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-   -   Inglorious Empire (https://britishexpats.com/forum/india-169/inglorious-empire-932177/)

Bipat Apr 26th 2020 3:24 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12844492)
Again you ignore the comments that your write in responses about things I have never said or even implied, hence why sometimes whether there is a language issue. I write I don't know something , then you respond about people claiming they know everything. Not being sarcastic just logical.

The issues of the English class system of course are well known, I am unaware of anyone who would claim the treatment of the lower classes in the UK would approach the level of treatment of the lower castes in India,

Morpeth I would like to ask you questions---1)-are you speaking of now or during previous times?

2) Previous times----- I suggested an author to read regarding the unbelievable poverty of the English lower classes in the north of England (and no not Cranford---a book really about herself). She was admired by Dickens even though he tried to 'inhibit' her publications. A 'man' thing!!!
People burning their wooden floors, stairs etc for warmth, in winter, certainly no food, no medicine. Babies born on earth floors with no help. Certainly no medical help whatsoever. Bodies let down from the upper floors to streets for burial as no stairs left to go down. While factory owners increased their wealth certainly despising those described.

3) Present times----How many Indian 'working' class/Dalits do you know at a daily level, being daily part of their working, home lives, their needs, their families, their ambitions----yes they do have ambitions. ???????? If not many or none----I suggest ---**** ***
(At a personal level some have been very efficient at getting Aadhaar and PAN cards for us to get the benefits we are allowed, gas etc.)
Just as we give advice about the free medical benefits which have not always been clearly explained by the government as---- 'how to sign up' for example
Particularly in rural towns and in heavily built town areas all know each other Morpeth).

I agree that in some remote Indian villages atrocities of all kinds can take place-- and there is no excuse for this. Shortage of police. Of course these are described and published to the delight of those wanting to think the worst of the entire country.





morpeth Apr 26th 2020 9:21 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12844517)
Morpeth I would like to ask you questions---1)-are you speaking of now or during previous times?

2) Previous times----- I suggested an author to read regarding the unbelievable poverty of the English lower classes in the north of England (and no not Cranford---a book really about herself). She was admired by Dickens even though he tried to 'inhibit' her publications. A 'man' thing!!!
People burning their wooden floors, stairs etc for warmth, in winter, certainly no food, no medicine. Babies born on earth floors with no help. Certainly no medical help whatsoever. Bodies let down from the upper floors to streets for burial as no stairs left to go down. While factory owners increased their wealth certainly despising those described.

3) Present times----How many Indian 'working' class/Dalits do you know at a daily level, being daily part of their working, home lives, their needs, their families, their ambitions----yes they do have ambitions. ???????? If not many or none----I suggest ---**** ***
(At a personal level some have been very efficient at getting Aadhaar and PAN cards for us to get the benefits we are allowed, gas etc.)
Just as we give advice about the free medical benefits which have not always been clearly explained by the government as---- 'how to sign up' for example
Particularly in rural towns and in heavily built town areas all know each other Morpeth).

I agree that in some remote Indian villages atrocities of all kinds can take place-- and there is no excuse for this. Shortage of police. Of course these are described and published to the delight of those wanting to think the worst of the entire country.

Again my post specifically indicated I didn't claim to know everything about India, in fact specifically have indicated what I didnt know about certain subjects in particular= so why do you respond about people claiming to know everything.If not a comprehension issue what is it ?

This is borderline absurd to claim equivalence concerning the treatment and status of the untouchables in India historically and that of poorer classes in the UK. In any case the discussion brought up by another poster was related to India- please do explain how the experience of the lower classes in England affecting how the untouchables in India were treated, It is admirable your patriotic feeling for India as a foreigner seeking to integrate, but let us avoid nonsense.

morpeth Apr 26th 2020 9:31 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12844517)
Morpeth I would like to ask you questions---1)-are you speaking of now or during previous times?

2) Previous times----- I suggested an author to read regarding the unbelievable poverty of the English lower classes in the north of England (and no not Cranford---a book really about herself). She was admired by Dickens even though he tried to 'inhibit' her publications. A 'man' thing!!!
People burning their wooden floors, stairs etc for warmth, in winter, certainly no food, no medicine. Babies born on earth floors with no help. Certainly no medical help whatsoever. Bodies let down from the upper floors to streets for burial as no stairs left to go down. While factory owners increased their wealth certainly despising those described.

