Inglorious Empire

Old Sep 15th 2020, 4:11 pm
  #256  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
by all means demonstrate that India is a close ally with the UK.

Also India's voting record at the UN hardly supports the close ally description :“… since the early 2000s, India has enjoyed a relatively high level of agreement with Brazil, Russia, China and South Africa in its policy preferences at the UNGA…This suggests that in the recent policy convergence between BRICS, India’s positions have served as a common thread between its five member states…In the years 1994–2004, India's position first moved away from, and then towards the Western position in a relatively short span of time…, India has historically tended to side with Islamic states over Israel…On issues of economic development, India has long held consistent policy affinities with its emerging market peers, as evidenced by how it votes relative to the other BRICS nations…On human rights issues, India has voted closer to authoritarian states such as Russia and China…However, India’s position should not be interpreted as an acceptance of human rights violations, but rather as evidence for India’s policy of non-interference in the internal issues of other sovereign states, a position shared by Russia and China…The graphs presented above, derived from voting history at the UNGA, present a long-term picture of Indian foreign policy that offers several concrete conclusions about the dynamic nature of the country’s policy preferences…The overall picture that emerges from the data is that India has held broadly consistent policy positions throughout the history of its membership in the UN, a rarity among other prominent non-Western nations…It further suggests that India’s national policy preferences are an excellent fit with the policy preferences of other emerging and developing nations…”

ORF Issue Brief, July 2017, Issue 192
Your quote 2017.

2019.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/india-...ies-un/5680392

As I pointed out to you alliances/relationships change.

https://gellerreport.com/2019/06/isr...elarions.html/

2020
Apart from trade ---notice the words "strong and enduring bond" and it hasn't changed. (Certainly these words Morpeth only mean anything to you if they don't refer to India and UK!)
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...g-relationship
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Old Sep 15th 2020, 7:25 pm
  #257  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
Your quote 2017.

2019.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/india-...ies-un/5680392

As I pointed out to you alliances/relationships change.

https://gellerreport.com/2019/06/isr...elarions.html/

2020
Apart from trade ---notice the words "strong and enduring bond" and it hasn't changed. (Certainly these words Morpeth only mean anything to you if they don't refer to India and UK!)
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...g-relationship
As usual you posts do not address the specific issues.

We were discussing the nonsense comment that India and the UK are close allies and for that matter if longstanding ones. Not once have you presented a shred of evidence that there is a military alliance between the two countries.

I post from an analysis from several decades of UN voting records- which did indicate the record is mixed except pointing out generally India has been more supportive of non Western regimes and certainly not exhibiting aspects of a close alliance with the UK, and not even counting its position on Diego Garcia over the years. That general relations can change no one denies and what I posted confirms the same- but doesn't mean India is a close ally. Using your logic if the UK agrees to built tank turrets in Bolivia and conduct a show exercise that constitutes a close ally.

You seem unaware of buzz words and diplomatic parlance governments use such as partnerships or sustainable and the like.The UK has a strong and enduring bond with Jamaica as well- no one would say Jamaica a close ally. Perhaps you are not familiar with diplomatic language, and obviously the British government will say things to make India feel good to promote arms sales-yet I bet that procurement agreement will end up to Indias advantage and wisely Modi seeks to build international support.

I can easily be proved wrong-is there a shred of evidence of a military alliance between the UK and India ?Anecdotally I have had and have family members in the UK,Australian and American armed forces who have fought together and have described to me the ongoing close military cooperation; America has personnel based in Australia and the UK, UK and American personnel share facilities around the world; do you know some secret base India and the UK share ? Would anyone in their right mind believe India would ever come to the defense of the UK ?

If you have no evidence to respond with directly to the issue and just prefer to believe nonsense I am not sure what can be added.
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Old Sep 15th 2020, 9:20 pm
  #258  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
As usual you posts do not address the specific issues.

We were discussing the nonsense comment that India and the UK are close allies and for that matter if longstanding ones. Not once have you presented a shred of evidence that there is a military alliance between the two countries.

