Republic Day

Old Feb 13th 2019, 10:40 am
  #136  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
India has a "military base" on "almost every street corner" ??????? EMR even for you this is bizarre!!

I pointed out that the word Bharat referred to the ENTITY now known as 'India'. You were under the impression that the British invented the country.

The word is used in a general way as a 'name', as I told you Bharti is a common girls name.


Obviously 150 years of British rule names were changed and came into everyday use. Just as some of the the names of cities/towns were changed ---NOT ALL. though.

English is an official language in India. Those Ministers from the Southern States who object to Hindi were allowed to 'swear in' in English, in fact some northern Ministers also used it.

Most people use some English words in everyday conversation including the elderly. The middle classes in British times who went to school were taught in English.
They didn't all 'drop dead' in 1947!!!!


PS ---when you said "military"---were you mixing up with police? The police constables have a similar uniform.
Certainly not confusing police with military, unless the police have huge airbase , tanks, etc.

I was not referring to the past , but today, changing atitude s etc among the urban young.

Even Nehru referred to the mythical derivation of Bharat,
The entity mythical or otherwise refers to was just a part of what is now known as India with little or no connection with huge numbers of the population, their culture, religion, origin etc
Its as relevant to the India of today as is the Roman Empire to the UK..
It is thowever the platform for Hindh nationalism ,nothing more..
Names have little to do with current reality, mine apparently has some Celtic connection, of passing interest nothing more..
I know that you will continue to ignore facts, recorded history , multiple source after source as you always have done.
I am more than happy with my views regarding the derivation of India , it's meaning in every practical and historical context it being the same as that of Indian academics ....

As the British were the controlling power , that bought India broadly under one central rule it was British rule that led to the formation of the India, the entity as it exists today.
If the conservatives had won the 1945 election , Churchill staying in power ,I doubt that India would have gained independence for some time after 1947.
Increasing self government, but not Independence ....
Churchills view are well known., throughout his political career he was against it..
When he broadly accepted the terms Mountbatten had agreed he was under the impression that India would be given Dominion status, retain allegiance to the crown..
There is correspondence between him and Attire confirming that.
So to put it simply , India owes the events of 1947 to the change of government in the UK.in 1945..

Last edited by EMR; Feb 13th 2019 at 11:01 am.
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 11:27 am
  #137  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
1)Certainly not confusing police with military, unless the police have huge airbase , tanks, etc.

2) I was not referring to the past , but today, changing atitude s etc among the urban young.

3) Even Nehru referred to the mythical derivation of Bharat,
The entity mythical or otherwise refers to was just a part of what is now known as India with little or no connection with huge numbers of the population, their culture, religion, origin etc
Its as relevant to the India of today as is the Roman Empire to the UK..
It is thowever the platform for Hindh nationalism ,nothing more..
Names have little to do with current reality, mine apparently has some Celtic connection, of passing interest nothing more..

4) know that you will continue to ignore facts, recorded history , multiple source after source as you always have done.
I am more than happy with my views regarding the derivation of India , it's meaning in every practical and historical context it being the same as that of Indian academics ....

5) As the British were the controlling power , that bought India broadly under one central rule it was British rule that led to the formation of the India, the entity as it exists today.
If the conservatives had won the 1945 election , Churchill staying in power ,I doubt that India would have gained independence for some time after 1947.
Increasing self government, but not Independence ....
Churchills view are well known., throughout his political career he was against it..
When he broadly accepted the terms Mountbatten had agreed he was under the impression that India would be given Dominion status, retain allegiance to the crown..
There is correspondence between him and Attire confirming that.
6) So to put it simply , India owes the events of 1947 to the change of government in the UK.in 1945..

1) EMR there are not "military bases and tanks" on "every street corner in India"-------you are being ridiculous. (Even Dabolim airport ---owned partly by the navy---doesn't have 'tanks'!!)

2) English to some extent has always been spoken by the urban people of any age apart from the very poor.

3) I said that Bharat is used as a name for companies, businesses, people. Indian people know what it means. No world country is the same as it was thousands of years ago!!!

