India and the Wars

Old Mar 8th 2019, 11:24 am
  #646  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR obviously an act which causes multiple deaths is more serious.
Rape and or cruelty to a child before killing is difficult to even think about. (The torture and murder of little Daniel Pelka is a crime I find difficult to forget).
These atrocities happen in wars and peacetime and can happen in many countries.
What do you mean by Just a crime?

EMR what is your purpose in these posts?
I find it odd and a little disturbing that you ignore events in India, you ignore the little Indian girls subjected to horrific acts for being the wrong group or religion but for some reason refer to events in the UK
You just cannot bring yourself to condemn attacks in India on those who do not share the beliefs of the majority..
I wonder why...
My purpose is obviously failing, that trying to get you to open your eyes to reality.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 6:40 pm
  #647  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
I find it odd and a little disturbing that you ignore events in India, you ignore the little Indian girls subjected to horrific acts for being the wrong group or religion but for some reason refer to events in the UK
You just cannot bring yourself to condemn attacks in India on those who do not share the beliefs of the majority..
I wonder why...
My purpose is obviously failing, that trying to get you to open your eyes to reality.
EMR I know what you are doing!
You seem to have this ambition to criticise anything to do with India, as though it is the only country in the world where horrific acts happen.
Of course I condemn rape of little girls in India. Of course of course I condemn religious violence. Rape of a child is rape regardless of religion.

However I also condemn rape of little girls and babies in the UK. Grooming, rape and abuse of older vulnerable girls. Cruelty and abuse in any form, in any country regardless of religion or no religion.


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Old Mar 8th 2019, 8:01 pm
  #648  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR I know what you are doing!
You seem to have this ambition to criticise anything to do with India, as though it is the only country in the world where horrific acts happen.
Of course I condemn rape of little girls in India. Of course of course I condemn religious violence. Rape of a child is rape regardless of religion.

However I also condemn rape of little girls and babies in the UK. Grooming, rape and abuse of older vulnerable girls. Cruelty and abuse in any form, in any country regardless of religion or no religion.
So why did you accuse the BBC of bias when it along with other international news agencies runs stories that reveal what goes on in India,
Once again I am not criticising India but your myopia or inability to deal with facts..
You seem to think that religion and cultural differences if not justification are an excuse for these acts.
We have discussed at great length what happens in the UK on various threads.no one accuses any one else for being anti UK for condemning them.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 8:38 pm
  #649  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
So why did you accuse the BBC of bias when it along with other international news agencies runs stories that reveal what goes on in India,
Once again I am not criticising India but your myopia or inability to deal with facts..
You seem to think that religion and cultural differences if not justification are an excuse for these acts.
We have discussed at great length what happens in the UK on various threads.no one accuses any one else for being anti UK for condemning them.
I accuse the BBC of bias because they do just what YOU are doing. "What goes on in India"---India has a free press so everything that goes on is known unlike other massive population countries such as China.
I pointed out that once again the BBC had shown that particular programme about rape statistics in India when in actual FACT statistics are worse in UK and USA (I put a link which you ignored). Why, why did they produce that programme again on the day that India suffered the worst terrorist attack for 40 years?

EMR how many times to tell you there is no excuse or justification for rape or violent crime in in ANY country.



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Old Mar 8th 2019, 8:59 pm
  #650  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
I accuse the BBC of bias because they do just what YOU are doing. "What goes on in India"---India has a free press so everything that goes on is known unlike other massive population countries such as China.
I pointed out that once again the BBC had shown that particular programme about rape statistics in India when in actual FACT statistics are worse in UK and USA (I put a link which you ignored). Why, why did they produce that programme again on the day that India suffered the worst terrorist attack for 40 years?

EMR how many times to tell you there is no excuse or justification for rape or violent crime in in ANY country.
Then I hope you no longer support and convince others not to vote for a party any party whose senior members encourage attacks on those who do not follow their beliefs and pratices and obstruct investigations into the type of crime we are discussing.
Have you and your family joined the demonstrations opposing violence against women , which had to have police protection.
Once again your grasp on reality is slipping suggesting conspiracy in the BBC.
The attack in Kashmir was in all the news on the day with background explanations.
Of course having reasons for the conflict explained would be the last thing you want...
How many innocent Kashmiris shot by the security forces in the last 40 years, or do they not count in your world..
One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Were those who set of bombs , shot officials during India's fight for independence, terrorists or freedom fighters...