3) Present times----How many Indian 'working' class/Dalits do you know at a daily level, being daily part of their working, home lives, their needs, their families, their ambitions----yes they do have ambitions. ???????? If not many or none----I suggest ---**** ***
(At a personal level some have been very efficient at getting Aadhaar and PAN cards for us to get the benefits we are allowed, gas etc.)
Just as we give advice about the free medical benefits which have not always been clearly explained by the government as---- 'how to sign up' for example
Particularly in rural towns and in heavily built town areas all know each other Morpeth).

I agree that in some remote Indian villages atrocities of all kinds can take place-- and there is no excuse for this. Shortage of police. Of course these are described and published to the delight of those wanting to think the worst of the entire country.

in any case concerning the dalits today looking over several prior posts in almost everyone i disclaimed any current knowledge,if English is not an issue what is ?

plus impossible to discuss as you have stated before no analysis by sociologists,economists or historian is valid , and in particular not by an indian.

as far as north east of england i could respond with memories of family and friends using as you prefer that is the only acceptable source of information but that has no bearing one way or another with situation in India then or now. your notion of equivalence is just absurd as with your denial of the depth and scale of poverty in india.

Bipat Apr 26th 2020 10:24 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12844617)
Again my post specifically indicated I didn't claim to know everything about India, in fact specifically have indicated what I didnt know about certain subjects in particular= so why do you respond about people claiming to know everything.If not a comprehension issue what is it ?

This is borderline absurd to claim equivalence concerning the treatment and status of the untouchables in India historically and that of poorer classes in the UK. In any case the discussion brought up by another poster was related to India- please do explain how the experience of the lower classes in England affecting how the untouchables in India were treated,
It is admirable your patriotic feeling for India as a foreigner seeking to integrate, but let us avoid nonsense.




Morpeth-----I am not a "foreigner" in India. I do not "need" to integrate into my own home.

It might interest you to know that although I read out some of your posts to various Indian people----I am too ashamed to admit that I reply to them.:lol:

morpeth Apr 27th 2020 10:55 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12844638)


Morpeth-----I am not a "foreigner" in India. I do not "need" to integrate into my own home.

It might interest you to know that although I read out some of your posts to various Indian people----I am too ashamed to admit that I reply to them.:lol:

My mistake, I thought you were British, so by definition a foreigner.

In terms of reading out my posts- I am sure in the Soviet Union or China today patriotic propaganda also very prevalent and stifling to rational debate, at least to your credit you are open about your opinion that any scholarly factual analysis you consider useless compared to hearsay by non experts. Seems like a common approach to Brexiters at least you have the courage to admit you dismiss any and all experts.

In any case I am still exceedingly curious how when I specifically write I don't know something or have limited knowledge, you then respond back to people claiming to know everything about India. Or asking if I understand about the prevalence of violence when I didn't say one word about violence. If you as you say are now Indian and not English and have lost a bit of knowledge about English there is no shame of that. I used to speak Indonesian and Betawi fluently, over the years with less practice I only have basic knowledge now, no shame in that.



Bipat Apr 27th 2020 11:55 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12844843)
My mistake, I thought you were British, so by definition a foreigner.

In terms of reading out my posts- I am sure in the Soviet Union or China today patriotic propaganda also very prevalent and stifling to rational debate, at least to your credit you are open about your opinion that any scholarly factual analysis you consider useless compared to hearsay by non experts. Seems like a common approach to Brexiters at least you have the courage to admit you dismiss any and all experts.

In any case I am still exceedingly curious how when I specifically write I don't know something or have limited knowledge, you then respond back to people claiming to know everything about India. Or asking if I understand about the prevalence of violence when I didn't say one word about violence. If you as you say are now Indian and not English and have lost a bit of knowledge about English there is no shame of that. I used to speak Indonesian and Betawi fluently, over the years with less practice I only have basic knowledge now, no shame in that.

Morpeth you are 'priceless'!!:lol:

I am British born and bred----I am not thought of as a "foreigner" in India my other home.---My husband is Indian born and bred our children are both, we are all OCI and have all rights there, except voting and purchase of agricultural land! Can apply for Indian nationality any time.

Morpeth hundreds/thousands of books have been written about history of India and about the Empire. Hundreds of media reports all with differing opinions you from your distance just select out the negative that you want to believe.

