Inglorious Empire

Old Sep 12th 2020, 5:15 pm
  #241  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Expatrick
The point was, not about costs (God knows why you thought it was) but about India sharing the details / specifications / performance data, etc of the (licensed built) SU 30s in service with the IAF, with its close ally, the UK.
You are the aviation expert-----has UK asked? There seems to be a lot of information about the planes on-line!
Israel, France systems seem to be involved, recently.

(India's purchases of planes seems always to consider cost.)

Joint exercise with UK in 2007
https://www.flightglobal.com/picture-indian-air-force-sukhoi-su-30s-arrive-in-the-uk/74882.article#:~:text=Six%20Indian%20air%20force%2 0Sukhoi,the%20facility%20from%20early%20July.
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Old Sep 12th 2020, 8:34 pm
  #242  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
You are the aviation expert
Oh I couldn't possibly compete with someone who derives their expertise from living 10 miles from a naval base!
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Old Sep 12th 2020, 9:04 pm
  #243  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Expatrick
Oh I couldn't possibly compete with someone who derives their expertise from living 10 miles from a naval base!
Why the sarcasm?----I asked you your opinion!
Why did you ask the question? --I put published links. I do daily read local newspapers and watch local TV.

Yes obviously I know about 'wretched' Seabird---
-A bus carrying staff goes past our house each morning. The villagers displaced who waited years for compensation. (Nirmala Sitharaman put that right---new finance Minister).
The horror of the miles of fence hiding the beautiful sea coast. They originally said their airstrip would be changed into a public airport---(As present Goa airport will be eventually---totally naval.) It hasn't happened. Would have been really useful.
The sailors (Indian) are in local shops and computer shops.

I ask again why the sarcasm? I asked you a question but no answer.
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Old Sep 13th 2020, 9:56 pm
  #244  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
Military alliances vary over the years and according to what is happening at the time. UNPROFOR, Afghan war etc.
There is no military alliance between India and the UK. By any analysis the close allies of the UK do not include India. No support for this sheer nonsense except reference to a procurement agreement.Even the military agreements with Singapore are a closer relationship for the UK than India.

As far as I can see- and by all means you are welcome to address with evidence India is not a member of any major military alliance,- One consultation agreement is : ", That’s all very cozy, but it is far short of a real military alliance. The democratic Quad (the name comes from the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue, set up between Australia, India, the United States, and Japan in 2007 as an informal consultation mechanism) is still more an aspiration than a reality."

India does have several military procurement arrangements, with Japan apparently a more advanced one with a new agreement signed this year.

Another source states "
Since India enjoys no automatic or unconditional military guarantees from the US or any other country "
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Old Sep 14th 2020, 8:21 am
  #245  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
There is no military alliance between India and the UK. By any analysis the close allies of the UK do not include India. No support for this sheer nonsense except reference to a procurement agreement.Even the military agreements with Singapore are a closer relationship for the UK than India.

As far as I can see- and by all means you are welcome to address with evidence India is not a member of any major military alliance,- One consultation agreement is : ", That’s all very cozy, but it is far short of a real military alliance. The democratic Quad (the name comes from the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue, set up between Australia, India, the United States, and Japan in 2007 as an informal consultation mechanism) is still more an aspiration than a reality."

India does have several military procurement arrangements, with Japan apparently a more advanced one with a new agreement signed this year.

Another source states "
Since India enjoys no automatic or unconditional military guarantees from the US or any other country "
Morpeth you always choose use word definitions to find a way of denying any positive relationship between India and he UK! The words 'ally', 'alliance' --examples.
Military alliances always depend on what is 'happening' at the time.
No ---India has no official military 'alliances' but use the words combined 'military exercises' there are many---biennial with UK---'joint military training'.

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2013...a-warrior.html

https://www.business-standard.com/ar...1001537_1.html
(Defence Cooperation)

(India 5th largest troop supplier to UN peace keeping force.)

Last edited by Bipat; Sep 14th 2020 at 9:14 am.
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Old Sep 14th 2020, 3:43 pm
  #246  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth you always choose use word definitions to find a way of denying any positive relationship between India and he UK! The words 'ally', 'alliance' --examples.
Military alliances always depend on what is 'happening' at the time.
No ---India has no official military 'alliances' but use the words combined 'military exercises' there are many---biennial with UK---'joint military training'.