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Old Mar 8th 2019, 9:27 pm
  #651  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Then I hope you no longer support and convince others not to vote for a party any party whose senior members encourage attacks on those who do not follow their beliefs and pratices and obstruct investigations into the type of crime we are discussing.
Have you and your family joined the demonstrations opposing violence against women , which had to have police protection.
Once again your grasp on reality is slipping suggesting conspiracy in the BBC.
The attack in Kashmir was in all the news on the day with background explanations.
Of course having reasons for the conflict explained would be the last thing you want...
How many innocent Kashmiris shot by the security forces in the last 40 years, or do they not count in your world..
One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Were those who set of bombs , shot officials during India's fight for independence, terrorists or freedom fighters...
EMR the party seniors who obstructed investigations into attacks were immediately 'sacked'. Such attacks are condemned by the government and the opposition.
What "beliefs and practices" are you referring to????

The present government is the one who introduced the Bill to ban the Triple Talaq----votes by Muslim women for the government have increased. over the years.

There have been no demonstrations in any area which I have been!
Have you demonstrated against any atrocity in the UK?????

I did not say there was a conspiracy at the BBC -----I said there was bias.
Apparently also regarding the terrorist attack, a correspondent gave the views of both India and Pakistan ---the BBC broadcast only the Pakistan view and 'cut' the Indian view. I will find a link.

EMR everyone condemns the violence in Kashmir and the deaths. Why do you EMR ignore the majority that wish to remain with India. Don't you see that a third of the people wanting separation are a number enough to cause major violence.

I have seen reports that Imran Khan has said he is going to do something about terrorism, let us hope the army allows it!. The international community condemns Pakistan however one person on this Forum EMR apparently supports it!

"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter", that is the most heinous thing you have said.
Is that how you describe bombs on aircraft?
Is that how you describe the terrorist attacks in London, Europe and USA?
Is that how you describe the bombs on the tourist areas in Mumbai and Pune????





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Old Mar 8th 2019, 9:46 pm
  #652  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR the party seniors who obstructed investigations into attacks were immediately 'sacked'. Such attacks are condemned by the government and the opposition.
What "beliefs and practices" are you referring to????

The present government is the one who introduced the Bill to ban the Triple Talaq----votes by Muslim women for the government have increased. over the years.

There have been no demonstrations in any area which I have been!
Have you demonstrated against any atrocity in the UK?????

I did not say there was a conspiracy at the BBC -----I said there was bias.
Apparently also regarding the terrorist attack, a correspondent gave the views of both India and Pakistan ---the BBC broadcast only the Pakistan view and 'cut' the Indian view. I will find a link.

EMR everyone condemns the violence in Kashmir and the deaths. Why do you EMR ignore the majority that wish to remain with India. Don't you see that a third of the people wanting separation are a number enough to cause major violence.

I have seen reports that Imran Khan has said he is going to do something about terrorism, let us hope the army allows it!. The international community condemns Pakistan however one person on this Forum EMR apparently supports it!

"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter", that is the most heinous thing you have said.
Is that how you describe bombs on aircraft?
Is that how you describe the terrorist attacks in London, Europe and USA?
Is that how you describe the bombs on the tourist areas in Mumbai and Pune????
I ask you the question again, where those who carried out attacks during British rule terrorists or freedom fighters..

.
The last demo I went on was against the second Iraq war, yes that was an atrocity.

Practices and beliefs, you are having A thick day, , eating beef, different caste or religion. ,or do the motives of the attackers and the identity of the victims not matter to you.., it was in the news and in the papers.

We are discussing the attack in Kashmir against those regarded by millions as the occupying military force.
.If you regard Indian terrorists pre 1947 as freedom fighters then so are those who are fighting for self determination and freedom from India in Kashmir.
But of course you will not, you are the queen of double standards.
One mans terrorist is another man's Freedom fighter.
What was Nelson Mandela, terrorist , jailed for terrorism , terrorist or freedom fighter, you chose..

You must live in la la land I heard and saw Interview after interview with Indian ministers on all the UK news outlets.
I bet only one side was shown in India and Pakistan ?

Stop lieing and rambling, I do not support it, I understand why it is happening., the reasons, the historical background..
You are conflating understanding for the reasons with support for the act.
I realise that it will keep happening probably until the end of time.