Off Topic- as is Brexit and previous pandemic discussion but I read this this morning. See link.
Is it 'fake news'???????
Or is it true?????? We left on one of the last Emirates flights out to be in the UK to give support to our medic daughters ---

Went from safe Karnataka to dangerous UK!!!!!! Offspring insisting now that we don't move out of the house due to our age. Brother and sister in law 'holed' up in our K home whatsapping regularly to check we are OK:lol:

https://newsd.in/uk-minister-lauds-y...-in-karnataka/

PS ----Hope you understood my English!!!!




morpeth Apr 27th 2020 4:35 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12844886)
Morpeth you are 'priceless'!!:lol:

I am British born and bred----I am not thought of as a "foreigner" in India my other home.---My husband is Indian born and bred our children are both, we are all OCI and have all rights there, except voting and purchase of agricultural land! Can apply for Indian nationality any time.

Morpeth hundreds/thousands of books have been written about history of India and about the Empire. Hundreds of media reports all with differing opinions you from your distance just select out the negative that you want to believe.

Off Topic- as is Brexit and previous pandemic discussion but I read this this morning. See link.
Is it 'fake news'???????
Or is it true?????? We left on one of the last Emirates flights out to be in the UK to give support to our medic daughters ---

Went from safe Karnataka to dangerous UK!!!!!! Offspring insisting now that we don't move out of the house due to our age. Brother and sister in law 'holed' up in our K home whatsapping regularly to check we are OK:lol:

https://newsd.in/uk-minister-lauds-y...-in-karnataka/

PS ----Hope you understood my English!!!!

You may wish to check a dictionary the definition of the word in English what the word foreigner means.

It is admirable you try so hard to be Indian through the patriotism for India you have adopted. In any country it is appreciated that immigrants or long term residences became favorable to the new host country. Your constant complaints about the British India I am sure well received, and of course and welcome as a scapegoat for 70 years of Indian rule.

Whether I live in the heart of Bombay or in Argentina I can certainly read and do analysis of what percentage of British taxation stayed in India or not.

As far as various books some have valid opinions, some not some debatable- absurd opinions not based on evidence or logic And in any case you have already written that evidence except hearsay and folk memory isn't valid for analysis or opinion- following that all professors who haven't lived in India or are related to an Indian shouldn't waste time studying in India shouldn't be studying or teaching about India. I am not sure if you realize how absurd this sort of approach is.

I am quite sure walking down a street in Bombay people do not consider you Indian but it is to your credit you try to integrate in your adopted homeland.

morpeth Apr 27th 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12844886)
Morpeth you are 'priceless'!!:lol:

I am British born and bred----I am not thought of as a "foreigner" in India my other home.---My husband is Indian born and bred our children are both, we are all OCI and have all rights there, except voting and purchase of agricultural land! Can apply for Indian nationality any time.

Morpeth hundreds/thousands of books have been written about history of India and about the Empire. Hundreds of media reports all with differing opinions you from your distance just select out the negative that you want to believe.

Off Topic- as is Brexit and previous pandemic discussion but I read this this morning. See link.
Is it 'fake news'???????
Or is it true?????? We left on one of the last Emirates flights out to be in the UK to give support to our medic daughters ---

Went from safe Karnataka to dangerous UK!!!!!! Offspring insisting now that we don't move out of the house due to our age. Brother and sister in law 'holed' up in our K home whatsapping regularly to check we are OK:lol:

https://newsd.in/uk-minister-lauds-y...-in-karnataka/

PS ----Hope you understood my English!!!!

Also again you write things that simply are not true, I have made many positive comments about India so please try to write with some degree of accuracy. Still waiting for the explanation of when I wrote I don't know something or have limited knowledge you then respond about claiming to 'know everything'.

Yes so far it seems India handling well the Corona situation based on statistics to date, and UK at least based on statistics seems to have had poor results- though I am guessing we will know much more as time passes on issues such as herd immunity, final statistics, and whatever recurrence might happen. My children say the same thing as yours.

Bipat Apr 27th 2020 5:19 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12844982)
You may wish to check a dictionary the definition of the word in English what the word foreigner means.

1) It is admirable you try so hard to be Indian through the patriotism for India you have adopted. In any country it is appreciated that immigrants or long term residences became favorable to the new host country. Your constant complaints about the British India I am sure well received, and of course and welcome as a scapegoat for 70 years of Indian rule.

Whether I live in the heart of Bombay or in Argentina 2) I can certainly read and do analysis of what percentage of British taxation stayed in India or not.

