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Bipat Aug 18th 2020 10:30 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12898352)
Quote untrue Bipat, I have often made very positive comments about India's progress. As far as'untrue' comments I basically respond to.comments, and often provide the sources and reasons for the comments- you then generally ignore evidence and then write my comments untrue. And if you consider our past communications I am quite willing to acknowledge when I have misunderstood an issue, and have done so.

You present a Hindu Nationalist version of India and then get annoyed when someone brings up reality or evidence, and often you do not respond directly to issues at hand, or when you get stuck completely on incorrect claims you make, you then resort to stating or implying people are racist of 'anti-Indian'.

I wonder if you actually read the posts or instantly understand them through the prism of Indian nationalism.Has anyone denied there there may be some commercial value from India's space program ?

I have no for or against position about India, just as a major country it certainly is of interest I am against nonsense or unsupported portrayals at variance with reality. I l also have learned from your comments about current evens in India that I otherwise might not have learned.

There you go again--- 'Indian nationalism'---- at least you no longer call it Hindu nationalism:lol:. What other country should India do its best for????
If there is commercial value what is your problem?? Of course you have to use the word-- "some":lol:
How do you know the "reality" if you don't live there or travel extensively there?? Do you read daily newspapers and watch daily TV (and if you do --why??)



scrubbedexpat142 Aug 18th 2020 11:41 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898362)
How do you know the "reality" if you don't live there or travel extensively there?? Do you read daily newspapers and watch daily TV (and if you do --why??)

There you go, the root of the problem. Pre Internet you would have got away, unchallenged, with your assertions. Now, however, we in the west have access to substantial amounts of information and informed opinion, largely from local sources. What is intriguing (& intellectualy dishonest) is that you insist that only those resident in a Country (part time in your case) and with copious numbers of local relatives can comment (on India) - then persist on commenting on European Countries, with whom you have no physical connection or direct experience, gleaning your little gems from the press, without the substantiation or intellectual integrity & rigour you demand of others. And, of course, if all else fails you then scream "prejudice".

Bipat Aug 18th 2020 12:12 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12898379)
1) There you go, the root of the problem. Pre Internet you would have got away, unchallenged, with your assertions. Now, however, we in the west have access to substantial amounts of information and informed opinion, largely from local sources. 2) What is intriguing (& intellectualy dishonest) is that you insist that only those resident in a Country (part time in your case) and with copious numbers of local relatives can comment (on India) - 3) then persist on commenting on European Countries, with whom you have no physical connection or direct experience, gleaning your little gems from the press, without the substantiation or intellectual integrity & rigour you demand of others. And, of course, if all else fails you then scream "prejudice".

1) Do you know which are the respected independent newspapers in India and which are financed by opposition party?
Did you know that Shashi Tharoor (even Morpeth has bad remarks about him) was employed to report by British Guardian newspaper? Which TV stations do you watch? Do you know who finances NDTV?
I put internet links for you to read. In fact the one above regarding Space program was BBC---thought that would be satisfactory for you.

2) I do have multiple contacts that are not relatives!! The people I have known over 50 years living in most States!

3) In the appropriate threads on TIO, I comment on EU countries, I have asked you for comments about what I read, you have never replied.
What is your opinion on the Polish recent presidential election ? On the demonstrations about homophobia of the present Government? What about the EU/EPP antagonism to Hungarian Government? I would be interested in your opinion.
I have not joined in the discussions on Europe apart from on TIO----Why are you commenting on this part of the Forum? What is your special interest (prejudice)?

I have repeatedly told Morpeth that I could write pages of what is 'wrong' with India. You both just argue about the wrong things.




scrubbedexpat142 Aug 18th 2020 12:38 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898388)
1)

3) In the appropriate threads on TIO, I comment on EU countries, I have asked you for comments about what I read, you have never replied.
What is your opinion on the Polish recent presidential election ? On the demonstrations about homophobia of the present Government? What about the EU/EPP antagonism to Hungarian Government? I would be interested in your opinion.
I have not joined in the discussions on Europe apart from on TIO----Why are you commenting on this part of the Forum? What is your special interest (prejudice)?

There you go again, another set of irrelevances
​​​​
I don't reply to you, because, under your rules, the Countries you mention are of no relevance to you and lie outwith your terms of engagement. Why do you insist on commenting on Poland & Hungary - prejudice?

As regards this thread I wasn't aware I needed your permission to participate. Having said that I didn't realise it was placed in the India forum but was seduced by the thread title.

As for prejudice you need to examine carefully your practices & motivations - before accusing others.

Anyway, I am out as a rational discussion with you is impossible!

Bipat Aug 18th 2020 1:04 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12898408)
1)There you go again, another set of irrelevances
​​​​
2) I don't reply to you, because, under your rules, the Countries you mention are of no relevance to you and lie outwith your terms of engagement. Why do you insist on commenting on Poland & Hungary - prejudice?

3) As regards this thread I wasn't aware I needed your permission to participate. Having said that I didn't realise it was placed in the India forum but was seduced by the thread title.

4) As for prejudice you need to examine carefully your practices & motivations - before accusing others.

5) Anyway, I am out as a rational discussion with you is impossible!



1) Irrelevant? Answering your post!

2) Is India within your relevance? Why do you insist on posting about it?
I comment on Poland because in the UK I have Polish origin neighbours, I have had over the years multiple Polish patients that I knew very closely their lives. My daughter in law's best friend is Polish origin.
Hungary---as an early teenager became interested in the Hungarian revolution as living in Portsmouth at the time there were many refugees there and I met many (mostly young men--we met on trains when we went on school hockey matches!!) However their explanations of the situation could not fail to make an impression for life.

3) The thread title is Inglorious Empire. I have not seen you comment on that?

4) What practices and motivations are you referring to?

5) You don't 'discuss' just post something negative!




morpeth Aug 19th 2020 11:39 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898359)
1) Yes I do know. Why did AstraZeneca choose an Indian company for major production you might ask. As I said you are out of date along with four Indian companies, there was EU worry about Italy. As I have said before there are illegal backstreet pharmacies.

2) Commercial value? Other countries pay to have their satellites sent up by Indian rockets. How is that punishing the poor?

3) SOME measures?? The lower income 50% of population free health care in private hospitals! USA and UK would appreciate that!!! Basic foods and gas at practically nil cost. Deposit free bank accounts enabling loans for those such as rickshaw drivers to buy new vehicles. People travel, have good clothes. Could write a page about it.

Here we go again! My window, my family and you say you are not prejudiced!!
I read daily newspapers, see TV, have contacts with hundreds of people in different States, travel north to south, seen the great increase in difference over the last few years of my 50 years of travelling there. ----What do you do?----Just a few distant friends and sort out reports that suit your agenda and post your usual negativity (a polite way of describing it!)

Again you ignore the response by pivoting away as usual

1. Drug Production: You repeat that there are companies producing drugs in India.No one denies that-doesn't mean much, China has all sorts of production but a consistent issue with safety and quality. .Nor did I deny that I haven't seen recent articles on the subject. However why not respond directly to the posts (a) is there any credible evidence or reviews showing the situation has improved so it is no longer a concern ? Maybe there is but if you had actually evidence for a contrary view I assume you would have posted rather than just Nationalist feeling (b) you haven't responded why one would assume Indian pharma companies and related government inspectors are immune to the high levels of corruption in India ?

2.The Space program requires a huge and ongoing capital investment, it just seems terribly immoral in such a poor country with tens and tens of millions of people in desperate poverty to engage in prestige projects. India of course not alone in chasing prestige projects, but like many third world countries the elite and nationalist justify such idiotic projects.

3. Bipat, no has denied the measures you refer to- but simply by any measure India has a tremendous numerical and percentage of population in extreme poverty, and by some social measures below countries in Africa, Indonesia and the Philippines. Hence simply the waste of money on a Space Program ( just one example) hardly seems justifiable except for those with little empathy for the poor or excessive nationalism.

4. Bipat, as you well know it isn't just me throwing out a few newspapers reports or basing the opinion on India's dire poverty on a few contacts- I earlier provided extensive and wide-ranging data on the subject from Indian and foreign sources of all types, companies, governments, universities and NGO's.as you will recall your only counter-evidence to support the rosy picture you try to portray to others was (a) looking out your window (b) what your family says.I even provided an analysis how the Indian government sets what is the poverty level close to what several African countries use as poverty levels. It isn't a question of being positive or negative, just what the evidence shows. If your love for your adopted country is such that evidence or logic doesn't matter I am unsure why you discuss the various subjects. I fully understand your desire to integrate in your Indian home.

morpeth Aug 19th 2020 11:49 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898362)
There you go again--- 'Indian nationalism'---- at least you no longer call it Hindu nationalism:lol:. What other country should India do its best for????
If there is commercial value what is your problem?? Of course you have to use the word-- "some":lol:
How do you know the "reality" if you don't live there or travel extensively there?? Do you read daily newspapers and watch daily TV (and if you do --why??)

I am unsure if daily television shows and newspapers more substantive than the experts who have serious studied the various issues- and this applies not only to India. Does that mean no specialist on the Indian economy or history have a valid opinion unless they live there and review the Indian newspaper daily ? Absurd. Perhaps you should start a thread stating only people who live in India and ignore serious evidence should post.

That there some commercial value is not the same as saying the huge and ongoing capital investment is not appropriate for a third world country. What are the commercial profit vs the cumulative investment for example would be more relevant than simply some commercial revenue.

The issue clearly was not India not pursuing its own interests, but because of nationalism pursuing prestige projects at the expense of the alternative path of focusing on the poor.Nothing complicated just different policy options- one favors the poor, one favors the emotions of nationalists, often described by the media as Hindu nationalism.

morpeth Aug 19th 2020 11:59 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898359)
1) Yes I do know. Why did AstraZeneca choose an Indian company for major production you might ask. As I said you are out of date along with four Indian companies, there was EU worry about Italy. As I have said before there are illegal backstreet pharmacies.

2) Commercial value? Other countries pay to have their satellites sent up by Indian rockets. How is that punishing the poor?

3) SOME measures?? The lower income 50% of population free health care in private hospitals! USA and UK would appreciate that!!! Basic foods and gas at practically nil cost. Deposit free bank accounts enabling loans for those such as rickshaw drivers to buy new vehicles. People travel, have good clothes. Could write a page about it.

Here we go again! My window, my family and you say you are not prejudiced!!
I read daily newspapers, see TV, have contacts with hundreds of people in different States, travel north to south, seen the great increase in difference over the last few years of my 50 years of travelling there. ----What do you do?----Just a few distant friends and sort out reports that suit your agenda and post your usual negativity (a polite way of describing it!)

You may wish to read the posts a bit more carefully. No one denies there hasn't been progress in India, especially the last 10 years.

I have no agenda except to learn. What agenda could I have ?

