Republic Day

Old Feb 11th 2019, 8:00 am
  #76  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
Again come back when you know what communism is, how it operates , how communist government's work manage economies..
Here is a hint, look at the old USSR, North Korea, Cuba.
Then compare them to the socialist parties you claim are communist.
All that is communist about them is their name., nothing else.
EMR it is not MY claim. As you admit--- THEIR name.

Explain EMR ----why do the parties in question call themselves Marxist then? Perhaps you could write a letter and explain to them the mistake they are making I am sure they will be SO grateful!!!!

PS----You still haven't answered the question!!!!!! (about your obsession)
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 8:13 am
  #77  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR it is not MY claim. As you admit--- THEIR name.

Explain EMR ----why do the parties in question call themselves Marxist then? Perhaps you could write a letter and explain to them the mistake they are making I am sure they will be SO grateful!!!!

PS----You still haven't answered the question!!!!!! (about your obsession)
Confused you definetly are, .
I am not being led up another of your sad efforts to divert posters away from your inability to deal with facts...
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 8:45 am
  #78  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
Confused you definetly are, .
I am not being led up another of your sad efforts to divert posters away from your inability to deal with facts...
I am not confused EMR.

I asked you two questions -----so give me the "FACTS".

1) Why is the Communist (Marxist) party of India called "The Communist Party of India (Marxist)?
2) Whys are you obsessed with India?

Yes, stop this diversion and get back to the topic of the thread (which I introduced)----Republic Day.


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Old Feb 11th 2019, 8:57 am
  #79  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
I am not confused EMR.

I asked you two questions -----so give me the "FACTS".

1) Why is the Communist (Marxist) party of India called "The Communist Party of India (Marxist)?
2) Whys are you obsessed with India?

Yes, stop this diversion and get back to the topic of the thread (which I introduced)----Republic Day.
You really are getting worse.
You posted a link from wiki which you obviously have not read.
The communist parties of India are as communist as the BJP is a secular all encompassing , non religious party..
Facts again Bipat , one day you will understand what the word means...
Fortunately there are at least two other posters on this thread who are prepared to debate, have you read the most recent..?

Last edited by EMR; Feb 11th 2019 at 9:00 am.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 9:24 am
  #80  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
You really are getting worse.
You posted a link from wiki which you obviously have not read.
The communist parties of India are as communist as the BJP is a secular all encompassing , non religious party..
Facts again Bipat , one day you will understand what the word means...
Fortunately there are at least two other posters on this thread who are prepared to debate, have you read the most recent..?
I asked you two questions which you have not answered!
I have read the posts of the two other posters ---and replied to both at various times.





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Old Feb 11th 2019, 9:30 am
  #81  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
I asked you two questions which you have not answered!
I have read the posts of the two other posters ---and replied to both at various times.
Not obsessed with India, but someone including Morpeth and others have to correct the fantastical claims you continue to make about the India of today and the history of the sub continent..
Unlikely but someone might actually come to these forums hoping to be informed and perish the thought that they rely on your views for knowledge and information..
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 9:46 am
  #82  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by madathil.krishnanunni


Sir, I think comparing the UK with India over time on the bases you’ve used is a misleading exercise. The politics of both places have changed so much over this period, with Britain shifting from mercantilist to capitalist to socialist. Britain, like a few other European countries, were imperialist powers with overseas possessions, which India was not. Even a unified Indian nation state on modern lines is a relatively recent phenomenon. The historical experiences of the two countries have little parallel. It would be more apt to compare India’s, or at a granular level, any of the states’ performance with other similar countries with similar histories.

The seminal event of the 20th century for much of Asia was decolonization and the formation of modern nation states. Many of the economies started from zero; those that had industrialized previously such as Japan were brought back to zero thanks to war. Most of Asia’s leading centers today such as the Asian tigers had their seminal moments in the aftermath of the Second World War.

Comparing India’s own performance as a free republic to its own past as a colony is really pointless. As you can see, it is a stagnant line until after freedom. It is like comparing the heartbeat of a baby before and after its birth - what’s the point? It would make sense to compare India’s economic performance with that of countries such as Japan, China, Thailand, Korea, Singapore etc; its contemporaries. And on that count, you don’t have to dig in much to say India has been a chronic laggard for most of its 70 years as a nation state, only beginning to be in the race now, let alone catch up. Even Pakistan had an economy galloping faster until the 1970s. You could also compare India’s performance to that of West Germany, which was also a zero economy after WW2 and became a new state only in 1949. Most of the modern wealth of nations is a product of the events after 1945.