4) I am not ignoring recorded history just your interpretation and lack of knowledge as regarding context.

5) Ashoka had previously brought most of 'India' under one rule -----that is why the Ashoka Chakra is on the Indian flag.

6) I presume you mean Attlee, yes Churchill's views are well known-----(somewhat similar to yours and Morpeth's!!)


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Old Feb 13th 2019, 12:39 pm
  #138  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) EMR there are not "military bases and tanks" on "every street corner in India"-------you are being ridiculous. (Even Dabolim airport ---owned partly by the navy---doesn't have 'tanks'!!)

2) English to some extent has always been spoken by the urban people of any age apart from the very poor.

3) I said that Bharat is used as a name for companies, businesses, people. Indian people know what it means. No world country is the same as it was thousands of years ago!!!

4) I am not ignoring recorded history just your interpretation and lack of knowledge as regarding context.

5) Ashoka had previously brought most of 'India' under one rule -----that is why the Ashoka Chakra is on the Indian flag.

6) I presume you mean Attlee, yes Churchill's views are well known-----(somewhat similar to yours and Morpeth's!!)
​​​​​​
When ever you lose an argument despite nothing to support it you start making stupid accusations.Stating historical fact does not mean that there is any support for the views behind those facts
The world has moved on since 2000 years ago. Is it not time you. Did..
​​​​


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Old Feb 13th 2019, 12:54 pm
  #139  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
​​​​​​
When ever you lose an argument despite nothing to support it you start making stupid accusations.Stating historical fact does not mean that there is any support for the views behind those facts
The world has moved on since 2000 years ago. Is it not time you. Did..
​​​​
What argument have I lost?

I think your above posts about "tanks", language etc. concerned last year,

The flag is the present flag.

I agreed that Attlee hastened independence. Morpeth stated that it should have been 25 years later!!
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 1:13 pm
  #140  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
What argument have I lost?

I think your above posts about "tanks", language etc. concerned last year,

The flag is the present flag.

I agreed that Attlee hastened independence. Morpeth stated that it should have been 25 years later!!
There is no longer any point is discussing any subject with you.
Indian academics disagree with you, who do you think any sane person is going to agree with, them or you..
Morpeth may have been right, it may well have taken cindiderbsly longer for India to obtain full indeoe fence had Labour not won the 1945 election.
Dominion status yes , Independence , who knows..
Between them all the parties responsible for Independence and partition have the blood of maybe over a million people on their hands.
I leave it to you to judge if that was a price worth paying...
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 1:58 pm
  #141  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
There is no longer any point is discussing any subject with you.
Indian academics disagree with you, who do you think any sane person is going to agree with, them or you..
Morpeth may have been right, it may well have taken cindiderbsly longer for India to obtain full indeoe fence had Labour not won the 1945 election.
Dominion status yes , Independence , who knows..
Between them all the parties responsible for Independence and partition have the blood of maybe over a million people on their hands.
I leave it to you to judge if that was a price worth paying...
Yes EMR no longer any point. Do you still think there are tanks on every street corner???? That the flag isn't how I described?

What are you saying that academics disagree with? ( I will give you something to think about there are hundreds of Indian academics ------do you really think that they all agree with each other on everything??)

Again you get it wrong; Morpeth stated in his view, India should NOT have been given independence until 25 years later.
So you agree?
The haste (a few weeks) and the Radcliffe line were important causes (not the only causes) in the violence that followed partition.
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 2:27 pm
  #142  
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Default Re: Republic Day

BIPAT your fantasies and inventions grow with every post.
I do not know how long it would have taken for India to gain independence if Labour had not been in power with all those involved putting
a deadline before ensuring a stable transfer of power.
But under a Churchill government it would have taken longer and may have cost fewer lives.
If the majority of academics. Indian and others subscribe to one view then only those who ignore facts. recorded history would think differently.That I think describes you to a tee..
I look forward to your next venture into the land of myths and fantasy.