And for intelligent discussion instead of trying to always accuse people of prejudice, why not simply read what people post, then comment based on what the evidence shows ? If I were to criticize China's treatment of minorities does that make me prejudiced against China ? If I point out that even after economic growth Indonesia continues to have serious poverty issues does that make me anti-Indonesian ?If I point out how backward America is among the advanced countries in terms of affordability or availability of medical care does that make me anti-American ?

Bipat Aug 19th 2020 12:25 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12898923)
Again you ignore the response by pivoting away as usual

1. Drug Production: You repeat that there are companies producing drugs in India.No one denies that-doesn't mean much, China has all sorts of production but a consistent issue with safety and quality. .Nor did I deny that I haven't seen recent articles on the subject. However why not respond directly to the posts (a) is there any credible evidence or reviews showing the situation has improved so it is no longer a concern ? Maybe there is but if you had actually evidence for a contrary view I assume you would have posted rather than just Nationalist feeling (b) you haven't responded why one would assume Indian pharma companies and related government inspectors are immune to the high levels of corruption in India ?

2.The Space program requires a huge and ongoing capital investment, it just seems terribly immoral in such a poor country with tens and tens of millions of people in desperate poverty to engage in prestige projects. India of course not alone in chasing prestige projects, but like many third world countries the elite and nationalist justify such idiotic projects.

3. Bipat, no has denied the measures you refer to- but simply by any measure India has a tremendous numerical and percentage of population in extreme poverty, and by some social measures below countries in Africa, Indonesia and the Philippines. Hence simply the waste of money on a Space Program ( just one example) hardly seems justifiable except for those with little empathy for the poor or excessive nationalism.

4. Bipat, as you well know it isn't just me throwing out a few newspapers reports or basing the opinion on India's dire poverty on a few contacts- I earlier provided extensive and wide-ranging data on the subject from Indian and foreign sources of all types, companies, governments, universities and NGO's.as you will recall your only counter-evidence to support the rosy picture you try to portray to others was (a) looking out your window (b) what your family says.I even provided an analysis how the Indian government sets what is the poverty level close to what several African countries use as poverty levels. It isn't a question of being positive or negative, just what the evidence shows. If your love for your adopted country is such that evidence or logic doesn't matter I am unsure why you discuss the various subjects. I fully understand your desire to integrate in your Indian home.


1) The corruption rife in previous Congress governments was a primary concern of present Government and it is being dealt with.
I pointed out to you that AstraZeneca chose an Indian company as one of the first to produce the Oxford vaccine.
Why would there be reports as to how reliable a entire countries drug production was? There would only be reports of the opposite.
As I told you the four rogue companies were dealt with years ago.

2) Do you read posts? Do you read links?
I pointed out to you the space programme was started decades ago. To stop it NOW wasting past work, ending the careers of scientists.
Breaking contracts with the UK etc. (who don't find it idiotic)! Leaving commercial projects.
Do you know anything about the security requirements of India? Which space program helps.

3) Yet again you produce your dubious statistics (if you search you will find some statistic to prove anything!)
Why do you think India gives aid to African countries? Why is the Serum Institute donating half of its Covid vaccine production to poorer countries?

4) Yes there is still much poverty in the rural villages and large cities----you refuse to comment on the health program and virtually free basic food and subsidised gas.
Yes there is much to be done, your knowledge is just 'paper' statistics, often as I have explained, gathered in dubious or inaccurate way.

(Yes this also happens with positive statistics ---such as the including street vendors in the middle class list that I read.)

Do you read Indian daily newspapers? Watch daily TV? Visit villages? Travel on Indian buses/trains? Have poor people in your kitchen laughing about the new toilets built in the market to give the statistic gatherers something to write about?

Morpeth I have not "adopted" India---I do not have to "integrate"----will you please stop using these words.

I just have homes and family in two countries. Just as many in the UK have homes and family in the UK/Europe/ rest of world. As you post on This Forum I presume you have.

PS Just read your further posts.----
I have repeatedly said that I could write pages about what is 'wrong' in India.
You just go on and on about the same things derived from your distant view of who is an "expert" without any thought that multiple opposing views might be worth listening to.




morpeth Aug 19th 2020 7:24 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898939)
1) The corruption rife in previous Congress governments was a primary concern of present Government and it is being dealt with.


2) Do you read posts? Do you read links?
I pointed out to you the space programme was started decades ago. To stop it NOW wasting past work, ending the careers of scientists.
Breaking contracts with the UK etc. (who don't find it idiotic)! Leaving commercial projects.
Do you know anything about the security requirements of India? Which space program helps.

3) Yet again you produce your dubious statistics (if you search you will find some statistic to prove anything!)
Why do you think India gives aid to African countries? Why is the Serum Institute donating half of its Covid vaccine production to poorer countries?

4) Yes there is still much poverty in the rural villages and large cities----you refuse to comment on the health program and virtually free basic food and subsidised gas.
Yes there is much to be done, your knowledge is just 'paper' statistics, often as I have explained, gathered in dubious or inaccurate way.

(Yes this also happens with positive statistics ---such as the including street vendors in the middle class list that I read.)

Do you read Indian daily newspapers? Watch daily TV? Visit villages? Travel on Indian buses/trains? Have poor people in your kitchen laughing about the new toilets built in the market to give the statistic gatherers something to write about?

Morpeth I have not "adopted" India---I do not have to "integrate"----will you please stop using these words.

I just have homes and family in two countries. Just as many in the UK have homes and family in the UK/Europe/ rest of world. As you post on This Forum I presume you have.

PS Just read your further posts.----
I have repeatedly said that I could write pages about what is 'wrong' in India.
You just go on and on about the same things derived from your distant view of who is an "expert" without any thought that multiple opposing views might be worth listening to.

1) Drug Production Safety: You produce nothing to prove or disprove the matter either way. I am honest enough to state I have not read recent news reports on the issue, it appears neither have you. It is indeed laughable to say India’s corruption has dramatically changed in a few short years and every survey would indicate as with other third world nations still a major problem. It is not unreasonable to ask, again, how in such a corrupt country are we to believe such corruption does not affect the Indian pharma companies?

2) You have shown nowhere why the funds invested in the Space program have been recovered, nor explained why in a country as poor as India it should be spending anything on such prestige projects. As far as agreements with other countries, if India wishes to spend its money or provide cheaper services, why wouldn’t the Uk take advantage of that especially as the UK has such a negative economic relationship with India in the first place. And while there may be some or even many capable Indian space scientists, India has no universities as far as I know in top world rankings, so I assume UK’s contracts with India just based on lower costs.
3) So according to you all international organizations, domestic and foreign companies, universities, NGO’s all put out ‘dubious’ statistics but looking out your window, reading daily press and speaking with your family you have knowledge that contradicts every serious analysis that is out there ?

4) I don’t ‘refuse to comment on issues that are not germane to point being made, that isn’t refusing. In fact several times I have indicated such programs you refer to are beneficial.

5.) I am just being polite that the only reason I can find for your constantly ignoring evidence is that it derives from an intention to integrate in your new country. You chose it so I assume adopted was not an inappropriate word. However if the word adopted country somehow offends you I will try to just say your new or chosen country. Of course Modi's government will try to put a positive spin on things, but that doesn't change the very simple fact India is a poor country with no business with a space program.

6) Actually in past discussions where I presented a lot of evidence from people who unlike you or I have studied extensively, not always with the same views but consensus on the basics, you consistently were unable to produce information or sources except endless repeat the views of your family and yourself take precedence over any Indian or Foreign experts.

Bipat Aug 19th 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12899133)
1) Drug Production Safety: You produce nothing to prove or disprove the matter either way. I am honest enough to state I have not read recent news reports on the issue, it appears neither have you. It is indeed laughable to say India’s corruption has dramatically changed in a few short years and every survey would indicate as with other third world nations still a major problem. It is not unreasonable to ask, again, how in such a corrupt country are we to believe such corruption does not affect the Indian pharma companies?

2) You have shown nowhere why the funds invested in the Space program have been recovered, nor explained why in a country as poor as India it should be spending anything on such prestige projects. As far as agreements with other countries, if India wishes to spend its money or provide cheaper services, why wouldn’t the Uk take advantage of that especially as the UK has such a negative economic relationship with India in the first place. And while there may be some or even many capable Indian space scientists, India has no universities as far as I know in top world rankings, so I assume UK’s contracts with India just based on lower costs.
3) So according to you all international organizations, domestic and foreign companies, universities, NGO’s all put out ‘dubious’ statistics but looking out your window, reading daily press and speaking with your family you have knowledge that contradicts every serious analysis that is out there ?

4) I don’t ‘refuse to comment on issues that are not germane to point being made, that isn’t refusing. In fact several times I have indicated such programs you refer to are beneficial.

5.) I am just being polite that the only reason I can find for your constantly ignoring evidence is that it derives from an intention to integrate in your new country. You chose it so I assume adopted was not an inappropriate word. However if the word adopted country somehow offends you I will try to just say your new or chosen country. Of course Modi's government will try to put a positive spin on things, but that doesn't change the very simple fact India is a poor country with no business with a space program.

6) Actually in past discussions where I presented a lot of evidence from people who unlike you or I have studied extensively, not always with the same views but consensus on the basics, you consistently were unable to produce information or sources except endless repeat the views of your family and yourself take precedence over any Indian or Foreign experts.


1) I asked you why AstraZeneca had chosen an Indian Company to produce its vaccine---no answer.
What evidence do YOU have that it is such a "corrupt country at high level.
Are you able to understand English Morpeth? I have told you that Modi did not start the space program.

2) You have shown no evidence that funds are not being recovered.

"There might be capable Indian space scientists" Oh! how very kind of you to say so!
(Why do other countries USA, UK etc. accept Indian students for Post Graduate studies without question!)

3) Statistics vary with the people who collect them you believe what you want to believe.
Just think how many different statistics are being published regarding Brexit negotiations and about Pandemic cases!
How many times are you going to mention MY window MY relatives----at least the latter include university and military personnel.
Most of us, you will be surprised to know, can actually read and write.

4) So when discussing the poor of India, free private medical care and cheap food and gas, deposit free bank accounts are not germane to the point??
The poor I know seem to find these things important!

5) I didn't "choose" India. I married an Indian national who happened to be in the UK when we met. No he wasn't an immigrant he was there to do post graduate exam end persuaded to do a much needed UK job! You might be surprised ---he also could read and write.

So your idea is when a country has many poor (as the UK for example) no one should have ambition to rise above this?
In the UK children go hungry, are you saying we shouldn't care about the recent exam debacle and those that aim high?

6) 50 years of experience and hundreds of contacts in all walks of life at least give me an idea about a place where I have a home and the ability to interpret reasonable "statistics".



morpeth Aug 20th 2020 11:17 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12899159)
1) I asked you why AstraZeneca had chosen an Indian Company to produce its vaccine---no answer.
What evidence do YOU have that it is such a "corrupt country at high level.
Are you able to understand English Morpeth? I have told you that Modi did not start the space program.