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2013...a-warrior.html

https://www.business-standard.com/ar...1001537_1.html
(Defence Cooperation)

(India 5th largest troop supplier to UN peace keeping force.)
No Bipat I just use common sense, normal English, and try to have some evidence and logic in opinions.This isnt to say there is a negative political relationship between the two countries any more than the UK has with other third world countries whether India or Nigeria. But saying India is a 'close ally; is simply nonsense.You know this because when I gave examples of closer relations he UK has India doesnt even reach Singapore levels.

Of course as facts show the economic relationship the UK has with India is without a doubt based on all evidence a net negative for the UK,

I must say though I am quite impressed with Modi's foreign policy getting countries such as Russia,USA and Japan all leaning his way.
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Old Sep 14th 2020, 4:23 pm
  #247  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
No Bipat I just use common sense, normal English, and try to have some evidence and logic in opinions.This isnt to say there is a negative political relationship between the two countries any more than the UK has with other third world countries whether India or Nigeria. But saying India is a 'close ally; is simply nonsense.You know this because when I gave examples of closer relations he UK has India doesnt even reach Singapore levels.

Of course as facts show the economic relationship the UK has with India is without a doubt based on all evidence a net negative for the UK,

I must say though I am quite impressed with Modi's foreign policy getting countries such as Russia,USA and Japan all leaning his way.

So bi-annual military troop training, "bilateral defence cooperation endeavours between the two countries"-- doesn't count as positive?

? Some later news.
https://www.businessinsider.in/defen...w/78110170.cms


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Old Sep 14th 2020, 11:21 pm
  #248  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
So bi-annual military troop training, "bilateral defence cooperation endeavours between the two countries"-- doesn't count as positive?

? Some later news.
https://www.businessinsider.in/defen...w/78110170.cms
Again you claimed India was a close ally of the UK, which I have pointed out is simply nonsense.

I am not sure whether the procurement initiatives a positive or negative, but again if even singapore has an actual military agreement in which it and the UK a party, the ide that India is a close ally of the UK is just more nonsense. However if there is some secret close military partnership you know please do enlighten us.
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Old Sep 15th 2020, 8:43 am
  #249  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
Again you claimed India was a close ally of the UK, which I have pointed out is simply nonsense.

I am not sure whether the procurement initiatives a positive or negative, but again if even singapore has an actual military agreement in which it and the UK a party, the ide that India is a close ally of the UK is just more nonsense. However if there is some secret close military partnership you know please do enlighten us.
Morpeth I realise that the reason for these prolonged discussions is that you refuse to actually read posts.
Joint regular military exercises in both countries are not "procurement".

I will put another link as you did not read the others. Post 245
Note the words "long standing strategic ties".

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/74121564.cms

India does not have an ongoing "military" alliance with any country.
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Old Sep 15th 2020, 10:47 am
  #250  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth I realise that the reason for these prolonged discussions is that you refuse to actually read posts.
Joint regular military exercises in both countries are not "procurement".

I will put another link as you did not read the others. Post 245
Note the words "long standing strategic ties".

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/74121564.cms

India does not have an ongoing "military" alliance with any country.
I read all your links, the problem is rarely do they support the nonsense conclusions.

First as you acknowledge India has no military alliance with the UK, hardly does this approach meaning India being a close ally of the UK.
Second, the US,Canada and Russia had a series of military exercises in the 2008-2012 period, no one would claim Russia was an ally of the United States. In fact there was a cooperation between Russia and USA in various anti-terrorism issues.

The difference is you start with some crazy idea, then using the popular press look for somewhat related information to support the idea without considering logic..

Everyone can make mistakes except those who refuse to consider logic and evidence seem to have difficulty admitting error.


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Old Sep 15th 2020, 10:49 am
  #251  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth I realise that the reason for these prolonged discussions is that you refuse to actually read posts.
Joint regular military exercises in both countries are not "procurement".

I will put another link as you did not read the others. Post 245
Note the words "long standing strategic ties".

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/74121564.cms

India does not have an ongoing "military" alliance with any country.
You referred specifically to an agreement to support your contention that was clearly a procurement agreement.

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Old Sep 15th 2020, 11:10 am
  #252  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
I read all your links, the problem is rarely do they support the nonsense conclusions.