The entire human rights community has condemned India's actions in Kashmir, for decades , so I am happy to agree with them not you..







Last edited by EMR; Mar 8th 2019 at 10:06 pm.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 10:21 pm
  #653  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
I ask you the question again, where those who carried out attacks during British rule terrorists or freedom fighters..

We are discussing the attack in Kashmir against those regarded by millions as the occupying military force.
.If you regard Indian terrorists pre 1947 as freedom fighters then so are those who are fighting for self determination and freedom from India in Kashmir.
But of course you will not, you are the queen of double standards.
One mans terrorist is another Freedom fighter.
What was Nelson Mandela, terrorist , jailed for terrorism , terrorist or freedom fighter, you chose..

You must live in la la land I heard and saw Interview after interview with Indian ministers on all the UK news outlets.
I bet only one side was shown in India and Pakistan ?

Stop lieing and rambling, I do not support it, I understand why it is happening., the reasons, the historical background..
I realise that it will keep happening probably until the end of time.

The entire human rights community has condemned India's actions in Kashmir, for decades , so I am happy to agree with them not you..
I will ask you some questions EMR?

When were you last in Kashmir. When did you last speak to a Kashmiri citizen?
How did Pakistan get control of half the State?
Why do you ignore the wishes of the majority of Kashmiris in India controlled Kashmir; why do you ignore their suffering?

Human rights Committee have condemned various actions of the Indian army, not the rights of the majority of Kashmiris to decide to remain an Indian State.
As I said the international Community have condemned Pakistan for harbouring terrorists. Terrorists that cause deaths world-wide not just in Kashmir.

DO NOT accuse me of lying. I have told you I will provide links to what I have said---

You still did not answer the question about your rambling in your first post this morning.

What beliefs and practises were you referring to that you say causes political parties to support violence?
EMR do you ever answer questions about your posts.



(Apologies unable to re-find the link regarding the BBC. However found this regarding terrorism which I am sure you will discount being USA)

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world...lnAdqxXbJ.html






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Old Mar 8th 2019, 10:32 pm
  #654  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
I ask you the question again, where those who carried out attacks during British rule terrorists or freedom fighters..

.
The last demo I went on was against the second Iraq war, yes that was an atrocity.

Practices and beliefs, you are having A thick day, , eating beef, different caste or religion. ,or do the motives of the attackers and the identity of the victims not matter to you.., it was in the news and in the papers.

We are discussing the attack in Kashmir against those regarded by millions as the occupying military force.
.If you regard Indian terrorists pre 1947 as freedom fighters then so are those who are fighting for self determination and freedom from India in Kashmir.
But of course you will not, you are the queen of double standards.
One mans terrorist is another man's Freedom fighter.
What was Nelson Mandela, terrorist , jailed for terrorism , terrorist or freedom fighter, you chose..

You must live in la la land I heard and saw Interview after interview with Indian ministers on all the UK news outlets.
I bet only one side was shown in India and Pakistan ?

Stop lieing and rambling, I do not support it, I understand why it is happening., the reasons, the historical background..
You are conflating understanding for the reasons with support for the act.
I realise that it will keep happening probably until the end of time.

The entire human rights community has condemned India's actions in Kashmir, for decades , so I am happy to agree with them not you..
Yet again you edit your post after a reply. Yes, not eating beef etc is a 'belief'/ 'practice' -----it is not "condemned" by the government it is not an excuse or justification for any crime.
Beef is eaten in many Indian States. As is pork regardless of Muslim 'beliefs' and practises'.

There is NO excuse or justification for ANY murder. Are you saying a murder/rape for a reason not connected to religious beliefs should have a lesser punishment????

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Old Mar 8th 2019, 10:35 pm
  #655  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
I will ask you some questions EMR?

When were you last in Kashmir. When did you last speak to a Kashmiri citizen?
How did Pakistan get control of half the State?
Why do you ignore the wishes of the majority of Kashmiris in India controlled Kashmir; why do you ignore their suffering?

Human rights Committee have condemned various actions of the Indian army, not the rights of the majority of Kashmiris to decide to remain an Indian State.
As I said the international Community have condemned Pakistan for harbouring terrorists. Terrorists that cause deaths world-wide not just in Kashmir.

DO NOT accuse me of lying. I have told you I will provide links to what I have said---

You still did not answer the question about your rambling in your first post this morning.