2) You have shown no evidence that funds are not being recovered.

"There might be capable Indian space scientists" Oh! how very kind of you to say so!
(Why do other countries USA, UK etc. accept Indian students for Post Graduate studies without question!)

3) Statistics vary with the people who collect them you believe what you want to believe.
Just think how many different statistics are being published regarding Brexit negotiations and about Pandemic cases!
How many times are you going to mention MY window MY relatives----at least the latter include university and military personnel.
Most of us, you will be surprised to know, can actually read and write.

4) So when discussing the poor of India, free private medical care and cheap food and gas, deposit free bank accounts are not germane to the point??
The poor I know seem to find these things important!

5) I didn't "choose" India. I married an Indian national who happened to be in the UK when we met. No he wasn't an immigrant he was there to do post graduate exam end persuaded to do a much needed UK job! You might be surprised ---he also could read and write.

So your idea is when a country has many poor (as the UK for example) no one should have ambition to rise above this?
In the UK children go hungry, are you saying we shouldn't care about the recent exam debacle and those that aim high?

6) 50 years of experience and hundreds of contacts in all walks of life at least give me an idea about a place where I have a home and the ability to interpret reasonable "statistics".

This is incredible! You give six answers completing avoiding the issues being discussed .

“I asked you why AstraZeneca had chosen an Indian Company to produce its vaccine---no answer.



I clearly pointed by giving the example than many companies produce in China regardless of its reputation for quality and safety issues, Further I stated I hadn’t read anything recently on the situation in India on the subject in recent years, but apparently neither have you.


“What evidence do YOU have that it is such a "corrupt country at high level.”



Every single survey of corruption level in world countries for years has confirmed this, and previously I have provided links to these, India has by all accounts third-world levels of corruption.


“Are you able to understand English Morpeth? I have told you that Modi did not start the space program.”



It isn’t a question of understanding English but of relevance- simple my point is India is in no position to be spending money on prestige projects whoever started them.

“ You have shown no evidence that funds are not being recovered.”




True but you are the one trying to give the impression it is- rarely does any government space program anywhere recover the investment in such programs. Should be easy for you to find out cumulative expenditures for the Indian space programs vs revenue. I think you know it has not recovered all the funds it has required.

“Why do other countries USA, UK etc. accept Indian students for Post Graduate studies without question!”



For the same reason they accept students from other third world countries.

“ Statistics vary with the people who collect them you believe what you want to believe.”




You rejected ALL statistics from ALL experts both Indian and Foreign- with the only reason you yourself gave is )a) what you see out your window (your words) and what your family tells you (your words).




“So, your idea is when a country has many poor (as the UK for example) no one should have ambition to rise above this?”



There is not one word in my comments even remotely referring to someone not having ambition. And there is no comparison of the depth and breadth of poverty in a third world country like India and a first world country like the UK.







“the ability to interpret reasonable "statistics". In all prior discussions when evidence available that contradicts the impression you seek to convey about India you simply reject statistics do not interpret them.



Bipat Aug 20th 2020 12:30 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12899384)
This is incredible! You give six answers completing avoiding the issues being discussed .

1)
I clearly pointed by giving the example than many companies produce in China regardless of its reputation for quality and safety issues, Further I stated I hadn’t read anything recently on the situation in India on the subject in recent years, but apparently neither have you.


2) Every single survey of corruption level in world countries for years has confirmed this, and previously I have provided links to these, India has by all accounts third-world levels of corruption.


3) It isn’t a question of understanding English but of relevance- simple my point is India is in no position to be spending money on prestige projects whoever started them.

true but you are the one trying to give the impression it is- rarely does any government space program anywhere recover the investment in such programs. Should be easy for you to find out cumulative expenditures for the Indian space programs vs revenue. I think you know it has not recovered all the funds it has required.

4) “Why do other countries USA, UK etc. accept Indian students for Post Graduate studies without question!”

For the same reason they accept students from other third world countries.

5) “

You rejected ALL statistics from ALL experts both Indian and Foreign- with the only reason you yourself gave is )a) what you see out your window (your words) and what your family tells you (your words).

6)There is not one word in my comments even remotely referring to someone not having ambition. And there is no comparison of the depth and breadth of poverty in a third world country like India and a first world country like the UK.


7) “the ability to interpret reasonable "statistics". In all prior discussions when evidence available that contradicts the impression you seek to convey about India you simply reject statistics do not interpret them.


Morpeth on August 15th I put a post pointing out that it was the 74th Independence day of India.
That post has been followed by an outpouring of 'bile' by yourself both general and personal.

1) I pointed out to you that there are generally not publications/saying how wonderful are countries drug production companies, it is only negativity that is reported.
You ignore that I told you about AstraZeneca's choice of India as its first site of production.
You still do not comment on what is an important matter and their recent findings regarding dose level.

2) I have explained to you that corruption was rife in the previous dynastic political Congress party. You refuse to believe that changes take place and that your statistics are out of date. Certainly at the very low level there is corruption---do your famous statistics take into account different areas of activity?

3) I put links for you.

4) You are saying that countries don't take into account the value of undergrad. qualifications?

5) If I ever mentioned those words you provide them each time you post. I have pointed out to you the breadth of my contacts, Do you expect names? (At least I can say you don't see India in reality outside of any of your windows.).

6) No you are correct- no comparison with a billion+ population.
You ignore the poverty of British children.

You ignore what I told you about basic food prices for low income Indian people. Free health treatment in private hospitals.
Another out of the window comparison----there are no homeless in my Indian town, there are many sleeping in doorways in my British town. (Same population size).

Yes I obviously agree that the large population of village people in India, and the seeking work in cities leads to gross poverty and hunger.
Unemployment in India is a problem----so you want all those in the space industry to be put out of work!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hild-poverty-uk-children-hunger-hungry-meals-low-income-families-benefits-a8848041.html

7) Morpeth you seek out statistics that will support your own negative views. It is always possible to find opposing statistics it depends how they are collected, who collects them etc.

morpeth Aug 20th 2020 1:51 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12899407)
Morpeth on August 15th I put a post pointing out that it was the 74th Independence day of India.
That post has been followed by an outpouring of 'bile' by yourself both general and personal.

1) I pointed out to you that there are generally not publications/saying how wonderful are countries drug production companies, it is only negativity that is reported.
You ignore that I told you about AstraZeneca's choice of India as its first site of production.
You still do not comment on what is an important matter and their recent findings regarding dose level.

2) I have explained to you that corruption was rife in the previous dynastic political Congress party. You refuse to believe that changes take place and that your statistics are out of date. Certainly at the very low level there is corruption---do your famous statistics take into account different areas of activity?

3) I put links for you.

4) You are saying that countries don't take into account the value of undergrad. qualifications?

5) If I ever mentioned those words you provide them each time you post. I have pointed out to you the breadth of my contacts, Do you expect names? (At least I can say you don't see India in reality outside of any of your windows.).

6) No you are correct- no comparison with a billion+ population.
You ignore the poverty of British children.

You ignore what I told you about basic food prices for low income Indian people. Free health treatment in private hospitals.
Another out of the window comparison----there are no homeless in my Indian town, there are many sleeping in doorways in my British town. (Same population size).

Yes I obviously agree that the large population of village people in India, and the seeking work in cities leads to gross poverty and hunger.
Unemployment in India is a problem----so you want all those in the space industry to be put out of work!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hild-poverty-uk-children-hunger-hungry-meals-low-income-families-benefits-a8848041.html

7) Morpeth you seek out statistics that will support your own negative views. It is always possible to find opposing statistics it depends how they are collected, who collects them etc.

“That post has been followed by an outpouring of 'bile' by yourself both general and personal.”- I made a minor point about speech referring to import strategy, and then just responded to your usual Modi propaganda, that is not bile. You bring up as evidence repeatedly your supposed evidence is outside your window and family, no one else brought up personal issues.

1)” I pointed out to you that there are generally not publications/saying how wonderful are countries drug production companies,” I ignore irrelevant comments.


2)” I have explained to you that corruption was rife in the previous dynastic political Congress party….” So you honestly believe in 2 years the corruption culture of India has miraculously disappeared? Surely world businessmen and corruption watchdogs would have noticed this.


3) “I put links for you.” Nonrelevant.

4) “You are saying that countries don't take into account the value of undergraduate degrees?” I haven’t any idea how you dream up these things. I just pointed out the obvious, students from all over the third world go to fist world countries to study not just India; and that considering England has some of top universities in the world, and India none in the top rankings,

5) I have no idea your contacts except per your comments.

6) “No you are correct- no comparison with a billion+ population.
You ignore the poverty of British children.” You are perhaps the only person who would consider the depth and breadth of poverty as similar to what exists in the UK.I know other people who live in India Bipat I relayed your comments, that considered laughable.

7)” Morpeth you seek out statistics that will support your own negative views.” So interesting you never could produce any reputable or credible source offering contrary evidence.

Bipat Aug 20th 2020 2:52 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12899458)
“That post has been followed by an outpouring of 'bile' by yourself both general and personal.”- I made a minor point about speech referring to import strategy, and then just responded to your usual Modi propaganda, that is not bile. You bring up as evidence repeatedly your supposed evidence is outside your window and family, no one else brought up personal issues.

1)” I pointed out to you that there are generally not publications/saying how wonderful are countries drug production companies,” I ignore irrelevant comments.


2)” I have explained to you that corruption was rife in the previous dynastic political Congress party….” So you honestly believe in 2 years the corruption culture of India has miraculously disappeared? Surely world businessmen and corruption watchdogs would have noticed this.


3) “I put links for you.” Nonrelevant.

4) “You are saying that countries don't take into account the value of undergraduate degrees?” I haven’t any idea how you dream up these things. I just pointed out the obvious, students from all over the third world go to fist world countries to study not just India; and that considering England has some of top universities in the world, and India none in the top rankings,

5) I have no idea your contacts except per your comments.

6) “No you are correct- no comparison with a billion+ population.
You ignore the poverty of British children.” You are perhaps the only person who would consider the depth and breadth of poverty as similar to what exists in the UK.I know other people who live in India Bipat I relayed your comments, that considered laughable.

7)” Morpeth you seek out statistics that will support your own negative views.” So interesting you never could produce any reputable or credible source offering contrary evidence.


Morpeth as you sometimes do ---you have messed up your reply!

To try to repeat ---I pointed out the date and Independence day---you replied with a negative reply about trade ----I suggested you put your Brexit thoughts on another thread.
I did not mention Modi.

Personal issues ----no one else replying on this thread lives in India -----how would they have personal issues.

(You may have noticed that local Indian people who attempt posting on this Forum soon leave.
(In the previous Goa part of the Forum even a Concierge left because of insults.)

1) A country with a company chosen to be first to produce a major British vaccine in this pandemic is not relevant to discussion about drug companies?

2) I pointed out to you there is corruption at lower level ---day to day transactions.
Presume that you are not aware of Congress party corruption and dynasty politics.
Why should you be it is not your country.