As far as various books some have valid opinions, some not some debatable- absurd opinions not based on evidence or logic And in any case you have already written that evidence except hearsay and folk memory isn't valid for analysis or opinion- following that all professors who haven't lived in India or are related to an Indian shouldn't waste time studying in India shouldn't be studying or teaching about India. I am not sure if you realize how absurd this sort of approach is.

3) I am quite sure walking down a street in Bombay people do not consider you Indian but it is to your credit 1) you try t0 integrate in your adopted homeland.

1) Morpeth your posts sometimes make me want to vomit!!!!!!:sarcasm: :rofl:

I don't TRY to be anything---I AM. "Adopted homeland"? ----It IS my homeland. Where most of my family live! UK is ALSO my "homeland".
I presume you are one of those people in the TIO Brexit threads that Remainers grumble about, and who sees migrants as perpetual "foreigners".
Yes I look different from the average walker in Mumbai---I have pale skin. No-one in our home town gives me a second look!!!
What about our children-----what do they TRY to be ---which country do they TRY to integrate into?

Local knowledge is "patriotism"????

2) Why should ANY taxation of Indian people have gone to Britain??????????????????? Or to the building of things in India for the sole benefit of the British at that time?


3) (I presume by your reasoning, three of the British Cabinet Ministers walking down a street in London people do not consider them British!
I hope they are trying to "integrate"!!!)


morpeth Apr 28th 2020 5:14 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12845028)
1) Morpeth your posts sometimes make me want to vomit!!!!!!:sarcasm: :rofl:

I don't TRY to be anything---I AM. "Adopted homeland"? ----It IS my homeland. Where most of my family live! UK is ALSO my "homeland".
I presume you are one of those people in the TIO Brexit threads that Remainers grumble about, and who sees migrants as perpetual "foreigners".
Yes I look different from the average walker in Mumbai---I have pale skin. No-one in our home town gives me a second look!!!
What about our children-----what do they TRY to be ---which country do they TRY to integrate into?

Local knowledge is "patriotism"????

2) Why should ANY taxation of Indian people have gone to Britain??????????????????? Or to the building of things in India for the sole benefit of the British at that time?


3) (I presume by your reasoning, three of the British Cabinet Ministers walking down a street in London people do not consider them British!
I hope they are trying to "integrate"!!!)

Simply look at a dictionary what the word foreigner means.

You were not born and bred in India nor even have the nationality, as far as I know, so what else would you be ? And I have said it is admirable you have sought to integrate and blend in, and feel at home there.

Whatever reason the railways and other infrastructure was built, it was a benefit to India, which I assume was the topic. You are the one who tried to give the impression some massive amount of taxation went for India to Britain- if you recall I presented you statistics -derived from Indian sources since you don't believe anything is valid from British sources as you have stated several times- how minimal it was. In terms of the overall benefits or disadvantages of British rule for India certainly one can debate. Certainly the British needed to pay for the civil service and to maintain law and order, as well as infrastructure and other benefits. A bit challenging to imagine a continuation of the Mughal Empire would have been as beneficial as British rule.

Local knowledge that ignores evidence or logic is blind patriotism.

Bipat Apr 28th 2020 8:24 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12845188)
1)Simply look at a dictionary what the word foreigner means.

You were not born and bred in India nor even have the nationality, as far as I know, so what else would you be ? And I have said it is admirable you have sought to integrate and blend in, and feel at home there.

2) Whatever reason the railways and other infrastructure was built, it was a benefit to India, which I assume was the topic. You are the one who tried to give the impression some massive amount of taxation went for India to Britain- if you recall I presented you statistics -derived from Indian sources since you don't believe anything is valid from British sources as you have stated several times- how minimal it was. In terms of the overall benefits or disadvantages of British rule for India certainly one can debate. Certainly the British needed to pay for the civil service and to maintain law and order, as well as infrastructure and other benefits. A bit challenging to imagine a continuation of the Mughal Empire would have been as beneficial as British rule.

3) Local knowledge that ignores evidence or logic is blind patriotism.

Morpeth as always I am unsure of the purpose of your posts!!

1) What do you think is the meaning of the words 'overseas citizen of India', I own property that you have previously complained that 'foreigners' can't., Before my husband ((Indian born and bred) decided to become British naturalised, to make travel in Europe easier, I was tax 'domiciled' as India. I am included in the census of our particular community. I have an Indian ID and benefit cards.
If India allowed full dual nationality -----what would you call me then?