Last edited by EMR; Feb 13th 2019 at 2:32 pm.
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 2:49 pm
  #143  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
BIPAT your fantasies and inventions grow with every post.
I do not know how long it would have taken for India to gain independence if Labour had not been in power with all those involved putting
a deadline before ensuring a stable transfer of power.
But under a Churchill government it would have taken longer and may have cost fewer lives.
If the majority of academics. Indian and others subscribe to one view then only those who ignore facts. recorded history would think differently.That I think describes you to a tee..
I look forward to your next venture into the land of myths and fantasy.
EMR----you will not accept that you have a reading problem---and you then proceed to write an abusive post.


I AGREED with you that Attlee speeded up the decision for independence.

I said it was MORPETH'S VIEW that it should not have happened until 25 years later.

Certainly a few months were needed to draw a proper border line and prepare.
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 3:12 pm
  #144  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR----you will not accept that you have a reading problem---and you then proceed to write an abusive post.


I AGREED with you that Attlee speeded up the decision for independence.

I said it was MORPETH'S VIEW that it should not have happened until 25 years later.

Certainly a few months were needed to draw a proper border line and prepare.
Stating that you had yet again morphed into a world of fact denial and fantasy is not abuse , it's a fact...
Eg In the 3000 or so photos we took could not find one of a tank on a street corner, a comment I never made. .
But is you so I should not be surprised with what you come up with.
Atlee was not solely responsible, the history books record a large number of Indian politicians and leaders involved in the process.
Which of them asked for Independence to be delayed.
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 3:49 pm
  #145  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
Stating that you had yet again morphed into a world of fact denial and fantasy is not abuse , it's a fact...
Eg In the 3000 or so photos we took could not find one of a tank on a street corner, a comment I never made. .
But is you so I should not be surprised with what you come up with.
Atlee was not solely responsible, the history books record a large number of Indian politicians and leaders involved in the process.
Which of them asked for Independence to be delayed.
EMR-----!!!!!
Your post 134-----YOUR WORDS "Anyone visiting India will see a government office and military base on almost every street corner".

I queried this bizarre statement and asked if you meant police .

Your reply post 136----"not unless they (police) have tanks"

Suggest you read your own posts.

Attlee asked Mountbatten to expedite the process of independence. Radcliffe who knew nothing of the area just made a line across the map for a border!
This is not disputed EMR.

Yes obviously many were involved in the process of independence for before it came to this.
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 4:01 pm
  #146  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR-----!!!!!
Your post 134-----YOUR WORDS "Anyone visiting India will see a government office and military base on almost every street corner".

I queried this bizarre statement and asked if you meant police .

Your reply post 136----"not unless they (police) have tanks"

Suggest you read your own posts.

Attlee asked Mountbatten to expedite the process of independence. Radcliffe who knew nothing of the area just made a line across the map for a border!
This is not disputed EMR.

Yes obviously many were involved in the process of independence for before it came to this.
I suggest you learn to comprehend.
Given that you seem to take very remark , every article, every comment from myth literally its is no wonder you have a problem with facts and reality.
Where is there anything to support your accusations, nothing nada, SEA.
We dis see the armed escorts for those children attending military schools, armed security staff at every site popular with tourists.
No doubt you will fantasies me saying that India is an armed camp with the army controlling the actions of the populace..
You really are not very Good at debating, here is a hint start with a few facts not fantasies..

I will ask again where were the protests from the Indians and others from the Sub continent in the negotiations asking for Independence to be delayed do as not to cause the disruption that cost so many lives.
Where was it and who said it.,
The leaders of the sub continent are just a guilty as Mountbatten and Atlee.




Last edited by EMR; Feb 13th 2019 at 4:04 pm.
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 4:20 pm
  #147  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
I suggest you learn to comprehend.
Given that you seem to take very remark , every article, every comment from myth literally its is no wonder you have a problem with facts and reality.
Where is there anything to support your accusations, nothing nada, SEA.
We dis see the armed escorts for those children attending military schools, armed security staff at every site popular with tourists.
No doubt you will fantasies me saying that India is an armed camp with the army controlling the actions of the populace..
You really are not very Good at debating, here is a hint start with a few facts not fantasies..