5) No you haven't ---so why the continued 'window' and 'family' snide remarks.

6) Living in both countries gives a ability to see both sides. Unlike you.
Obviously a billion ++ population will have far more poverty than 27 million.

I did point out to you the unemployment, the large town poverty (which includes the slums). etc.

You didn't reply regarding the food, health and bank provisions for the poor. I imagine the people you know don't have these requirements! Those we know do!


morpeth Aug 21st 2020 7:45 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12899493)
Morpeth as you sometimes do ---you have messed up your reply!

To try to repeat ---I pointed out the date and Independence day---you replied with a negative reply about trade ----I suggested you put your Brexit thoughts on another thread.
I did not mention Modi.

Personal issues ----no one else replying on this thread lives in India -----how would they have personal issues.

(You may have noticed that local Indian people who attempt posting on this Forum soon leave.
(In the previous Goa part of the Forum even a Concierge left because of insults.)

1) A country with a company chosen to be first to produce a major British vaccine in this pandemic is not relevant to discussion about drug companies?

2) I pointed out to you there is corruption at lower level ---day to day transactions.
Presume that you are not aware of Congress party corruption and dynasty politics.
Why should you be it is not your country.

5) No you haven't ---so why the continued 'window' and 'family' snide remarks.

6) Living in both countries gives a ability to see both sides. Unlike you.
Obviously a billion ++ population will have far more poverty than 27 million.

I did point out to you the unemployment, the large town poverty (which includes the slums). etc.

You didn't reply regarding the food, health and bank provisions for the poor. I imagine the people you know don't have these requirements! Those we know do!

It is known that drugs are produced in India which proves nothing as to whether they are safely produced . There have been issues raised by the EU in the past. It is a well-known and substantiated the third-world level of corruption in India so it is a reasonable question whether this affects drug safety just a common-sense question.I specifically several time indicated I had not heard or read anything recently on the safety issue- thus can have no opinion on whether situation has improved or not. Asking the question is neither pro or anti Indian, Apparently you also have no updated information, but choose to have am opinion which appears based on the consistent partisan pro Modi Indian nationalist approach to considering issues. Neither of us apparently has any information to form an opinion, at least I can admit that.

It is a bit doubtful your objectivity in seeing both sides with your extreme partisanship and rejection of evidence.

It isn't snide to repeat what you have yourself, that experts can't be trusted, only what you see outside your window and what your Indian family tell you. And you apparently get offended when the rosy imaginary vision of India you portray of India is questioned. The depth and extent of poverty in India is well-known and supported by evidence,that the Modi regime has apparently improved the situation doesn't negate that any more that if the corruption situation has improved, that doesn't negate corruption still at third-world levels. That is supported by all surveys, and having been in international business for 30 years and in touch with both Indian and Foreign business people none have indicated some miracle has occurred the last five years. One contact, an Indian expert who I have worked closely with on a few projects, who is invited by universities and government in India and elsewhere to speak and consult with on such issues tells me that there has been some marginal improvement in recent years but the general level of corruption still at third-world levels and will take many years to get down to reasonable levels on a par with advanced countries. She did tell me her impression is that the Modi government has more officials who take the issue more seriously than the predecessors, and she supported the currency exchange moves Modi government made.



Bipat Aug 21st 2020 8:31 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth;128998191)
It is known that drugs are produced in India which proves nothing as to whether they are safely produced . There have been issues raised by the EU in the past. It is a well-known and substantiated the third-world level of corruption in India so it is a reasonable question whether this affects drug safety just a common-sense question.I specifically several time indicated I had not heard or read anything recently on the safety issue- thus can have no opinion on whether situation has improved or not. Asking the question is neither pro or anti Indian, Apparently you also have no updated information, but choose to have am opinion which appears based on the consistent partisan pro Modi Indian nationalist approach to considering issues. Neither of us apparently has any information to form an opinion, at least I can admit that.

It is a bit doubtful your objectivity in seeing both sides with your extreme partisanship and rejection of evidence.

2) It isn't snide to repeat what you have yourself, that experts can't be trusted, only what you see outside your window and what your Indian family tell you. And you apparently get offended when the rosy imaginary vision of India you portray of India is questioned. The depth and extent of poverty in India is well-known and supported by evidence,that the Modi regime has apparently improved the situation doesn't negate that any more that if the corruption situation has improved, that doesn't negate corruption still at third-world levels. That is supported by all surveys, and having been in international business for 30 years and in touch with both Indian and Foreign business people none have indicated some miracle has occurred the last five years. One contact, an Indian expert who I have worked closely with on a few projects, who is invited by universities and government in India and elsewhere to speak and consult with on such issues tells me that there has been some marginal improvement in recent years but the general level of corruption still at third-world levels and will take many years to get down to reasonable levels on a par with advanced countries. She did tell me her impression is that the Modi government has more officials who take the issue more seriously than the predecessors, and she supported the currency exchange moves Modi government made.


1) Morpeth ---you still don't comment on AstraZeneca!!!
As you said "In the past"---four companies which were dealt with -the EU pointed out the problems also with particularly Italy and other EU countries.
As members of the medical profession and with multiple contacts the workings of drug companies are known to us.

What do you mean by "pro-Modi" ---he is the PM. Would you prefer the dynastic Congress party? Have you any idea of the corruption associated with this party? (I have told you there is corruption at lower level ---it will take many more years to end this.)
Modi was voted in in a democracy is that being "nationalistic"?
I do not like the deputy Amit Shah --Modi is aging and obese---just hope that the next PM will be Nirmala Sitharaman (Of course with your encyclopaedic distant knowledge you in the past have criticised her!)

2) Morpeth "miracle" in five years you quote one person.
Regarding poverty you just stick to your out of date surveys.
You refuse to comment on the free health system ---where else in the world including UK can 50% of the population get free private health care?
(Certainly in remote villages with no private hospitals this doesn't help).
The deposit free bank accounts allow those such as rickshaw drivers to buy new vehicles----others get TVs --house repairs etc.
Basic food also almost free-for low income.

If you had lived there 50 years and travelled and had contacts in most States you would know the sharp difference in poverty in the last five years.
As I said unemployment is the great problem and those from villages who come to cities and get day work or no work and have no Aadhaar cards suffer.
Problems for farmers as in many countries continue for a variety of reasons that are too complex to discuss here.

(We don't need to look out of windows now Morpeth the majority of the population have smartphones and whatsapp each other continually.)








morpeth Aug 21st 2020 3:54 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12899826)
1) Morpeth ---you still don't comment on AstraZeneca!!!
As you said "In the past"---four companies which were dealt with -the EU pointed out the problems also with particularly Italy and other EU countries.
As members of the medical profession and with multiple contacts the workings of drug companies are known to us.

What do you mean by "pro-Modi" ---he is the PM. Would you prefer the dynastic Congress party? Have you any idea of the corruption associated with this party? (I have told you there is corruption at lower level ---it will take many more years to end this.)
Modi was voted in in a democracy is that being "nationalistic"?
I do not like the deputy Amit Shah --Modi is aging and obese---just hope that the next PM will be Nirmala Sitharaman (Of course with your encyclopaedic distant knowledge you in the past have criticised her!)

2) Morpeth "miracle" in five years you quote one person.
Regarding poverty you just stick to your out of date surveys.
You refuse to comment on the free health system ---where else in the world including UK can 50% of the population get free private health care?
(Certainly in remote villages with no private hospitals this doesn't help).
The deposit free bank accounts allow those such as rickshaw drivers to buy new vehicles----others get TVs --house repairs etc.
Basic food also almost free-for low income.

If you had lived there 50 years and travelled and had contacts in most States you would know the sharp difference in poverty in the last five years.
As I said unemployment is the great problem and those from villages who come to cities and get day work or no work and have no Aadhaar cards suffer.
Problems for farmers as in many countries continue for a variety of reasons that are too complex to discuss here.

(We don't need to look out of windows now Morpeth the majority of the population have smartphones and whatsapp each other continually.)

“Morpeth ---you still don't comment on AstraZeneca!!!

Because there was no reason to ,as I did explain several times.


“the EU pointed out the problems also with particularly Italy and other EU countries.”

Irrelevant to the question.


“What do you mean by "pro-Modi"

It is clear to anyone reading your posts tour extreme partisanship.

“he is the PM. Would you prefer the dynastic Congress party?”

Irrelevant to the question being discussed.

“it will take many more years to end this.”

Glad we agree.

“Modi was voted in in a democracy is that being "nationalistic"?

Irrelevant to the discussion.


“Regarding poverty you just stick to your out of date surveys.”

Your lack of consideration of evidence just leads to fantasy. In two years, India’s dire third world poverty levels have not disappeared.


“You refuse to comment on the free health system

Any evidence on whole subject of poverty in India you reject whether from Indian or foreign sources, so see no productive reason to go down the path of providing evidence when your only responses are )a) what you see outside your window (b) what your family tells you (c) people are racist if they disagree.


“If you had lived there 50 years and travelled and had contacts in most States you would know the sharp difference in poverty in the last five years.”

No one denies the economic progress India has made.


Bipat Aug 21st 2020 4:39 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12900065)
“Morpeth ---you still don't comment on AstraZeneca!!!

Because there was no reason to ,as I did explain several times.


1) “the EU pointed out the problems also with particularly Italy and other EU countries.”

Irrelevant to the question.


“What do you mean by "pro-Modi"

2) It is clear to anyone reading your posts tour extreme partisanship.

“he is the PM. Would you prefer the dynastic Congress party?”

3) Irrelevant to the question being discussed.


4) Glad we agree.

“Modi was voted in in a democracy is that being "nationalistic"?

5) Irrelevant to the discussion.


“Regarding poverty you just stick to your out of date surveys.”

5) Your lack of consideration of evidence just leads to fantasy. In two years, India’s dire third world poverty levels have not disappeared.


“You refuse to comment on the free health system

Any evidence on whole subject of poverty in India you reject whether from Indian or foreign sources, so see no productive reason to go down the path of providing evidence when your only responses are )a) what you see outside your window (b) what your family tells you (c) people are racist if they disagree.


“If you had lived there 50 years and travelled and had contacts in most States you would know the sharp difference in poverty in the last five years.”

6) No one denies the economic progress India has made.



Morpeth could you learn to quote previous posts in the usual way?

1) It is not irrelevant ---What you refer to is in the past and the four Indian drug companies were discussed at EU level together with those from other countries.

2/3) Is Modi the PM or not? How is supporting one political party over another being "partisan".
How is asking you if you support the opposition irrelevant?
How can a democratic vote be irrelevant?
Morpeth have you ANY idea about Indian politics?

4) We do not agree regarding corruption.
I said it continues at lower level -----I asked if you knew about previous corruption in Congress party ---no reply. Have you even heard of Robert Vadra---just one example.
I doubt if it has totally discontinued at top level---I doubt that in any country including UK.