You didn't answer my question above regarding the 'British' Cabinet Ministers who would be thought 'foreign' as they walked in London!! What are they?? Are the really British???

"Sought to blend in"!!!!!!! I presume you have sought to blend in with your family!!!!!:lol:

2) Yes after independence the railways and infrastructure were useful-as a 'start up'---what use before???? Indians were not allowed to use them except certain areas with permission!!!!
I have asked you this before why were the British there, if not for their own benefit ???? Statistics do not record the vast sums that were paid to Britain by the Princely States.
The 90% poverty wasn't particularly helpful!!

3) Could you explain how in your mind I can be 'patriotic' if I am a 'foreigner'???????


Expatrick Apr 28th 2020 8:42 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 
Bipat - What do you state as being your nationality on official forms? (Rhetorical question).

My situation - permanently resident in Hungary (5 years plus - no visits to UK since landing here). Tax resident in UK (whether I like it or not). Own property in Hungary, but not in UK. Possess Hungarian ID and health benefit cards.

But British, so over here, a foreigner.

nonthaburi Apr 28th 2020 9:13 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12845233)
Morpeth as always I am unsure of the purpose of your posts!!

1) What do you think is the meaning of the words 'overseas citizen of India', I own property that you have previously complained that 'foreigners' can't., Before my husband ((Indian born and bred) decided to become British naturalised, to make travel in Europe easier, I was tax 'domiciled' as India. I am included in the census of our particular community. I have an Indian ID and benefit cards.
If India allowed full dual nationality -----what would you call me then?

You didn't answer my question above regarding the 'British' Cabinet Ministers who would be thought 'foreign' as they walked in London!! What are they?? Are the really British???

"Sought to blend in"!!!!!!! I presume you have sought to blend in with your family!!!!!:lol:

2) Yes after independence the railways and infrastructure were useful-as a 'start up'---what use before???? Indians were not allowed to use them except certain areas with permission!!!!
I have asked you this before why were the British there, if not for their own benefit ???? Statistics do not record the vast sums that were paid to Britain by the Princely States.
The 90% poverty wasn't particularly helpful!!

3) Could you explain how in your mind I can be 'patriotic' if I am a 'foreigner'???????

They're more British than you are Indian due to the fact that they were born and raised in the UK, in Rishi Sunak's case it was his grandparents who came to the UK from the Punjab via East Africa, and in Pratel's case her parents fled Uganda.

You only have to hear them speak to know how British they are. Your wording suggests that all indigenous British view people with different coloured skin as foreigners. This is so out of touch with reality, in my experience of the UK anyway.

Generally speaking, where you are born and bred defines you culturally.

My own children are British, but they've only spent a total of 6 weeks there in their lives. They have a British passport but in no way are they culturally British, and they themselves would admit that . English was never their first language either.

Your seem to want to be more Indian than a real Indian. And by that I mean someone born an bred there.

Bipat Apr 28th 2020 9:23 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12845243)
Bipat - What do you state as being your nationality on official forms? (Rhetorical question).

My situation - permanently resident in Hungary (5 years plus - no visits to UK since landing here). Tax resident in UK (whether I like it or not). Own property in Hungary, but not in UK. Possess Hungarian ID and health benefit cards.But British, so over here, a foreigner.

I state British/ However in India---OCI ----
The latter was introduced as a 'fudge' to allow dual nationality without dual nationality!!!! Government trying to please both camps in the pro and against dual nationality controversy.

How do you as a Remainer explain the view of Morpeth an arch Remainer. That walking down the road in India I am obviously a "foreigner"-----(because I am pale).
What about all those 'dark' people in the UK? Are they all "foreigners"?

Expatrick Apr 28th 2020 9:34 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12845272)
I state British/ However in India---OCI ----
The latter was introduced as a 'fudge' to allow dual nationality without dual nationality!!!! Government trying to please both camps in the pro and against dual nationality controversy.

How do you as a Remainer explain the view of Morpeth an arch Remainer. That walking down the road in India I am obviously a "foreigner"-----(because I am pale).
What about all those 'dark' people in the UK? Are they all "foreigners"?

I cannot (will not) answer for Morpeth - however I can tell you that from a distance I am usually identified as British, my Wife (blond hair, blue eyes) always so. Confuses the hell out of the locals when we speak Hungarian!

Bit of a non issue really, I have no problem being a Brit in Hungary, and even when I take Hungarian citizenship will still be British, because that's what I am, as another said above, "born and bred".


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