What beliefs and practises were you referring to that you say causes political parties to support violence?
EMR do you ever answer questions about your posts.



(Apologies unable to re-find the link regarding the BBC. However found this regarding terrorism which I am sure you will discount being USA)

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world...lnAdqxXbJ.html
You are a liar , you repeatedly accuse me and others of views that have never been expressed, just figments of your imagination...

The Kashmiris are suffering, have suffered for decades because India occupied the country and renaged on the agreement long before the growth of Islamic terrorism in it current form for a plebiscite on their future...

I ask you again, were the bombers and killers in the name of Indian Independence, terrorists or freedom fighters.
How do they differ from Kashmiris fighting for the right for self determination.
We vwill never know what the Kashmiris think because they will never be given a chance to express their views in a free referendum administered by the UN as an example,
.
Your link has got nothing to do with the reasons for these acts., which will keep happening..

Kashmir and other border areas where the majority are not of the same religion or ethnicity as the ruling class in India will continue to be areas of conflict and civil unrest.
If Pakistan closed every terrorist camp tomorrow that would not end the demands for self determination .

Last edited by EMR; Mar 8th 2019 at 10:43 pm.
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 11:34 pm
  #656  
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Originally Posted by EMR
1) You are a liar , you repeatedly accuse me and others of views that have never been expressed, just figments of your imagination...

2) The Kashmiris are suffering, have suffered for decades because India occupied the country and renaged on the agreement long before the growth of Islamic terrorism in it current form for a plebiscite on their future...

3) I ask you again, were the bombers and killers in the name of Indian Independence, terrorists or freedom fighters.
How do they differ from Kashmiris fighting for the right for self determination.
We vwill never know what the Kashmiris think because they will never be given a chance to express their views in a free referendum administered by the UN as an example,
.
Your link has got nothing to do with the reasons for these acts., which will keep happening..

4) Kashmir and other border areas where the majority are not of the same religion or ethnicity as the ruling class in India will continue to be areas of conflict and civil unrest.
If Pakistan closed every terrorist camp tomorrow that would not end 5) the demands for self determination .
1) Could I remind you about Rule 15 of this Forum.

What views are you referring to that I have wrongly accused you of? (On the contrary you accuse me of something or other in practically every post!

2) Kashmir was an independent State not a 'country' it was legally acceded to India. India did not "occupy the State" on the contrary many left and went to Jammu or other areas of India.
Yes it would have been better if a referendum had been held later by Congress Governments.
However we are talking of the situation NOW---when even your twin Morpeth has agreed that it would cause massive violence and destruction.

3) The killing is not justified whatever the cause. The Quit India movement did not use bombs or violence.
Kashmiris in the Indian controlled part of Kashmir have ELECTIONS to choose their rulers they have a separate Constitution from the rest of India.

The estimate is about a third of Kashmiris want change----EMR ----for once answer -----what are the rights of the two thirds who want to remain part of India????????

4) what other border areas are you referring to?

5) Yes the minority who want to change the system will probably continue violence but without the incursions/ money/ terrorism from Pakistan will not cause so much misery.

A final question to you EMR why is there good relationship with Bangladesh? Why are Bangladeshi people in their thousands coming into India?

(PS --our Kashmiri host (Muslim) is asking why we have cancelled our planned trip. Says local tourism is restarting.)
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Old Mar 8th 2019, 11:50 pm
  #657  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
1) Could I remind you about Rule 15 of this Forum.

What views are you referring to that I have wrongly accused you of? (On the contrary you accuse me of something or other in practically every post!

2) Kashmir was an independent State not a 'country' it was legally acceded to India. India did not "occupy the State" on the contrary many left and went to Jammu or other areas of India.
Yes it would have been better if a referendum had been held later by Congress Governments.
However we are talking of the situation NOW---when even your twin Morpeth has agreed that it would cause massive violence and destruction.

3) The killing is not justified whatever the cause. The Quit India movement did not use bombs or violence.
Kashmiris in the Indian controlled part of Kashmir have ELECTIONS to choose their rulers they have a separate Constitution from the rest of India.

The estimate is about a third of Kashmiris want change----EMR ----for once answer -----what are the rights of the two thirds who want to remain part of India????????

4) what other border areas are you referring to?