At lower level I mean going to an office to get your gas card signed, getting a death certificate, getting a legal document translated----
but you wouldn't know about ordinary life would you --it is not described in your research of statistics!


5) I did not say poverty had disappeared I said it was far, far less over the last few years.

You refuse to comment on the innovations for health, food, bank loans, extra disaster cash pay outs because Morpeth you know nothing about ordinary life in present day India, than what you read while sitting in your armchair.

Can you not understand how important these changes are?

It is not "seen from any windows" ---- it is people in many States, many cities, actually knowing poor people ------not sitting in a chair searching for statistics.

6) You accept economic progress but not that it has reduced poverty?

Morpeth you keep putting posts but never give an opinion on anything except to refer to this or that statistics.

Why not read newspapers ---so many on-line.

Watch TV reports and discussions----you can see actual people with mouths going up and down and words coming out.



morpeth Aug 21st 2020 10:14 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12900083)
Morpeth could you learn to quote previous posts in the usual way?

1) It is not irrelevant ---What you refer to is in the past and the four Indian drug companies were discussed at EU level together with those from other countries.

2/3) Is Modi the PM or not? How is supporting one political party over another being "partisan".
How is asking you if you support the opposition irrelevant?
How can a democratic vote be irrelevant?
Morpeth have you ANY idea about Indian politics?

4) We do not agree regarding corruption.
I said it continues at lower level -----I asked if you knew about previous corruption in Congress party ---no reply. Have you even heard of Robert Vadra---just one example.
I doubt if it has totally discontinued at top level---I doubt that in any country including UK.

At lower level I mean going to an office to get your gas card signed, getting a death certificate, getting a legal document translated----
but you wouldn't know about ordinary life would you --it is not described in your research of statistics!

5) I did not say poverty had disappeared I said it was far, far less over the last few years.

You refuse to comment on the innovations for health, food, bank loans, extra disaster cash pay outs because Morpeth you know nothing about ordinary life in present day India, than what you read while sitting in your armchair.

Can you not understand how important these changes are?

It is not "seen from any windows" ---- it is people in many States, many cities, actually knowing poor people ------not sitting in a chair searching for statistics.

6) You accept economic progress but not that it has reduced poverty?

Morpeth you keep putting posts but never give an opinion on anything except to refer to this or that statistics.

Why not read newspapers ---so many on-line.

Watch TV reports and discussions----you can see actual people with mouths going up and down and words coming out.

It is very curious how you can pivot away from addressing topics directly , bring up something irrelevant, and keep om ignoring the issue.

“1) It is not irrelevant ---What you refer to is in the past and the four Indian drug companies were discussed at EU level together with those from other countries.”

Totally irrelevant concerning drug safety in Italy and whether is an issue in India.

It is relevant to ask in a society as corrupt as India why this wouldn't effect the drug industry.

2/3) Is Modi the PM or not? How is supporting one political party over another being "partisan".


Buy a dictionary.

“asking you if you support How is the opposition irrelevant?”

Irrelevant to the topic.


“How can a democratic vote be irrelevant?

Irrelevant to the topic.


Morpeth have you ANY idea about Indian politics?”


Buy a dictionary and pay attention to posts.


“4) We do not agree regarding corruption.”



Quite correct.



“I doubt that in any country including UK.”



Again irrelevant to issue of corruption in India. In any case India scores along with other third world countries with very high corruption, the UK much lower and within the range of the lesser corrupt countries.


“5) I did not say poverty had disappeared I said it was far, far less over the last few years.”




No one denies the economic progress India has made in recent years. Not sure how many times one needs to repeat the obvious.

“You refuse to comment on the innovations for health, food, bank loans, extra disaster cash pay outs because Morpeth you know nothing about ordinary life in present day India, than what you read while sitting in your armchair.”




My comments were based on the preponderance of evidence by Indian and Foreign sources.

“6) You accept economic progress but not that it has reduced poverty?”

I haven’t said that, in fact the contrary on several occasions.

“Morpeth you keep putting posts but never give an opinion on anything except to refer to this or that statistics.”

It is true I prefer to give comments on the topic being discussed, and for which solid evidence can be found.

“Why not read newspapers ---so many on-line.”


There is also a lot of nonsense on line as well, and yes I prefer information on serious subjects from those who have studied a subject well and professionals in their field than popular press.










Bipat Aug 22nd 2020 8:39 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth;12900270 1)It is very curious how you can pivot away from addressing topics directly , bring up something irrelevant, and keep om ignoring the issue.

[color=#222222
It is relevant to ask in a society as corrupt as India why this wouldn't effect the drug industry.

2/3) Is Modi the PM or not? How is supporting one political party over another being "partisan".[/color]

Buy a dictionary.

“asking you if you support How is the opposition irrelevant?”

Irrelevant to the topic.


“How can a democratic vote be irrelevant?

Irrelevant to the topic.


Morpeth have you ANY idea about Indian politics?”


Buy a dictionary and pay attention to posts.


“4) We do not agree regarding corruption.”



Quite correct.



“I doubt that in any country including UK.”



Again irrelevant to issue of corruption in India. In any case India scores along with other third world countries with very high corruption, the UK much lower and within the range of the lesser corrupt countries.


“5) I did not say poverty had disappeared I said it was far, far less over the last few years.”




No one denies the economic progress India has made in recent years. Not sure how many times one needs to repeat the obvious.

“You refuse to comment on the innovations for health, food, bank loans, extra disaster cash pay outs because Morpeth you know nothing about ordinary life in present day India, than what you read while sitting in your armchair.”




My comments were based on the preponderance of evidence by Indian and Foreign sources.

“6) You accept economic progress but not that it has reduced poverty?”

I haven’t said that, in fact the contrary on several occasions.

“Morpeth you keep putting posts but never give an opinion on anything except to refer to this or that statistics.”

It is true I prefer to give comments on the topic being discussed, and for which solid evidence can be found.

“Why not read newspapers ---so many on-line.”


There is also a lot of nonsense on line as well, and yes I prefer information on serious subjects from those who have studied a subject well and professionals in their field than popular press.


Again Morpeth you fail to quote a post in the accepted way on this Forum.

1) I have told you there are no present day concerns regarding drug safety from recognised companies.
I have explained to you that the present Government has reduced corruption at high level. Your statistics I presume are not capable of distinguishing areas of corruption.

2/3 What a ridiculous reply! Voting for a particular party in an election is described as 'partisan'---in that case I presume anyone in any country who votes in an election is 'partisan'.
Do you ever vote for anything Morpeth?:lol:

5) So ---- you refuse to believe about the new health system, food subsidies, bank loans------the solid evidence is that they exist and people use them.
We get gas subsidies should I put a copy of our gas card on here for you to read?

Yes the schemes are not perfect---health scheme needs registration at a bank etc---all do not know this, food subsidies etc need identity proof of Aadhar card , all do not go and apply for this---no offices in remote villages.

6) Where do you get your information from ----personal letters from those giving "solid evidence"-----Morpeth you decide what is or is not solid evidence on-line without the benefit of personal knowledge.
What have you got against TV reports and in depth discussions? You can decide for yourself the integrity of the people speaking.


(Considering the obesity of some politicians you can wonder how they fit onto chairs! --There --something negative for you to add to your collection!)

(Ganesh Chaturthi today -----Just had some amusing WhatsApp photos--------there---something else for you to be unpleasant about!!)



morpeth Aug 22nd 2020 12:58 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12900412)
Again Morpeth you fail to quote a post in the accepted way on this Forum.

1) I have told you there are no present day concerns regarding drug safety from recognised companies.
I have explained to you that the present Government has reduced corruption at high level. Your statistics I presume are not capable of distinguishing areas of corruption.

2/3 What a ridiculous reply! Voting for a particular party in an election is described as 'partisan'---in that case I presume anyone in any country who votes in an election is 'partisan'.
Do you ever vote for anything Morpeth?:lol:

5) So ---- you refuse to believe about the new health system, food subsidies, bank loans------the solid evidence is that they exist and people use them.
We get gas subsidies should I put a copy of our gas card on here for you to read?

Yes the schemes are not perfect---health scheme needs registration at a bank etc---all do not know this, food subsidies etc need identity proof of Aadhar card , all do not go and apply for this---no offices in remote villages.

6) Where do you get your information from ----personal letters from those giving "solid evidence"-----Morpeth you decide what is or is not solid evidence on-line without the benefit of personal knowledge.
What have you got against TV reports and in depth discussions? You can decide for yourself the integrity of the people speaking.


(Considering the obesity of some politicians you can wonder how they fit onto chairs! --There --something negative for you to add to your collection!)

(Ganesh Chaturthi today -----Just had some amusing WhatsApp photos--------there---something else for you to be unpleasant about!!)

You present no evidence whether the drug safety issue has been adequately addressed, nor why if other areas of Indian society so corrupt why it wouldn't effect the drug industry.. Discussing your feeling about what you would like to be true doesn't advance knowledge.

Your constant complaining about the Congress party does give the impression you are a highly partisan Modi supporter, and your deliberate effort to regularly in most cases avoid any and all evidence if you believe it may have a chance of portraying Modi in a negative light. Maybe I am wrong, perhaps you are a highly objective person who carefully considers different points of view and seeks out expert expert evidence in addition to personal observations. Just my impression of a pattern similar to those who are highly partisan and subjective in any country.

Every time you start with someone 'refusing' to consider something generally refers to irrelevant comments, or experts disagreeing with you. What else can be said, on any subject if Indian and Foreign specialists on a subject have an overall consensus on an issue rather than consider their evidence you expect others to believe only anecdotal observations even if in contradiction to all evidence it is rather hard to resolve questions based on such ' logic'

I have never denied the type of benefits and subsidies you describe so why on earth would you imply that I have ?

I appreciate learning from many 'on the ground' observations you have made, for views unsupported or contradicted by evidence it is always interesting the thought process involved. Rather than television shows maybe reading actual sources and considering more serious reports could be beneficial.

.





Bipat Aug 22nd 2020 2:24 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12900477)
1) You present no evidence whether the drug safety issue has been adequately addressed, nor why if other areas of Indian society so corrupt why it wouldn't effect the drug industry.. Discussing your feeling about what you would like to be true doesn't advance knowledge.

2) Your constant complaining about the Congress party does give the impression you are a highly partisan Modi supporter, and your deliberate effort to regularly in most cases avoid any and all evidence if you believe it may have a chance of portraying Modi in a negative light. Maybe I am wrong, perhaps you are a highly objective person who carefully considers different points of view and seeks out expert expert evidence in addition to personal observations. Just my impression of a pattern similar to those who are highly partisan and subjective in any country.

3) Every time you start with someone 'refusing' to consider something generally refers to irrelevant comments, or experts disagreeing with you. What else can be said, on any subject if Indian and Foreign specialists on a subject have an overall consensus on an issue rather than consider their evidence you expect others to believe only anecdotal observations even if in contradiction to all evidence it is rather hard to resolve questions based on such ' logic'

I have never denied the type of benefits and subsidies you describe so why on earth would you imply that I have ?

