India and the Wars

Old Feb 19th 2019, 12:57 am
  #376  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Read your own posts, you stated that if Muslims were not happy they could go to Pakistan
That is prejudice against people who are Indian, descended from those who lived in the times of Bharat, just a different religion.
It is you who regard Muslims as being different, when they are as Indian as any other inhabitant of that nation.
Why do you say you mix with Muslims, Christians Tec why not say you mix with all those around you instead of defining them as being different ..

No EMR--- You read posts! You keep saying that the Muslims deserve a Muslim majority State----Partition----Kashmir for example.
I pointed out that the people of Hyderabad obviously didn't WANT that otherwise more would have gone at Partition or more since.

I said---- I mix with Muslims/Christians etc because YOU ACCUSED ME of NOT DOING SO!!
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Old Feb 19th 2019, 1:06 am
  #377  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse
I got the best hug I've ever had from a lovely woman who described herself as Dalit, and a blessing as well. Out of all the people I met in India, and I met lots of very nice people, she made the most impression on me.

That is, I assume the 'index finger pointed upwards' was a blessing, I asked someone about it and they told me it was this (although I pinched this description from the Smithsonian website because it explains it better):
Known as Tarjani Mudra. Indicates anger, but do not fear. Raised by a guardian spirit at a temple doorway, or in the iconography of a terrifying goddess like Durga or Kali, the finger is meant to point away from you and vanquish what would harm you.
Yes in India as everywhere----people are people -----good and bad in every 'group'.
There was/is class prejudice in some areas about Dalits. Many who are conscious of class prejudice have changed their names.

The President of India comes from the Dalit class, in fact both 'candidates' this time were from Dalit groups.

There are nowadays very wealthy Dalits and have always been very poor Brahmins.

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Old Feb 19th 2019, 1:13 am
  #378  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Yes in India as everywhere----people are people -----good and bad in every 'group'.
There was/is class prejudice in some areas about Dalits. Many who are conscious of class prejudice have changed their names.

The President of India comes from the Dalit class, in fact both 'candidates' this time were from Dalit groups.

There are nowadays very wealthy Dalits and have always been very poor Brahmins.
It's such a fascinating country Bipat. I could live there for the rest of my life and never hope to even scratch the surface of learning all there is to know about the country and its people. You're very lucky to spend so much time there!
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Old Feb 19th 2019, 1:23 am
  #379  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
No EMR--- You read posts! You keep saying that the Muslims deserve a Muslim majority State----Partition----Kashmir for example.
I pointed out that the people of Hyderabad obviously didn't WANT that otherwise more would have gone at Partition or more since.

I said---- I mix with Muslims/Christians etc because YOU ACCUSED ME of NOT DOING SO!!
Rambling at your best Bipat.
It was the founding fathers of the Nations who who negotiated Independence who said that religion should be the basis of which nation they joined or with the states given the choice to join India,Pakistan or not..
Hyydrabad chose independence from both India and Pakistan as per the terms which ended British rule ,, India's reaction, Invasion..
The same thing happened in border areas on the Indian side of the line of partition.
Do you know the history of modern India, sometimes it seems that you do not.

I have never accused you of not mixing, I just find it odd that you have to tell us their religions etc. as if you identify others by their religion
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Old Feb 19th 2019, 1:42 am
  #380  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
What recorded history are you referring to???? What have I refuted??? I was referring to inaccuracy of posts on BE.
There must be vast amounts written -----have you read it all??????
All historians agree with each other do they????
https://www.open.edu/openlearn/histo...rians-disagree

The meaning of words!!!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_...cial_languages

There is a BharatMatrimony might be useful for you and Bharat coaches to get you around next holiday!
Haven't put links might be advertising!!!!
Yes historians can disagree but with a certain level of critical thinking, logic and evidence required. folk memory and ideology not a good combination for arriving at better history.

Like fanciful comments that most taxation under the British left the country, absolutely not true, or your strenuous defense and excuses for the Indian elite making a priority of space travel over Indians having toilets.

I did read a very impressive statistic today-evidently, I dont know where, was a marathon tree planting done in India- 60 million trees planted in 12 hours. I am impressed by the amount and the coordination that must have been necessary.,
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Old Feb 19th 2019, 1:53 am
  #381  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Yes historians can disagree but with a certain level of critical thinking, logic and evidence required. folk memory and ideology not a good combination for arriving at better history.

Like fanciful comments that most taxation under the British left the country, absolutely not true, or your strenuous defense and excuses for the Indian elite making a priority of space travel over Indians having toilets.