The real divergence between even India and China started only in the 1980s, when China opened up after realizing socialism there wasn’t really doing anything. Had the Soviet Union never ended in 1991, chances are India would still have been socialist in practice. Thank God the moral argument for socialism really met an end with that. Or it hasn’t, judging by EMR’s posts. There are still some socialist geniuses like Maduro doing the rounds. Laughable.

At any rate, with a per capita GDP of less than USD 2,000 in 2017, a real exercise would be to compare India’s GDP per capita to other leading Asian countries to get a real sense of where India has got it wrong. It is convenient but pointless to blame the British, 70 whole years after they left. You don’t hear Japan lamenting about the US for their economic condition - the latter nuked them twice. The official Japanese poverty line, announced in 2011, is USD 22,000 - for a country that was nuked twice two years before India became free. You don’t hear the Koreans lamenting about the oppression of the Japanese for their economic predicament. I only hope the current and future generations of Indians look more into self-improvement rather than playing these silly blame games.
Agree with most of your post and the socialist Congress party has made the escape from poverty slower.
I don't think people nowadays look back to British rule ---the young are not really taught much history in schools.

However you cannot know how India as an entirety would have progressed (or not) without the Raj.
The inherited basic poverty had become entrenched over many years/ decades.

What is your opinion of your compatriot Tharoor's book--- "An Era of Darkness"---?
Regarding the author--Do you think the charges will stick--??
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 10:15 am
  #83  
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Default Re: Republic Day

The chart of Indian GDP growth is mirrored by just about every free market economy.
The time periods may differ but the graphs would be almost identical..
This suggests that governance has less effect than some think but that global trends and shifts are the biggest influences..
As pointed out, the dramatic growth in those countries devastated by WW2 or those moving from a centrally managed to a more free market economy have been the drivers in global growth which all economies have benefitted from or as Trump claims some have suffered from....
India for decades was the recipient of Billions in aid which helped feed its population , finance projects, , credit must be given to the government's of the time who played off one superpower against another..
India was the biggest ever recipient in aid , as one commentator put it " , Aid to India , financing the leviathan ".

.

Last edited by EMR; Feb 11th 2019 at 10:18 am.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 6:51 pm
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
Agree with most of your post and the socialist Congress party has made the escape from poverty slower.
I don't think people nowadays look back to British rule ---the young are not really taught much history in schools.

However you cannot know how India as an entirety would have progressed (or not) without the Raj.
The inherited basic poverty had become entrenched over many years/ decades.

What is your opinion of your compatriot Tharoor's book--- "An Era of Darkness"---?
Regarding the author--Do you think the charges will stick--??
Most of humanity was poor until the 19th century. Most of humanity is poor today. The rapid technological innovations and medical advances, spread astonishingly rapidly thanks to modern means of transport and communication is mostly responsible for ending debilitating poverty in most parts of the world including Europe and India and must of the ROW.

You see, I don’t fault the INC too much - they were as misled as many other newly free countries were in that period, what with the Soviets painting themselves as friends of the free and what not. They inherited a British machinery of state which they were too careful not to tinker with too much lest the country fall into pieces. They were too reluctant to fundamentally alter the bureaucratic state inherited from the British. They had an ideology problem, the INC. Indian nationalism was fine, but what else. For a very long time, they considered nationalism to be on the lines of one nation, one language etc. So they peddled with forcibly imposing Hindi on a majority non-Hindi population, sparking backlash from TN to Maharashtra and Bengal. They tried socialism also, as was the fashion in much of the Third World. They tried forcibly shoving Muslims and Hindus together through secularism - its oddities are being laid bare today. I suspect Hindu nationalism came about as a direct rebuttal to this warped attempt at multiculturalism. There is a reason why people as different from each other as Punjab and TN wish to share a nation-state; a lack of studied animosity. I think what the INC were most engaged in was reconciliation of the various parts of India and forging a common consensus in a top-down manner. This they fundamentally failed to do in full, although they did contribute. The BJP and their allies simply built on this platform beginning in the 80s. They have reconciled themselves to the multi-lingual, multi-ethnic nature of Indians and esp. Modi has made bank on this observation. It is facile to think Indian leaders and politics grew up in vacuums; they affected one another through time.

Shashi Tharoor’s exercise in oppression olympics - the Empire of Darkness - has met with great success among the gullible public who are overawed with his RP accent than with the content of his speech or prose. Most of them don’t even notice the sheer irony that a quintessential Indian Englishman is telling them about the ignominy of being under British rule. Pretentious nonsense. Don’t waste your time on him.