I appreciate learning from many 'on the ground' observations you have made, for views unsupported or contradicted by evidence it is always interesting the thought process involved. Rather than television shows maybe reading actual sources and considering more serious reports could be beneficial.

.

1) Morpeth it does not happen that people give reports as to how good Companies are ---they -only report problems.
You refuse to accept or discuss that a firm such as AstraZeneca chose an India for its first contract to produce the Oxford vaccine.
Again you refuse to believe what i told you about low-level corruption as compared with government and companies corruption.
You keep on repeating out of date reports.

2) The Congress party doesn't have a leader---it is in total disarray.
Are you saying that it is not a dynastic party? Surely even you can understand father-daughter-son-son-daughter-in-law-grandson!
Nehru was in effect a 'dictator'---there was no opposition at that time.

(They do not actually at this moment have a leader! Mother Sonia has taken over.)
(I admire Sonia ---she didn't ask for this life--I have a heart rending video of the recently bereaved Sonia screaming "no" as her husband was dragged into a group to be chosen PM.)
I believe that Priyanka Gandhi could have lead the party, however her husband Robert Vadra has spoiled that for her.
Shashi Tharoor was another possible---on bail for a serious offence -----do you support him? :lol: I remember your previous comments.

Who would you vote for??

(I have never said that Modi is perfect ----as always you choose the wrong things to complain about!)

3) What you consider "experts" are often not familiar with the situations they are gathering statistics from, there are always opposing views---you choose the ones that fit your own views.
I presume you accept the result of a general election?

4) Politicians speaking in television discussions and arguments you do not consider actual sources?? Newspaper reports ----only valid if about some atrocity??

(Oh no---just paid statistic gatherers regardless of whether they have ever been to an area before or even in the country before----they are the ones you believe. I presume you know that people are also often encouraged/paid to give certain answers).

Happy Ganesh Chaturthi----(something to irritate you further!!)

morpeth Aug 23rd 2020 12:39 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12900504)
1) Morpeth it does not happen that people give reports as to how good Companies are ---they -only report problems.
You refuse to accept or discuss that a firm such as AstraZeneca chose an India for its first contract to produce the Oxford vaccine.
Again you refuse to believe what i told you about low-level corruption as compared with government and companies corruption.
You keep on repeating out of date reports.

2) The Congress party doesn't have a leader---it is in total disarray.
Are you saying that it is not a dynastic party? Surely even you can understand father-daughter-son-son-daughter-in-law-grandson!
Nehru was in effect a 'dictator'---there was no opposition at that time.

(They do not actually at this moment have a leader! Mother Sonia has taken over.)
(I admire Sonia ---she didn't ask for this life--I have a heart rending video of the recently bereaved Sonia screaming "no" as her husband was dragged into a group to be chosen PM.)
I believe that Priyanka Gandhi could have lead the party, however her husband Robert Vadra has spoiled that for her.
Shashi Tharoor was another possible---on bail for a serious offence -----do you support him? :lol: I remember your previous comments.

Who would you vote for??

(I have never said that Modi is perfect ----as always you choose the wrong things to complain about!)

3) What you consider "experts" are often not familiar with the situations they are gathering statistics from, there are always opposing views---you choose the ones that fit your own views.
I presume you accept the result of a general election?

4) Politicians speaking in television discussions and arguments you do not consider actual sources?? Newspaper reports ----only valid if about some atrocity??

(Oh no---just paid statistic gatherers regardless of whether they have ever been to an area before or even in the country before----they are the ones you believe. I presume you know that people are also often encouraged/paid to give certain answers).

Happy Ganesh Chaturthi----(something to irritate you further!!)

Amazing how you cannot address issues directly or write irrelevant comments.


“You refuse to accept or discuss that a firm such as AstraZeneca chose an India for its first contract to produce the Oxford vaccine.”

Because as explained it was irrelevant to the question asked.

“Again, you refuse to believe what i told you about low-level corruption as compared with government and companies corruption.

I go by evidence and logic. You have not provided either.


“2) The Congress party doesn't have a leader---it is in total disarray.
Are you saying that it is not a dynastic party?


Read the posts I did not comment either way about the Congress party, you must be confusing this thread with another.


“(I have never said that Modi is perfect ----as always you choose the wrong things to complain about!)”

I complained about nonsense, or policies in a poor third world country that are wasteful of funds that can help the poor.

“3) What you consider "experts" are often not familiar with the situations they are gathering statistics from, there are always opposing views---you choose the ones that fit your own views.”


I considered different of view from Indian and foreign experts who know more about the subject than you and I, and not a single 1 remotely supported your point of view.


“I presume you accept the result of a general election?”

I have no idea what this refers to.

“4) Politicians speaking in television discussions and arguments you do not consider actual sources?? Newspaper reports ----only valid if about some atrocity??”


Why wouldn’t one seek out experts on a topic that political propaganda ?

“(Oh no---just paid statistic gatherers regardless of whether they have ever been to an area before or even in the country before----they are the ones you believe. I presume you know that people are also often encouraged/paid to give certain answers).”


In the various discussions I provided various sources and links, including one by an Indian who did a two-year study on one issue, and included actual videos. Then I presented various sources who had studied the issue, sources both Indian and foreign, from different institutions. Your response was (a) what you see outside your window (b) what your family tells you. We have gone over this time and time again, it is simple- you prefer to ignore any evidence from any serious source. So, no reason to go over.


Bipat Aug 23rd 2020 2:15 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12900866)
Amazing how you cannot address issues directly or write irrelevant comments.


“You refuse to accept or discuss that a firm such as AstraZeneca chose an India for its first contract to produce the Oxford vaccine.”

1)Because as explained it was irrelevant to the question asked.

“Again, you refuse to believe what i told you about low-level corruption as compared with government and companies corruption.

2) I go by evidence and logic. You have not provided either.


“3) The Congress party doesn't have a leader---it is in total disarray.
Are you saying that it is not a dynastic party?

Read the posts I did not comment either way about the Congress party, you must be confusing this thread with another.


“(I have never said that Modi is perfect ----as always you choose the wrong things to complain about!)”

I complained about nonsense, or policies in a poor third world country that are wasteful of funds that can help the poor.

4) What you consider "experts" are often not familiar with the situations they are gathering statistics from, there are always opposing views---you choose the ones that fit your own views.”


I considered different of view from Indian and foreign experts who know more about the subject than you and I, and not a single 1 remotely supported your point of view.


5)“I presume you accept the result of a general election?”

I have no idea what this refers to.

“6) speaking in television discussions and arguments you do not consider actual sources?? Newspaper reports ----only valid if about some atrocity??”


Why wouldn’t one seek out experts on a topic that political propaganda ?

“(Oh no---just paid statistic gatherers regardless of whether they have ever been to an area before or even in the country before----they are the ones you believe. I presume you know that people are also often encouraged/paid to give certain answers).”


7)In the various discussions I provided various sources and links, including one by an Indian who did a two-year study on one issue, and included actual videos. Then I presented various sources who had studied the issue, sources both Indian and foreign, from different institutions. Your response was (a) what you see outside your window (b) what your family tells you. We have gone over this time and time again, it is simple- you prefer to ignore any evidence from any serious source. So, no reason to go over.


Morpeth you still have not learned how to quote a post.

1) What evidence do you want? When you consider other countries dealing with India regarding pharmaceutical products as irrelevant. (Including a trade deal with USA said to be in the 11th hour!
See link at end of this post.

2) I gave you evidence of low level corruption ---I gave you evidence of previous Government corruption.
How is it possible to give evidence that corruption is far less? Evidence comes when it happens.

3) You stated in your last post that I complained about the Congress party.

4)) As I said you choose your particular 'experts' to fit your view.

5) You discount anything in newspapers----so I asked if you believe it when you see the result of a general election!

6) So in your view "experts" are not invited to appear on TV, or are quoted in newspapers. Do you watch Indian TV channels if not how can you judge?

7) I have provided many links in a different part of the Forum. You choose the 'experts' who support your view and discount anything else.

Morpeth anyone who actually lives in India will tell you about the vast differences in poverty in most States (not all)---the reduced corruption at high level, the advances in science and drug production.

You might like to look up the ever increasing medical tourism from Western countries to India, there is a special visa for it! (
Obviously the Pandemic has halted this.

India is having good treatment outcomes for treatment of Covid-19 patients. (I do not know whether this is due to very early admissions)
Remdesivir is being actively used. .

https://theprint.in/health/remdesivi...generic-versio


Again you bring up the window and relatives----'change the tape'.

As you are so keen to write about India from a distance why not stick to the title of the thread.










caretaker Aug 23rd 2020 2:42 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12900504)
Happy Ganesh Chaturthi----(something to irritate you further!!)

It may be irritating, but it's important to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

morpeth Aug 24th 2020 6:22 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12900890)
Morpeth you still have not learned how to quote a post.

1) What evidence do you want? When you consider other countries dealing with India regarding pharmaceutical products as irrelevant. (Including a trade deal with USA said to be in the 11th hour!
See link at end of this post.

2) I gave you evidence of low level corruption ---I gave you evidence of previous Government corruption.
How is it possible to give evidence that corruption is far less? Evidence comes when it happens.

3) You stated in your last post that I complained about the Congress party.

4)) As I said you choose your particular 'experts' to fit your view.

5) You discount anything in newspapers----so I asked if you believe it when you see the result of a general election!

6) So in your view "experts" are not invited to appear on TV, or are quoted in newspapers. Do you watch Indian TV channels if not how can you judge?

7) I have provided many links in a different part of the Forum. You choose the 'experts' who support your view and discount anything else.

Morpeth anyone who actually lives in India will tell you about the vast differences in poverty in most States (not all)---the reduced corruption at high level, the advances in science and drug production.

You might like to look up the ever increasing medical tourism from Western countries to India, there is a special visa for it! (
Obviously the Pandemic has halted this.

India is having good treatment outcomes for treatment of Covid-19 patients. (I do not know whether this is due to very early admissions)
Remdesivir is being actively used. .

https://theprint.in/health/remdesivi...generic-versio


Again you bring up the window and relatives----'change the tape'.

As you are so keen to write about India from a distance why not stick to the title of the thread.

You may wish to consider in the discussions I provided a range of sources both Indian and Foreign from those who actually researched and studied the issues-the response received was every serious study was wrong because of your hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

This is combined with the lack of logic employed. You saw you have provided "evidence" about corruption trends - did I miss some link to a serious report on the issue you posted- and further the perception or reality that the corruption situation has improved, doesn't mean that the widespread third world levels of corruption has disappeared- nor do I deny tat there may have been an improvement. But I can virtually guarantee you when the new year studies appear India will still be in the bottom half of world rankings along with other Third World countries- corruption rarely disappears dramatically in a few short years.