5) Yes the minority who want to change the system will probably continue violence but without the incursions/ money/ terrorism from Pakistan will not cause so much misery.

A final question to you EMR why is there good relationship with Bangladesh? Why are Bangladeshi people in their thousands coming into India?

(PS --our Kashmiri host (Muslim) is asking why we have cancelled our planned trip. Says local tourism is restarting.)
You really do not know much about India do you.
Just look up " Gentleman Terrorists " and their association with Gandhi , he did not condone violence but understood the reasons for it.
Assination attempts on the Viceroy, regional uprisings bombs, killings of public figures.

Kashmir was a Kingdom, once again you do not know your history or you have swallowed all the decades of propaganda,
The events of 1947,8 are part of recorded history, as much as you try to rewrite them.
You really have been brainwashed haven,t you.

Why are Indians in their thousands coming to the UK,,the US, Canada every year etc., for the same reasons, as the Bangladeshis move to India a better life ...
Probably many many more leave India than arrive from Bangladesh.

If you are right , all India has to do is go to the UN, state that if Pakistan will do the same both withdraw their military , allow a UN peace keeping force, a UN organised referendum and both sides agree to be bound by the results.
WE know of course that will never happen., India would not want it.

Last edited by EMR; Mar 8th 2019 at 11:59 pm.
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Old Mar 9th 2019, 12:42 am
  #658  
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Originally Posted by EMR
1) You really do not know much about India do you.
Just look up " Gentleman Terrorists " and their association with Gandhi , he did not condone violence but understood the reasons for it.
Assination attempts on the Viceroy, regional uprisings bombs, killings of public figures.

2) Kashmir was a Kingdom, once again you do not know your history or you have swallowed all the decades of propaganda,
The events of 1947,8 are part of recorded history, as much as you try to rewrite them.
You really have been brainwashed haven,t you.

Why are Indians in their thousands coming to the UK,,the US, Canada every year etc., for the same reasons, as the Bangladeshis move to India a better life ...
Probably many many more leave India than arrive from Bangladesh.

3) If you are right , all India has to do is go to the UN, state that if Pakistan will do the same both withdraw their military , allow a UN peace keeping force, a UN organised referendum and both sides agree to be bound by the results.
WE know of course that will never happen., India would not want it.
1) How would I know anything I only live there! Are you condoning violence if you personally agree with its aims??
A little more complicated than your ideas.
Historian examines India's 'gentlemen' terrorists | Cornell Chronicle

2) Kashmir was a Princely State. You are twisting words.
Are you saying the State was NOT legally acceded to India?
I have AGREED with you about the referendum!!!!!

Bangladeshis are Muslims according to you they would not want to be in India! What about the peaceful exchange of an area of land into Bangladeshi territory??

3) It will never happen because of the upsurge in terrorism and deaths that would result.

EMR you still will not answer the question about he rights of the majority of people in Kashmir who are NOT separatists.

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Old Mar 9th 2019, 1:26 am
  #659  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
1) How would I know anything I only live there! Are you no incondoning violence if you personally agree with its aims??
A little more complicated than your ideas.
Historian examines India's 'gentlemen' terrorists | Cornell Chronicle

2) Kashmir was a Princely State. You are twisting words.
Are you saying the State was NOT legally acceded to India?
I have AGREED with you about the referendum!!!!!

Bangladeshis are Muslims according to you they would not want to be in India! What about the peaceful exchange of an area of land into Bangladeshi territory??

3) It will never happen because of the upsurge in terrorism and deaths that would result.

EMR you still will not answer the question about he rights of the majority of people in Kashmir who are NOT separatists.
Facts are not twisting words but you do not understand that.
You ignore recorded history because you are biased.
We will never know what the majority in kashmir think because they will never be asked

At least I have got you to look into the history of pre the nation that exists today.

Sometimes violence is justified where would you have gained your liberties without it.
Liberties you deny others.

Last edited by EMR; Mar 9th 2019 at 1:34 am.
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Old Mar 9th 2019, 1:38 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Facts are not twisting words but you do not understand that.
You ignore recorded history because you are biased.
We will never know what the majority in kashmir think because they will never be asked.
Kashmir was a Princely State FACT. If you want to call it a Kingdom it is just semantics.

There are elections in Jammu Kashmir, there have been numerous independent surveys.

EMR-----just think about it? How do Kashmiri people earn their living? How many have YOU discussed the situation with?


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