I will ask again where were the protests from the Indians and others from the Sub continent in the negotiations asking for Independence to be delayed do as not to cause the disruption
that cost so many lives.
Where was it and who said it.,
The leaders of the sub continent are just a guilty as Mountbatten and Atlee.

EMR------ Read or get someone to read for you----- your own posts----Posts 134 and posts 136

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Old Feb 13th 2019, 4:49 pm
  #148  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR------ Read or get someone to read for you----- your own posts----Posts 134 and posts 136
I give up, you really do live in la la land..
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 7:27 pm
  #149  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
Once again you chose to ignore facts.
Indians were not called Indians until outsiders arrived. , it is a convenient shorthand, nothing more,.
The inhabitants of the UK are also known by a convenient shorthand British, but we are Welsh, Scottish, Irish etc.
No Great Britain existed when these 3 different countries existed as independent areas.
Just as India was a collection of 100s of different kingdoms, territories , different races, religions etc who all called themselves by their preferred definition, not Indian..
Sir

I see what you are getting at, but nationality on modern lines is not an ancient thing. The British were not, and are not, a nation but a group of peoples. We did not have a system of passports until relatively recently, forget citizenship and nationality. So was the case with esp. Germany. With Germany until 1871. There was an idea of a German people, variously defined by others, but they were all divided into hundreds of principalities.

That the Deutsch people lived in all these little principalities did not, in my view, make them any less German. Austrian nationality too, was problematic because Austrians are a German people. There would not have a German unification or an Anschluss unless there had been a notion of a German nation at some historic point. Same is the case with India. While for the Germans, the link was language, for Indians it was culture.

I suppose you mean when you say Indians did not refer to themselves as “Indians”. As a description, “India” is a foreign appellation. There was a clear conception in common culture of “we, the people of India/Bharat” or “Bharat Khand” the Indian realm, way before it found political expression by way of the nationalist movement. There were rarely any conflict at all between culturally native people of the country during the Christian Era. The fights were between culturally native Indian states and alien states in India such as those of the Turks. This is the milieu in which the English found themselves when they arrived in India. Their state was built in large part on the apparatus laid by the Mughals because of which they, and the versions of history they fancy, call Mughals “Indian”. They were Uzbek.

It is a common thing to hear the British of today to swear “we made India” but this assertion has very low credibility. It has all the grace of a ship about to sink. It is true that the British loved India; they had created several institutions which have contributed to a general resurgence in Indian self-confidence. A lot of the work was done by other European and Indian researchers also, but under British auspices. These institutions are in turn loved by Indians, who have taken care not to destroy all of them. It is premature to misinterpret this love as a sign of some sort of obligation to the British; why reinvent the wheel? I admit Indians pander somewhat to the British assertion by celebrating their voluntary departure every 15th of August but this really exposes nationalism for the resentful force it is. India was not born out of resentment.

And even within India today, it would be weird if people called themselves “Indian”; it is understood that they are. It’s like a fish calling itself fish to everyone it met; what’s the point? It runs somewhat parallel to the current day crusade of the SJWs to call them by their preferred pronoun. What? You are what you look like. So it is for the Indian people.
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Old Feb 13th 2019, 7:38 pm
  #150  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
As you will know anyone visiting India will see a government office and military base on almost every street corner.
The name plates, sign boards are clear for all to see...
The huge military complexes in Rajahstan proudly had the title Indian, did not see Bharat once.
Is it the Indian air force or the Bharat air force , what is the term they use to refer to themselves.. .

As an aside, our guide mentioned that his nephews now use a venacular in conversation with an increasing number of English words.
Their grandparents complained that they can no longer understand them.
I just wonder how often the word Bharat is now used by the growing number of young people , is it just a hangover from the past., used by Hindu nationalists and academics...
,
Sir

That’s an easy one. “Indian” in English and “Bharatiya” in native languages. You’d know if you could read the Indian script. In native languages, Indian Army is Bharatiya Thalsena, Navy Bharatiya Nausena, Air Force Bharatiya Vayu Sena, so on and so forth for all agencies.

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