The issue is that consistently you are so pro-extreme in support support of Modi and constant denigration and of the Congress party, extreme Indian nationalism defending the use of armed force to achieve nationalist objectives and prestige projects while rejecting any serious evidence on most matters, does , raise an issue to what degree your objectivity is.

I bring up only the evidence you consistently use, by all means I welcome links to serious study.

As in any country if you rely overwhelming on general popular media and simultaneously reject serious study or evidence, conclusions or opinions thus derived may be questionable.

I have no reason to be pro or against Modi and his party, I have an impression overall he has done a better job on the economy from the news but also businessmen I have spoken to and a few economic surveys I have read.I can be reasonable objective as I have no personal interest or allegiance to a particular party there. You have indicated a very limited understanding of basic economics but strong opinions whether about India or Brexit- I admit I do not understand how one can not understand how one can have limited understanding of basic economic terms or even look up basic information but then have strong opinions.

I simply asked a question about drug safety in India,you haven't provided the slightest degree of evidence, even a newspaper report on the issue, either- so to me it means hard to ave an opinion either way, it appears you have a strong view it isn't an issue though without any reason to hold that opinion- a typical example of nationalism. for the country - you reject to the word adopted- you have chosen to live in and have views to fit in better.
.

Bipat Aug 24th 2020 8:46 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12901078)
You may wish to consider in the discussions I provided a range of sources both Indian and Foreign from those who actually researched and studied the issues-the response received was every serious study was wrong because of your hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

1) This is combined with the lack of logic employed. You saw you have provided "evidence" about corruption trends - did I miss some link to a serious report on the issue you posted- and further the perception or reality that the corruption situation has improved, doesn't mean that the widespread third world levels of corruption has disappeared- nor do I deny tat there may have been an improvement. But I can virtually guarantee you when the new year studies appear India will still be in the bottom half of world rankings along with other Third World countries- corruption rarely disappears dramatically in a few short years.

2) The issue is that consistently you are so pro-extreme in support support of Modi and constant denigration and of the Congress party, extreme Indian nationalism defending the use of armed force to achieve nationalist objectives and prestige projects while rejecting any serious evidence on most matters, does , raise an issue to what degree your objectivity is.

I bring up only the evidence you consistently use, by all means I welcome links to serious study.

3) As in any country if you rely overwhelming on general popular media and simultaneously reject serious study or evidence, conclusions or opinions thus derived may be questionable.

I have no reason to be pro or against Modi and his party, I have an impression overall he has done a better job on the economy from the news but also businessmen I have spoken to and a few economic surveys I have read.I can be reasonable objective as I have no personal interest or allegiance to a particular party there. You have indicated a very limited understanding of basic economics but strong opinions whether about India or Brexit- I admit I do not understand how one can not understand how one can have limited understanding of basic economic terms or even look up basic information but then have strong opinions.

4) I simply asked a question about drug safety in India,you haven't provided the slightest degree of evidence, even a newspaper report on the issue, either- so to me it means hard to ave an opinion either way, it appears you have a strong view it isn't an issue though without any reason to hold that opinion-

5) a typical example of nationalism. for the country - you reject to the word adopted- you have chosen to live in and have views to fit in better.
.

1) Morpeth this is a discussion Forum. I pointed out to you the differences of corruption a low level and political level. I gave you an important name.
You refuse to discuss just give out of date figures you read on-line.

2) Again you refuse to discuss. Are you aware of the General election result? Are you aware that the leader of the Congress party did not get a seat. Are you aware that the President yesterday said she was resigning?
Obviously the majority of Indian people voted in the present Government----how is that me being nationalistic?
Are those who voted for the Conservative candidates in the UK but those who voted labour not? (Or do you have to look it up in a book to answer?)

3) So only those with a degree in economics should be allowed to vote in a General Election??

4) For FFS Morpeth I gave you evidence of top foreign countries choosing Indian companies to manufacture their products.
Again you refuse to discuss. The use of remdesivir at this time is so important----yet you have no interest to even mention it!

5) No --Morpeth not "nationalism"---knowledge. (I do not need to "fit in" do you really believe people there do not have different views from each other --they are not 'clones')

I have frequently told you that I could write pages about what is wrong with India, as with your inability to discuss you don't even ask what they are---
just repeat the chosen statistics that suit your own distant view and views of business friends* ignoring anything to the contrary.

* Such people often do not know the reality of the lives of 'ordinary' people and can usually be identified wherever they are.:lol:



morpeth Aug 24th 2020 3:44 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901103)
1) Morpeth this is a discussion Forum. I pointed out to you the differences of corruption a low level and political level. I gave you an important name.
You refuse to discuss just give out of date figures you read on-line.

2) Again you refuse to discuss. Are you aware of the General election result? Are you aware that the leader of the Congress party did not get a seat. Are you aware that the President yesterday said she was resigning?
Obviously the majority of Indian people voted in the present Government----how is that me being nationalistic?
Are those who voted for the Conservative candidates in the UK but those who voted labour not? (Or do you have to look it up in a book to answer?)

3) So only those with a degree in economics should be allowed to vote in a General Election??

4) For FFS Morpeth I gave you evidence of top foreign countries choosing Indian companies to manufacture their products.
Again you refuse to discuss. The use of remdesivir at this time is so important----yet you have no interest to even mention it!

5) No --Morpeth not "nationalism"---knowledge. (I do not need to "fit in" do you really believe people there do not have different views from each other --they are not 'clones')

I have frequently told you that I could write pages about what is wrong with India, as with your inability to discuss you don't even ask what they are---
just repeat the chosen statistics that suit your own distant view and views of business friends* ignoring anything to the contrary.

* Such people often do not know the reality of the lives of 'ordinary' people and can usually be identified wherever they are.:lol:

This gets more and more strange.

You have made your usual anecdotal observations, and as usual unable to provide any support that is relevant. So I note your observations, and will be interesting future reports on the issue whether they confirm or deny your anecdotal observations. I would assume businessmen who have to deal with corruption in India more up to date than either you or I.

I simply pointed out the obvious that your posts would seem to indicate an extreme partisan position especially as you typically unable to provide evidence or reports supporting your position. I do not know why I would be expected about some trivia about Indian electoral politics that is irrelevant to my point to the discussion.

I asked a question about drug safety in India, and you keep repeating over and over about production happening in India, as if that is definitive proof one way or another. It is well-known the quality and safety issues fairly common in Chinese products, yet no one denies such problems because foreign companies can decide to produce there. Perhaps having an open mind might help in discussions Bipat. I asked a question for which I have no problem admitting I do not know the answer. You haven't given any evidence even one of your newspaper reports to say the situation has improved, or even any reason the situation may have improved. Maybe it has, but appears you don't know so why argue it has ?

It is hard to deal with this term 'refuse to answer' as (a) I have shown myself quite willing to engage in discussion with you (b) I do tend to disregard irrelevant trivia you insert into discussion ( c) or I explain to you why irrelevant but have to end up doing several times as you do not understand the first time. The only other explanation I can think of is that Indian English has evolved to quite different meanings than standard English hence the communication issue, I can certainly understand if you are around non-native English speakers perhaps that leads to some communication issues.

Bipat Aug 24th 2020 5:26 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12901216)
This gets more and more strange.

1) You have made your usual anecdotal observations, and as usual unable to provide any support that is relevant. So I note your observations, and will be interesting future reports on the issue whether they confirm or deny your anecdotal observations. I would assume businessmen who have to deal with corruption in India more up to date than either you or I.

2) I simply pointed out the obvious that your posts would seem to indicate an extreme partisan position especially as you typically unable to provide evidence or reports supporting your position. I do not know why I would be expected about some trivia about Indian electoral politics that is irrelevant to my point to the discussion.

3) I asked a question about drug safety in India, and you keep repeating over and over about production happening in India, as if that is definitive proof one way or another. It is well-known the quality and safety issues fairly common in Chinese products, yet no one denies such problems because foreign companies can decide to produce there. Perhaps having an open mind might help in discussions Bipat. I asked a question for which I have no problem admitting I do not know the answer. You haven't given any evidence even one of your newspaper reports to say the situation has improved, or even any reason the situation may have improved. Maybe it has, but appears you don't know so why argue it has ?

4) It is hard to deal with this term 'refuse to answer' as (a) I have shown myself quite willing to engage in discussion with you (b) I do tend to disregard irrelevant trivia you insert into discussion ( c) or I explain to you why irrelevant but have to end up doing several times as you do not understand the first time. The only other explanation I can think of is that Indian English has evolved to quite different meanings than standard English hence the communication issue, I can certainly understand if you are around non-native English speakers perhaps that leads to some communication issues.

1) I provide you with 'facts' Morpeth. If you don't believe them or think that your business associates are the only knowledgeable individuals that is your problem.

2) An opposition political party in disarray and without a leader apart from the previous leader's mother is hardly "trivial".
It is reported on all news channels.
So supporting the other party as do the majority of voters is an "extreme partisan" position??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-53887010

3) Morpeth I really wonder at the workings of your mind; why would reputable companies choose Indian Companies to produce their vaccines and drugs if they were not satisfied with safety?
You say that you do not know, so why assume (as always) that your out of date reports are valid.
Surely you listen and read about the vaccines being produced for COVID-19

One example for you with plenty of references to look up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serum_Institute_of_India

4) Stating that anything you disagree with is irrelevant or that the poster cannot speak English is not discussion Morpeth!

(Perhaps you had better return to the thread topic, it might feel less strange to you.)
(Was just discussing past UK TV series with OH and remembered "The Jewel in the Crown" ---which I considered an improvement on the lengthy four volume book which needed editing.----it was all in English so OK for you to understand.
Do you remember it? ---was very popular at the time)



morpeth Aug 24th 2020 8:35 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901253)
1) I provide you with 'facts' Morpeth. If you don't believe them or think that your business associates are the only knowledgeable individuals that is your problem.

2) An opposition political party in disarray and without a leader apart from the previous leader's mother is hardly "trivial".
It is reported on all news channels.
So supporting the other party as do the majority of voters is an "extreme partisan" position??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-53887010

3) Morpeth I really wonder at the workings of your mind; why would reputable companies choose Indian Companies to produce their vaccines and drugs if they were not satisfied with safety?
You say that you do not know, so why assume (as always) that your out of date reports are valid.
Surely you listen and read about the vaccines being produced for COVID-19

One example for you with plenty of references to look up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serum_Institute_of_India

4) Stating that anything you disagree with is irrelevant or that the poster cannot speak English is not discussion Morpeth!

(Perhaps you had better return to the thread topic, it might feel less strange to you.)
(Was just discussing past UK TV series with OH and remembered "The Jewel in the Crown" ---which I considered an improvement on the lengthy four volume book which needed editing.----it was all in English so OK for you to understand.
Do you remember it? ---was very popular at the time)

You provided no facts to back your assertion that every study by Indian and Foreign source is wrong, zero evidence not even a link to a newspaper article. I really do not know if you understand what the words "facts " or "evidence" means.