I post from an analysis from several decades of UN voting records- which did indicate the record is mixed except pointing out generally India has been more supportive of non Western regimes and certainly not exhibiting aspects of a close alliance with the UK, and not even counting its position on Diego Garcia over the years. That general relations can change no one denies and what I posted confirms the same- but doesn't mean India is a close ally. Using your logic if the UK agrees to built tank turrets in Bolivia and conduct a show exercise that constitutes a close ally.

You seem unaware of buzz words and diplomatic parlance governments use such as partnerships or sustainable and the like.The UK has a strong and enduring bond with Jamaica as well- no one would say Jamaica a close ally. Perhaps you are not familiar with diplomatic language, and obviously the British government will say things to make India feel good to promote arms sales-yet I bet that procurement agreement will end up to Indias advantage and wisely Modi seeks to build international support.

I can easily be proved wrong-is there a shred of evidence of a military alliance between the UK and India ?Anecdotally I have had and have family members in the UK,Australian and American armed forces who have fought together and have described to me the ongoing close military cooperation; America has personnel based in Australia and the UK, UK and American personnel share facilities around the world; do you know some secret base India and the UK share ? Would anyone in their right mind believe India would ever come to the defense of the UK ?

If you have no evidence to respond with directly to the issue and just prefer to believe nonsense I am not sure what can be added.

Your posts----you ignore the fact that you are so often wrong. Israel just one example.

"Collaboration"-- "Combat emerging threats"--"Deeper and broader partnerships" etc. Just Buzz words !
I did not use the words "military" allies. I posted you various meaning of the word 'ally'.
Perhaps you can accept that at least they are not enemies without causing yourself too much distress!

Maritime 'partnership' for example.

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/...me%20event.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...ty-partnership

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-india-strengthen-defence-ties-with-new-agreement



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Old Sep 16th 2020, 7:42 am
  #259  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
Your posts----you ignore the fact that you are so often wrong. Israel just one example.

"Collaboration"-- "Combat emerging threats"--"Deeper and broader partnerships" etc. Just Buzz words !
I did not use the words "military" allies. I posted you various meaning of the word 'ally'.
Perhaps you can accept that at least they are not enemies without causing yourself too much distress!

Maritime 'partnership' for example.

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/...me%20event.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...ty-partnership

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-india-strengthen-defence-ties-with-new-agreement
if you read the material posted it says quite clearly the India hasnt been uniformly anti-western but generally so.

By your definition of close ally so is Jamaica, and again procurement arrangements are not evidence of being close allies; the same cooperation you describe could be attributed to so many countries it makes the definition of close ally meaningless.

No distress I just fine your way of thinking very interesting it complete avoidance or logic when called out for posting nonsense.
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Old Sep 16th 2020, 8:19 am
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
1) if you read the material posted it says quite clearly the India hasnt been uniformly anti-western but generally so.

2) By your definition of close ally so is Jamaica, and 3) again procurement arrangements are not evidence of being close allies; the same cooperation you describe could be attributed to so many countries it makes the definition of close ally meaningless.

No distress I just fine your way of thinking very interesting it complete avoidance or logic when called out for 4) posting nonsense.
1) We are discussing present day 'association' with the UK! It is not surprising that in the past a country oppressed by an Empire ruler would have people that were 'against' the ruling country. Also the UK is not 'THE West'.

2) UK does have a good relationship with Jamaica. Similar colonial history but now Commonwealth.

3) Suggest you look up the word "procurement" in a dictionary.

'Bilateral defence cooperation endeavours', 'maritime partnership', 'international security partnership, ' 'defence ties' are not "procurement"



4) I do wonder your motive for the continual negativity regarding a particular country. (The Empire is finished Morpeth---get over it!)




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Old Sep 17th 2020, 6:47 am
  #261  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) We are discussing present day 'association' with the UK! It is not surprising that in the past a country oppressed by an Empire ruler would have people that were 'against' the ruling country. Also the UK is not 'THE West'.

2) UK does have a good relationship with Jamaica. Similar colonial history but now Commonwealth.

3) Suggest you look up the word "procurement" in a dictionary.