The young are not taught about British Raj? What do you think 15th of August is all about? I much prefer Republic Day than this annual exercise in chest-beating and lamenting. I even think the Dandi Salt March, the event engineered by Gandhi which crystallized imperial oppression for all to see, was more important than the British actually leaving of their own accord.

I think it it would be socially abrupt to direct, say benefit transfers, to only the poorest sections of society, identified through oppression mapping. It is true that almost all people, whether “rich” or poor in a backward area are wanting for opportunity. Not all poor are socially oppressed, or poor because of social oppression alone. It would perhaps be better to improve opportunities for the area has a whole while ensuring equal opportunity and access for everyone. For an economy its size, Indians are performing far far below their true potential.

I happen to think a shift from petroleum and plastics to traditional materials would perhaps have a significant impact on employment in traditional industries, which could improve employment and reduce poverty. Because petroleum is such an efficient resource, replacing the need for so many workers, you have the unemployment you see. Maybe Mr. Lalu Yadav had a point when he imposed kulhads on Indian Rail. By no means am I a Luddite; just an observation this is.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 7:58 pm
  #85  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by madathil.krishnanunni


1) Most of humanity was poor until the 19th century. Most of humanity is poor today. The rapid technological innovations and medical advances, spread astonishingly rapidly thanks to modern means of transport and communication is mostly responsible for ending debilitating poverty in most parts of the world including Europe and India and must of the ROW.

You see, I don’t fault the INC too much - they were as misled as many other newly free countries were in that period, what with the Soviets painting themselves as friends of the free and what not. They inherited a British machinery of state which they were too careful not to tinker with too much lest the country fall into pieces. They were too reluctant to fundamentally alter the bureaucratic state inherited from the British. They had an ideology problem, the INC. Indian nationalism was fine, but what else. For a very long time, they considered nationalism to be on the lines of one nation, one
2) language etc. So they peddled with forcibly imposing Hindi on a majority non-Hindi population, sparking backlash from TN to Maharashtra and Bengal. They tried socialism also, as was the fashion in much of the Third World.
3) They tried forcibly shoving Muslims and Hindus together through secularism - its oddities are being laid bare today. I suspect Hindu nationalism came about as a direct rebuttal to this warped attempt at multiculturalism. There is a reason why people as different from each other as Punjab and TN wish to share a nation-state; a lack of studied animosity. I think what the INC were most engaged in was reconciliation of the various parts of India and forging a common consensus in a top-down manner. This they fundamentally failed to do in full, although they did contribute. The BJP and their allies simply built on this platform beginning in the 80s. They have reconciled themselves to the multi-lingual, multi-ethnic nature of Indians and esp. Modi has made bank on this observation. It is facile to think Indian leaders and politics grew up in vacuums; they affected one another through time.

4 )Shashi Tharoor’s exercise in oppression olympics - the Empire of Darkness - has met with great success among the gullible public who are overawed with his RP accent than with the content of his speech or prose. Most of them don’t even notice the sheer irony that a quintessential Indian Englishman is telling them about the ignominy of being under British rule. Pretentious nonsense. Don’t waste your time on him.

5) The young are not taught about British Raj? What do you think 15th of August is all about? I much prefer Republic Day than this annual exercise in chest-beating and lamenting. I even think the Dandi Salt March, the event engineered by Gandhi which crystallized imperial oppression for all to see, was more important than the British actually leaving of their own accord.

I think it it would be socially abrupt to direct, say benefit transfers, to only the poorest sections of society, identified through oppression mapping. It is true that almost all people, whether “rich” or poor in a backward area are wanting for opportunity. Not all poor are socially oppressed, or poor because of social oppression alone. It would perhaps be better to improve opportunities for the area has a whole while ensuring equal opportunity and access for everyone. For an economy its size, Indians are performing far far below their true potential.

I happen to think a shift from petroleum and plastics to traditional materials would perhaps have a significant impact on employment in traditional industries, which could improve employment and reduce poverty. Because petroleum is such an efficient resource, replacing the need for so many workers, you have the unemployment you see.
6) Maybe Mr. Lalu Yadav had a point when he imposed kulhads on Indian Rail. By no means am I a Luddite; just an observation this is.

1) Yes you are correct to a great extent but the poverty in India was increased and maintained by interference from outside.

2) I think it was the Southern States that objected to Hindi, however Nehru's reorganisation of State boundaried and enforcement of State languages is still causing problems. For example part of the Bombay Presidency where the language was Marathi became Karnataka and all official documents have to be in Kannada, (not an easy language for those not brought up with it.)