I stated clearly several times I do not know whether safety issues have improved in India, you quote no evidence or report that it has..Again a comprehension issue, either you are employing Indian English with different meanings or not reading the posts. I do not know which.

Your comments on party politics in India was irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

Why would reputable companies produce in China with its quality issues ? Maybe the issue if there is one in India is if the company is small and bribes inspectors, maybe Indian managed companies don't follow proper safety protocols, or maybe the situation has improved, or maybe problem is foreign company thinking they can bypass safety issues by locating production in India but don't bribe the right people. I don't know and apparently neither do you.At lease I have no problem stating so.





morpeth Aug 24th 2020 8:41 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901253)
1) I provide you with 'facts' Morpeth. If you don't believe them or think that your business associates are the only knowledgeable individuals that is your problem.

2) An opposition political party in disarray and without a leader apart from the previous leader's mother is hardly "trivial".
It is reported on all news channels.
So supporting the other party as do the majority of voters is an "extreme partisan" position??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-53887010

3) Morpeth I really wonder at the workings of your mind; why would reputable companies choose Indian Companies to produce their vaccines and drugs if they were not satisfied with safety?
You say that you do not know, so why assume (as always) that your out of date reports are valid.
Surely you listen and read about the vaccines being produced for COVID-19

One example for you with plenty of references to look up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serum_Institute_of_India

4) Stating that anything you disagree with is irrelevant or that the poster cannot speak English is not discussion Morpeth!

(Perhaps you had better return to the thread topic, it might feel less strange to you.)
(Was just discussing past UK TV series with OH and remembered "The Jewel in the Crown" ---which I considered an improvement on the lengthy four volume book which needed editing.----it was all in English so OK for you to understand.
Do you remember it? ---was very popular at the time)

I try to avoid Wikipedia as a source but all your link shows is a decision to produce drugs in India, it doesn't address the prior safety concerns by the EU one way or another. I was just curious, if I took prescription medicines, which I don't, just out of caution I wouldn't want products made in India or China, so doesn't affect me.

Bipat Aug 24th 2020 9:01 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12901316)
You provided no facts to back your assertion that every study by Indian and Foreign source is wrong, zero evidence not even a link to a newspaper article. I really do not know if you understand what the words "facts " or "evidence" means.

1) I stated clearly several times I do not know whether safety issues have improved in India, you quote no evidence or report that it has..Again a comprehension issue, either you are employing Indian English with different meanings or not reading the posts. I do not know which.

2) Your comments on party politics in India was irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

3)Why would reputable companies produce in China with its quality issues ? Maybe the issue if there is one in India is if the company is small and bribes inspectors, maybe Indian managed companies don't follow proper safety protocols, or maybe the situation has improved, or maybe problem is foreign company thinking they can bypass safety issues by locating production in India but don't bribe the right people. I don't know and apparently neither do you.At lease I have no problem stating so.



1) No, you do not know so you assume there are safety issues. I think it is you with the language problems Morpeth ----I must apologise---I had assumed you were British.

2) You made various 'accusations' because I supported the political party voted into power.
You stated the opposition problems trivial ---I gave you a link to show the opposition were even less capable of rule than the British labour party. Were you able to read it?

3) AstraZeneca the company with the contracts for the Oxford vaccine also now has contracts with several countries including USA- do you really think they and other British companies are deliberately bypassing safety issues?

You many be putting yourself and/or this Forum in trouble with libel issues Morpeth!

Just a thought---- were you able to read the links---as I said --do you have a language issue?

I suggested you get back to the thread topic of 'Inglorious Empire' Morpeth.


Bipat Aug 24th 2020 9:08 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12901317)
1)I try to avoid Wikipedia as a source but all your link shows is a decision to produce drugs in India, 2) it doesn't address the prior safety concerns by the EU one way or another. I was just curious, 3) if I took prescription medicines, which I don't, just out of caution I wouldn't want products made in India or China, so doesn't affect me.

1) I thought Wikipedia would be simple for you to read----if you look you will see multiple references that you can access.

2) As you said "prior" concerns, that were dealt with years ago.

3) You wouldn't have much choice, so much generic medicine is imported. India is one of the largest producers.

As I said above back to thread topic.





morpeth Aug 25th 2020 8:18 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901324)
1) No, you do not know so you assume there are safety issues. I think it is you with the language problems Morpeth ----I must apologise---I had assumed you were British.

2) You made various 'accusations' because I supported the political party voted into power.
You stated the opposition problems trivial ---I gave you a link to show the opposition were even less capable of rule than the British labour party. Were you able to read it?

3) AstraZeneca the company with the contracts for the Oxford vaccine also now has contracts with several countries including USA- do you really think they and other British companies are deliberately bypassing safety issues?

You many be putting yourself and/or this Forum in trouble with libel issues Morpeth!

Just a thought---- were you able to read the links---as I said --do you have a language issue?

I suggested you get back to the thread topic of 'Inglorious Empire' Morpeth.

It appears you do not understand the basics of libel laws which is not uncommon with people who have limited or no understanding of basic legal principles.

I clearly stated several times I did not know current status of drug safety in India , simply asking whether situation has improved since prior reports- you could provide not the slightest shred of evidence that it has.-as usual. You are terribly confused ,as I indicated that a company entering into drug production in India isn't a fact showing whether prior concerns are no longer present.I also gave common sense example that companies routinely invest and do business in countries where there has been expressed safety and quality concerns with China being a well known example. I actually worked on a project as a consultant with a company - top in its field- that made a huge investment in China knowing full well the quality of the products was and continued to be a concern.

I never understand why you post irrelevant links.

May I suggest if you post in a public forum it shouldn't be a surprise people respond.



morpeth Aug 25th 2020 8:22 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901327)
1) I thought Wikipedia would be simple for you to read----if you look you will see multiple references that you can access.

2) As you said "prior" concerns, that were dealt with years ago.

3) You wouldn't have much choice, so much generic medicine is imported. India is one of the largest producers.

As I said above back to thread topic.

So is there no evidence or report stating that such concerns have been addressed ? On what do you base that opinion ? So you looked at the references and the reference addressed the topic being discussed ?


Bipat Aug 25th 2020 8:45 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 
[QUOTE=morpeth;12901454 1)It appears you do not understand the basics of libel laws which is not uncommon with people who have limited or no understanding of basic legal principles.

I clearly stated several times I did not know current status of drug safety in India , simply asking whether situation has improved since prior reports- you could provide not the slightest shred of evidence that it has.-as usual. You are terribly confused ,as
2) I indicated that a company entering into drug production in India isn't a fact showing whether prior concerns are no longer present.I also gave common sense example that companies routinely invest and do business in countries where there has been expressed safety and quality concerns with China being a well known example. I actually worked on a project as a consultant with a company - top in its field- that made a huge investment in China knowing full well the quality of the products was and continued to be a concern.

3) I never understand why you post irrelevant links.

4 May I suggest if you post in a public forum it shouldn't be a surprise people respond.[/QUOTE]




1) I am a barrister Morpeth---Gray's Inn. Changed career in later life and then did medico/legal jobs. I do know the meaning of 'libel'.

2) We are discussing vaccine production, of supreme importance.

3) You refuse to discuss the political opposition when insulting myself for supporting the Government. You know nothing about the opposition but a BBC link put to help, you describe as "irrelevant"?

4) Most people on this Forum give sensible non- insulting replies and stick to the topic. Could I suggest you do that.

PS (Being a trained 'arguer' means I foolishly feel compelled reply to you!:lol:)

morpeth Aug 25th 2020 4:02 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901459)
1) I am a barrister Morpeth---Gray's Inn. Changed career in later life and then did medico/legal jobs. I do know the meaning of 'libel'.

2) We are discussing vaccine production, of supreme importance.

3) You refuse to discuss the political opposition when insulting myself for supporting the Government. You know nothing about the opposition but a BBC link put to help, you describe as "irrelevant"?

4) Most people on this Forum give sensible non- insulting replies and stick to the topic. Could I suggest you do that.

PS (Being a trained 'arguer' means I foolishly feel compelled reply to you!:lol:)

The discussion was about safety not about vaccines. Maybe you are confused with another thread?

No I just pointed out it appears you are so partisan so as to lose objectivity I would guess anyone familiar with your posts would probably agree with. Your disregard for evidence has been noted by others as well . Many people are overly-partisan, but nice people hardly an insult.



Bipat Aug 25th 2020 4:42 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12901560)
1)The discussion was about safety not about vaccines. Maybe you are confused with another thread?

2) No I just pointed out it appears you are so partisan so as to lose objectivity I would guess anyone familiar with your posts would probably agree with. Your disregard for evidence has been noted by others as well . Many people are overly-partisan, but nice people hardly an insult.

1) I gave examples to you and pointed out that the production of vaccines for world use would not be entrusted by to a non-safe companies.

2) You have not explained how supporting a Government in power by a large majority is "so partisan". Obviously as with any government they make mistakes and I have pointed out some.
Morpeth you refuse to say what the point is of supporting the opposition when it is not possible that it could win an election. You have no knowledge of politics and refuse to say what your reasoning is.
Your total disregard for evidence regarding this and much else and your habit of then accusing and never explaining why.
(Other posters---- EMR seems to have been been removed!:lol:)

Perhaps as I suggested you could get back to the thread topic.


morpeth Aug 25th 2020 5:44 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901570)
1) I gave examples to you and pointed out that the production of vaccines for world use would not be entrusted by to a non-safe companies.

2) You have not explained how supporting a Government in power by a large majority is "so partisan". Obviously as with any government they make mistakes and I have pointed out some.
Morpeth you refuse to say what the point is of supporting the opposition when it is not possible that it could win an election. You have no knowledge of politics and refuse to say what your reasoning is.
Your total disregard for evidence regarding this and much else and your habit of then accusing and never explaining why.
(Other posters---- EMR seems to have been been removed!:lol:)

Perhaps as I suggested you could get back to the thread topic.

“I gave examples to you and pointed out that the production of vaccines for world use would not be entrusted by to a non-safe company.

That obviously not evidence that the situation has improved overall. “would not be entrusted by to a non-safe company”, if only the world was so uniformly perfect.


“2) You have not explained how supporting a Government in power by a large majority is "so partisan". Obviously as with any government they make mistakes and I have pointed out some.”

I have explained. The simple logic is that one can be overly partisan whether a party is in power or not. I do not I think I could imagine anyone defining overly-partisan as depending on the electoral results.



Morpeth you refuse to say what the point is of supporting the opposition when it is not possible that it could win an election. You have no knowledge of politics and refuse to say what your reasoning is.

See above.


“Your total disregard for evidence regarding this and much else and your habit of then accusing and never explaining why.”

Our frequent communication indicates I have taken the time to explain things, often several times *as shown by recent posts). If evidence besides hearsay provided, I have always considered.

“Perhaps as I suggested you could get back to the thread topic.”

I am just responding to your posts.


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