'Bilateral defence cooperation endeavours', 'maritime partnership', 'international security partnership, ' 'defence ties' are not "procurement"



4) I do wonder your motive for the continual negativity regarding a particular country. (The Empire is finished Morpeth---get over it!)
First you describe India as a close ally and post link to an agreement which is clearly a procurement agreement
Then refer to some military connections which do not reach the level of 'close ally'.
The new one is 'well things have changed, implying some dramatic change meaning now India a close ally
I point out just one example Jamaica that by your definition would be considered as 'close ally ' as well
None of the agreements you refer to are 'close ally' relationships.
The only person over time who wishes to bring up who initially brings up the Empire is yourself- the person who should get over it not me, or people who blame the British on everything though I understand you wish to fit in with your adopted country

I have an interest in many countries and like to learn,.and since you decided to take the India point of view and live there, your on the ground observations certainly interesting, but there is nothing wrong with questioning opinions or pointing out nonsense.If you do not understand what a procurement agreement is, or common English understanding of what 'close ally' means,

Sorry again to contradict you, by all accounts the United Kingdom is part of Western Civilization, and commonly referred to as part of the West..

Of course if here is some secret agreement the world is unaware of indicating India has all of a sudden become a 'close ally' by all means let us know.


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Old Sep 17th 2020, 8:35 am
  #262  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
1)First you describe India as a close ally and post link to an agreement which is clearly a procurement agreement
2) Then refer to some military connections which do not reach the level of 'close ally'.
The new one is 'well things have changed, implying some dramatic change meaning now India a close ally
3) I point out just one example Jamaica that by your definition would be considered as 'close ally ' as well
None of the agreements you refer to are 'close ally' relationships.
4) The only person over time who wishes to bring up who initially brings up the Empire is yourself- the person who should get over it not me, or people who blame the British on everything 5)though I understand you wish to fit in with your adopted country

I have an interest in many countries and like to learn,.and since you decided to take the India point of view and live there, your on the ground observations certainly interesting, but there is nothing wrong with questioning opinions or pointing out nonsense.
6) If you do not understand what a procurement agreement is, or common English understanding of what 'close ally' means,

7) Sorry again to contradict you, by all accounts the United Kingdom is part of Western Civilization, and commonly referred to as part of the West..

Of course if here is some secret agreement the world is unaware of indicating India has all of a sudden become a 'close ally' by all means let us know.

4) Read the title of the thread.

1) 2) Different points in different posts!

3) Why bring in Jamaica? Two totally different countries.

5) Yet again the same 'nonsense' ----I don't have to "fit in" anywhere. I haven't "adopted" a country, I just happen to 'belong' in two countries.

6) Morpeth you are obsessed with the word "procurement"---get yourself a dictionary. "Bilateral defence cooperation", "maritime partnership", "international security partnership", defence ties"----are not examples of "procurement".

7) Yes "part" of the West not "THE WEST" ---it might surprise you to know that there are several DIFFERENT countries that comprise THE WEST.
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Old Sep 17th 2020, 2:01 pm
  #263  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
4) Read the title of the thread.

1) 2) Different points in different posts!

3) Why bring in Jamaica? Two totally different countries.

5) Yet again the same 'nonsense' ----I don't have to "fit in" anywhere. I haven't "adopted" a country, I just happen to 'belong' in two countries.

6) Morpeth you are obsessed with the word "procurement"---get yourself a dictionary. "Bilateral defence cooperation", "maritime partnership", "international security partnership", defence ties"----are not examples of "procurement".

7) Yes "part" of the West not "THE WEST" ---it might surprise you to know that there are several DIFFERENT countries that comprise THE WEST.
You started by using a clearly procurement agreement as evidence close ally status.

Jamaica as as much a close ally than India.

The UK has several close allies which can be supported by military alliances, intelligence sharing agreements at the level of the "five eyes" agreement, close cooperation in a variety of endeavors including diplomatic support, let alone shared culture and so forth.

You have not provided any evidence that India is close ally in the past pr today.By all means if you have evidence that indicates India has a relationship that approaches that of the close allies let us know


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Old Sep 18th 2020, 10:55 am
  #264  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
4) Read the title of the thread.

1) 2) Different points in different posts!

3) Why bring in Jamaica? Two totally different countries.

5) Yet again the same 'nonsense' ----I don't have to "fit in" anywhere. I haven't "adopted" a country, I just happen to 'belong' in two countries.