I did read a very impressive statistic today-evidently, I dont know where, was a marathon tree planting done in India- 60 million trees planted in 12 hours. I am impressed by the amount and the coordination that must have been necessary.,
We saw evidence of the tree planting in the drought areas of rajahstan
We were told the seeds of native drought resistant trees were dropped by plane..,
​​​​​​
Not seedlings individually planted.
This would have been impossible given the large areas that now benefit from
re forestation.
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Old Feb 19th 2019, 2:19 am
  #382  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Rambling at your best Bipat.
It was the founding fathers of the Nations who who negotiated Independence who said that religion should be the basis of which nation they joined or with the states given the choice to join India,Pakistan or not..
Hyydrabad chose independence from both India and Pakistan as per the terms which ended British rule ,, India's reaction, Invasion..
The same thing happened in border areas on the Indian side of the line of partition.
Do you know the history of modern India, sometimes it seems that you do not.

I have never accused you of not mixing, I just find it odd that you have to tell us their religions etc. as if you identify others by their religion
Because in India EMR---people are identified by their religion as well as all their other characteristics.
If only just to know what to cook when they come round for a meal!!!!

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Old Feb 19th 2019, 2:22 am
  #383  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse
It's such a fascinating country Bipat. I could live there for the rest of my life and never hope to even scratch the surface of learning all there is to know about the country and its people. You're very lucky to spend so much time there!
Yes I am lucky. It is so good to read your positive posts!

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Old Feb 19th 2019, 2:26 am
  #384  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Because in India EMR---people are identified by their religion as well as all their other characteristics.
If only just to know what to cook when they come round for a meal!!!!
That says a lot about you.
I just try and see people.
We have vegans and vegatarians in the UK as well.
People who do not eat meat. Fish.
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Old Feb 19th 2019, 2:47 am
  #385  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
That says a lot about you.
I just try and see people.
We have vegans and vegatarians in the UK as well.
People who do not eat meat. Fish.
It is not about ME it is about Indian society----Religion is an important part of many people's lives. Knowing about their customs and food likes and dislikes is part of friendship.

We know that a woman wearing a skirt in Goa will be a Christian (or tourist!), we know that a woman in a sari is usually a Hindu.


It is about 'respect' EMR-----respect for different views--- and acknowledging them ---and discussing them---why should people's beliefs and views be hidden----as you seem to want!

Last edited by Bipat; Feb 19th 2019 at 3:43 am. Reason: Too much info about a neigbour.
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Old Feb 19th 2019, 3:15 am
  #386  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
We saw evidence of the tree planting in the drought areas of rajahstan
We were told the seeds of native drought resistant trees were dropped by plane..,
​​​​​​
Not seedlings individually planted.
This would have been impossible given the large areas that now benefit from
re forestation.
Originally Posted by Bipat
It is not about ME it is about Indian society----Religion is an important part of many people's lives. Knowing about their customs and food likes and dislikes is part of friendship.

I made a joke, above, about our taxi driver (his father was taxi driver to a previous generation of the family). We don't book flights on a Friday, should we deliberately do it on his prayer day?? (Because we know he would come not to let us down!)
We know that a woman wearing a skirt in Goa will be a Christian (or tourist!), we know that a woman in a sari is usually a Hindu.


It is about 'respect' EMR-----respect for different views--- and acknowledging them ---and discussing them---why should people's beliefs and views be hidden----as you seem to want!
The views of those who define their fellows by religion race culture are clear for all to see.
I have a real problem showing them any respect..
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Old Feb 19th 2019, 3:41 am
  #387  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
The views of those who define their fellows by religion race culture are clear for all to see.
I have a real problem showing them any respect..
They are not "defined" by it!!! It is part of their selves! You seem keen to make tourist trips to India---why do you refuse to learn about the people?
It is an instinct to know that people are of this or that religion.

If you see a man in a particular type of turban----it is obvious you will know he is Sikh; why ignore this. He is proud to be a Sikh! It is not something to hide or refrain from discussion.
Other signs are less obvious but those who live there recognise them and know how to respect the views of others.

Why can't you discuss and learn from others??

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Old Feb 19th 2019, 4:12 am
  #388  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
They are not "defined" by it!!! It is part of their selves! You seem keen to make tourist trips to India---why do you refuse to learn about the people?
It is an instinct to know that people are of this or that religion.

If you see a man in a particular type of turban----it is obvious you will know he is Sikh; why ignore this. He is proud to be a Sikh! It is not something to hide or refrain from discussion.
Other signs are less obvious but those who live there recognise them and know how to respect the views of others.

