the senior engineers who hired me to be less proactive and let the customer explored all avenues before providing support.I basically cut the job time from 8 hrs to 4hrs by fixing their configurations prior to implementation, now i'm told to let them implement incorrectly first and fix later.If these are the games i must play to get extended then lets play ball :-)
.

chmaiden Aug 28th 2007 9:55 am

Re: IT skills shortage
 

Originally Posted by ed_the_lad (Post 4782005)
Three weeks in everything is going fine, i'm working with CatOS daily and now i'm completely up to speed with it.I dont see too many difference between here and Europe, you still get the same mix of individuals, i've got one on my team that seems a little threatened by by arrival, another guy about 25 who thinks he's God until he makes a f*** up.
Where the network sits in the organization really depends on what the bread and butter of the company you work for is.My company resolves around customer networks and thats the focus, so it will be under Telcomms/Infrastructure.If i worked for a bank where the network is a necessary evil it would fall under the IT manager.
Last week i was told by one of the senior engineers who hired me to be less proactive and let the customer explored all avenues before providing support.I basically cut the job time from 8 hrs to 4hrs by fixing their configurations prior to implementation, now i'm told to let them implement incorrectly first and fix later.If these are the games i must play to get extended then lets play ball :-)
.

what agencies did you use Ed? Am arriving in 3 weeks and want to stat asap!
cheers


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