6) Morpeth you are obsessed with the word "procurement"---get yourself a dictionary. "Bilateral defence cooperation", "maritime partnership", "international security partnership", defence ties"----are not examples of "procurement".

7) Yes "part" of the West not "THE WEST" ---it might surprise you to know that there are several DIFFERENT countries that comprise THE WEST.
Hi Bipat, I was reading an article about the Corona situation in India which stated that Modi is receiving much more local support and less criticism than leaders in the developed countries.what is the general view in India these days ?
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Old Sep 18th 2020, 11:15 am
  #265  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
Hi Bipat, I was reading an article about the Corona situation in India which stated that Modi is receiving much more local support and less criticism than leaders in the developed countries.what is the general view in India these days ?
Possibly yes. Most criticism is for particular State leaders (Bihar for example) and for religious groups who will not obey the 'lockdown' rules. (See the Goa thread). So spikes at the moment.
Modi was ahead of most countries in a very strict lockdown but made mistakes regarding underestimating the number of city poor returning to villages.
India are ahead with vaccine production as I have explained to you before, also drug treatment for hospital patients so death rates relatively low in many States.

* End of March we had one of the last flights out--masks, temperature checks outside and in at Mumbai airport----arrived in Birmingham UK----nothing!



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Old Sep 18th 2020, 12:52 pm
  #266  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
Possibly yes. Most criticism is for particular State leaders (Bihar for example) and for religious groups who will not obey the 'lockdown' rules. (See the Goa thread). So spikes at the moment.
Modi was ahead of most countries in a very strict lockdown but made mistakes regarding underestimating the number of city poor returning to villages.
India are ahead with vaccine production as I have explained to you before, also drug treatment for hospital patients so death rates relatively low in many States.

* End of March we had one of the last flights out--masks, temperature checks outside and in at Mumbai airport----arrived in Birmingham UK----nothing!
Thanks for the update.
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Old Sep 27th 2020, 1:13 am
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

According to my friend Gerry Hassan, the Empire may be dead, but it lives on in the delusional minds of many - https://www.scottishreview.net/GerryHassan539a.html
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Old Sep 28th 2020, 4:59 pm
  #268  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by scot47
According to my friend Gerry Hassan, the Empire may be dead, but it lives on in the delusional minds of many - https://www.scottishreview.net/GerryHassan539a.html
Thank you for a very interesting article. I'll be sending of copy of that to my son for sure, who in spite of being mainly educated in France, comes across as being as English as Basil Fawlty or a jar of Marmite.
He had just the one year of education in England, truly loved it with some remarkable memories of cricket, playing in a brass-band, fish&chips and the 'Carry-On' films. So it came as a great surprise to us on learning that he was pro-Brexit.
On a similar theme of yours to what was never taught in schools about the British Empire, and the harsh reality of Indian war, I thought back to a very entertaining documentary I watched a short while back. Billy Connelly undercovers his ancestors in the series, Who Do You Think You Are?
The following are links to the YTube episodes. All are worth watching but the 4th is particularly harrowing!












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Old Sep 30th 2020, 9:49 am
  #269  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

They've gone after Amnesty International.
“Treating human rights organisations like criminal enterprises and dissenting individuals as criminals without any credible evidence is a deliberate attempt by the Enforcement Directorate and Government of India to stoke a climate of fear and dismantle the critical voices in India."
https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/a...nt-of-india-2/
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Old Sep 30th 2020, 10:38 am
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by caretaker
They've gone after Amnesty International.
“Treating human rights organisations like criminal enterprises and dissenting individuals as criminals without any credible evidence is a deliberate attempt by the Enforcement Directorate and Government of India to stoke a climate of fear and dismantle the critical voices in India."
https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/a...nt-of-india-2/

There have been problems in India with organisations such as Amnesty not understanding particular complex situations such as Pakistan and Kashmir border, and taking verbatim what the opposition party reports. (The latter in total disarray--much like UK Lib Dems!) Also difficulties with their collection of data.
Obviously with terrorism and border incursions Indian army have probably violated human rights on occasions and no excuse.

Amnesty have their own problems.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-report-finds

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