3) Muslims and Hindus get on together in much of central Indian States.

4) Tharoors book is well written, multitude of references, it has a bibliography of 130 books (useful for EMR to read) . Many would agree with his views.
It was Keralans who voted for him to get a seat.
Present criminal charges might well end his career.

5) I would disagree, the young, in Government schools seem to have no history taught at all.

6) Lalu Yadav is something of a joke to many!!!



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Old Feb 11th 2019, 8:19 pm
  #86  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) Yes you are correct to a great extent but the poverty in India was increased and maintained by interference from outside.

2) I think it was the Southern States that objected to Hindi, however Nehru's reorganisation of State boundaried and enforcement of State languages is still causing problems. For example part of the Bombay Presidency where the language was Marathi became Karnataka and all official documents have to be in Kannada, (not an easy language for those not brought up with it.)

3) Muslims and Hindus get on together in much of central Indian States.

4) Tharoors book is well written, multitude of references, it has a bibliography of 130 books (useful for EMR to read) . Many would agree with his views.
It was Keralans who voted for him to get a seat.
Present criminal charges might well end his career.

5) I would disagree, the young, in Government schools seem to have no history taught at all.

6) Lalu Yadav is something of a joke to many!!!
Please explain how the enormous amounts of aid India received, from both the west and Soviet Russia the projects that were financed by this aid increased or maintained poverty levels..
Your statement makes no sense..
How much poorer and how many would have died in India without it ?.

Bipat may have a point regarding history education, a quick Google search revealed that in at least one state, history text books suggest that the Moghuls were defeated , India won the 1962 war with China and that Ghandi was not murdered.
Another reference stared that within months of independence the history of the sub continent as taught in schools up to that time was to be rewritten..

Last edited by EMR; Feb 11th 2019 at 8:39 pm.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 8:51 pm
  #87  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
Please explain how the enormous amounts of aid India received, from both the west and Soviet Russia the projects that were financed by this aid increased or maintained poverty levels..
Your statement makes no sense..
How much poorer and how many would have died in India without it ?.

Bipat may have a point regarding history education, a quick Google search revealed that in at least one state, history text books suggest that the Moghuls were defeated , India won the 1962 war with China and that Ghandi was not murdered.


Another reference stared that within months of independence the history of the sub continent as taught in schools up to that time was to be rewritten..

1) Once again you do not read posts.
My reply was to the OP regarding 'quote' "UP TO THE 19TH CENTURY". In other words pre- independence.

2) I haven't heard those views expressed ---could you give a link.
I haven't met anyone unable to spell the name of Gandhi.

Last edited by Bipat; Feb 11th 2019 at 8:56 pm.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 8:58 pm
  #88  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) Once again you do not read posts.
My reply was to the OP regarding 'quote' "UP TO THE 19TH CENTURY". In other words pre- independence.
Up to the 19th century, , the early 1800s onwards British infuence was minimal, so who were those outside influences...
Independence was in the 20th century. ..
The post you referee to stated up to the 19th century " it was in the 19th century that British rule was established and the rapid expansion of those areas controlled or allied with the British actually happened..
look at the dates of Wellingtons victories, the Sikh wars, the annexations that contributed to the events in 1857 , all in the 19th cdntury , not before.

You always ignore the levels of self government that existed in thd princely states and increasingly on the subcontinent as power was passed back to local politicuans.
Question for you, was poverty in the Princely states higher or lower than that in those areas under direct British rule.?.


Just Google, how is Indian history taught, you would be amazed at what comes up..
The examples I gave were in the state of MP..

As for spelling, it what is what comes up on spell check....

Last edited by EMR; Feb 11th 2019 at 9:10 pm.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 9:05 pm
  #89  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
Up to the 19th century, , the early 1800s onwards British infuence was minimal, so who were those outside influences...
Independence was in the 20th century. ..
The post you referee to stated up to the 19th century " it was in the 19th century that British rule was established and the rapid expansion of those areas controlled or allied with the British actually happened.
You always ignore the levels of self government that existed in thd princely states and increasingly on the subcontinent as power was passed back to local politicuans.

It is in the history books, assumjng the ones you read have not been rewritten. To change the facts.
Once again you fail to read. I said "interference from outside", I did not mention the British.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 9:13 pm
  #90  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
Once again you fail to read. I said "interference from outside", I did not mention the British.
I ask again, who was responsible for this interference from outside as it was not the British given that the majority of the subcontinent was ruled by the local rajahs etc
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