First as you acknowledge India has no military alliance with the UK, hardly does this approach meaning India being a close ally of the UK.
Second, the US,Canada and Russia had a series of military exercises in the 2008-2012 period, no one would claim Russia was an ally of the United States. In fact there was a cooperation between Russia and USA in various anti-terrorism issues.

The difference is you start with some crazy idea, then using the popular press look for somewhat related information to support the idea without considering logic..

Everyone can make mistakes except those who refuse to consider logic and evidence seem to have difficulty admitting error.
Admit mistakes? what mistakes? Morpeth really? do you ever admit your consistent prejudice?

Are ongoing military exercises "procurement"-?--your mistaken conclusion.
Is it just popular press? Are you saying that the combined military exercises have not been happening over the last 5 years?

Long standing strategic ties---a statement-of course you ignore.

You persist in a narrow definition of the word "ally".
I said that India had NO ongoing 'military' alliances. --You could read in the links joint exercise training regarding any future insurgences ---

(Indian rockets send up UK satellites ------that should get you going for some more negativity!)
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Old Sep 15th 2020, 11:24 am
  #253  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by morpeth
You referred specifically to an agreement to support your contention that was clearly a procurement agreement.
The trade agreements regarding arms were many posts back. Came on the day of the Rafale planes being delivered from France, when there were posts regarding a 'relationship' with Russia.
Is the word "relationship" allowed?

.https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ally

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Old Sep 15th 2020, 2:40 pm
  #254  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
Admit mistakes? what mistakes? Morpeth really? do you ever admit your consistent prejudice?

Are ongoing military exercises "procurement"-?--your mistaken conclusion.
Is it just popular press? Are you saying that the combined military exercises have not been happening over the last 5 years?

Long standing strategic ties---a statement-of course you ignore.

You persist in a narrow definition of the word "ally".
I said that India had NO ongoing 'military' alliances. --You could read in the links joint exercise training regarding any future insurgences ---

(Indian rockets send up UK satellites ------that should get you going for some more negativity!)
Read your own posts as well as mine with more attention,otherwise just wasting time.

You referred to a procurement agreement as evidence to the close ally status.
Military exercises do not always demonstrate close military alliance as I demonstrated
Politician statements or fluff like "Long standing strategic ties" hardly prove anything- whats is an issue is evidence. Please demonstrate what military alliance indicates between the UK and India."long standing" since when ?
"narrow definition"? you wrote close ally- yet India doesn't remotely meet the characteristics of the UK's closest allies- and instead of evidence, as you usual you end up throwing out words like prejudice.




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Old Sep 15th 2020, 3:22 pm
  #255  
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Default Re: Inglorious Empire

Originally Posted by Bipat
The trade agreements regarding arms were many posts back. Came on the day of the Rafale planes being delivered from France, when there were posts regarding a 'relationship' with Russia.
Is the word "relationship" allowed?

.https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ally
by all means demonstrate that India is a close ally with the UK.

Also India's voting record at the UN hardly supports the close ally description :“… since the early 2000s, India has enjoyed a relatively high level of agreement with Brazil, Russia, China and South Africa in its policy preferences at the UNGA…This suggests that in the recent policy convergence between BRICS, India’s positions have served as a common thread between its five member states…In the years 1994–2004, India's position first moved away from, and then towards the Western position in a relatively short span of time…, India has historically tended to side with Islamic states over Israel…On issues of economic development, India has long held consistent policy affinities with its emerging market peers, as evidenced by how it votes relative to the other BRICS nations…On human rights issues, India has voted closer to authoritarian states such as Russia and China…However, India’s position should not be interpreted as an acceptance of human rights violations, but rather as evidence for India’s policy of non-interference in the internal issues of other sovereign states, a position shared by Russia and China…The graphs presented above, derived from voting history at the UNGA, present a long-term picture of Indian foreign policy that offers several concrete conclusions about the dynamic nature of the country’s policy preferences…The overall picture that emerges from the data is that India has held broadly consistent policy positions throughout the history of its membership in the UN, a rarity among other prominent non-Western nations…It further suggests that India’s national policy preferences are an excellent fit with the policy preferences of other emerging and developing nations…”

ORF Issue Brief, July 2017, Issue 192
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