Why can't you discuss and learn from others??
Its not how the man who is a Sikh views himself that is the problem but how others seeing him dressed differently to them ,obviously having different beliefs view him , react, treat him that is the problem.
IIn India we know that innocent men have been murdered because they transport cows or eat beef. or even thought to do those things.

Strangers murdered because they are seen as a threat to local children.
These things happen in India because of " labelling ".

But it would be unfair and dishonest not to give you an example of how the ignorant, illinformed, simply racist also behave in the UK.
The far right, extreme racists etc have created a cause celebre following a horrible incident in London earlier this year.
A driver, drunk , and under the influence of drugs , drove at speed and killed 3 young men.
He was rightly prosecuted and is now in jail.
However he is an Asian as was his passenger.
The racist right are claiming a cover-up, suggesting it was not an accident but a terrorist incident because of their ethnicity.
When it was pointed out to them that the killer is in fact a Hindhu , not Muslim, that made no difference., they are all the same.
Tommy Robinson, idol of the far right, has suggested that the number of road accidents involving Muslim drivers should be investigated because as we know driving cars deliberately into pedestrians is a terrorist tactic,.

Once you start seeing and labelling people by their race, religion, culture its the downward path to the worst in humanity.
Muslim, Hindhu, Christian ,Buddhist , right or left wing extremism, all are the same in my book , I have no time for any of them..
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Old Feb 20th 2019, 10:53 pm
  #389  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Its not how the man who is a Sikh views himself that is the problem but how others seeing him dressed differently to them ,obviously having different beliefs view him , react, treat him that is the problem.
IIn India we know that innocent men have been murdered because they transport cows or eat beef. or even thought to do those things.

Strangers murdered because they are seen as a threat to local children.
These things happen in India because of " labelling ".

But it would be unfair and dishonest not to give you an example of how the ignorant, illinformed, simply racist also behave in the UK.
The far right, extreme racists etc have created a cause celebre following a horrible incident in London earlier this year.
A driver, drunk , and under the influence of drugs , drove at speed and killed 3 young men.
He was rightly prosecuted and is now in jail.
However he is an Asian as was his passenger.
The racist right are claiming a cover-up, suggesting it was not an accident but a terrorist incident because of their ethnicity.
When it was pointed out to them that the killer is in fact a Hindhu , not Muslim, that made no difference., they are all the same.
Tommy Robinson, idol of the far right, has suggested that the number of road accidents involving Muslim drivers should be investigated because as we know driving cars deliberately into pedestrians is a terrorist tactic,.

Once you start seeing and labelling people by their race, religion, culture its the downward path to the worst in humanity.
Muslim, Hindhu, Christian ,Buddhist , right or left wing extremism, all are the same in my book , I have no time for any of them..
While Bipat may exhibit apparently lot of views or sympathies with extreme Hindu nationalists, she also paints a vision of India of harmony where a person's religion doesn't matter in how they think, the values they have and instead just a bunch of quaint eating customs or holidays. But I dont get the impression she would discriminate personally against anyone

In most parts of the world outside the secular West religion is stronger and recognizing someone's faith, and respecting they would have different views as well as customs and values is just respect and tolerance whether we agree with the views or not. Not taking into account a person's faith or cultural background is not too understanding r respectful.
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Old Feb 21st 2019, 12:51 am
  #390  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
While Bipat may exhibit apparently lot of views or sympathies with extreme Hindu nationalists, she also paints a vision of India of harmony where a person's religion doesn't matter in how they think, the values they have and instead just a bunch of quaint eating customs or holidays. But I dont get the impression she would discriminate personally against anyone

In most parts of the world outside the secular West religion is stronger and recognizing someone's faith, and respecting they would have different views as well as customs and values is just respect and tolerance whether we agree with the views or not. Not taking into account a person's faith or cultural background is not too understanding r respectful.
Morpeth do you ever read posts before you resort to your frequent insults to describe another poster??
I do not "sympathise with any extreme Hindu nationalists", or any extreme nationalists!

I point out that approx. 80% of the population are 'nominally' Hindu-----why ignore that? Why do you and EMR have such a problem with that?
Do you approve of the old-time forced conversions by Christians?? Some missionaries are still trying!!

I have said above that in India a persons religion often DOES matter, but for the most it is just ONE ASPECT of a person.

Yes we all know that dispute and violence happens---for the majority it doesn't!

Your usual 'snide' remark!! "quaint eating habits and customs"! In India all holidays regardless of the religion are celebrated by ALL! The usual excuse for spending and eating are enjoyed regardless of religion!!!

In the UK many are vegetarian and more vegans-----is this a "quaint custom"?????

I agree with your second paragraph!! Just as I agree with EMR's last post, if that were possible in the world. However it isn't and never has been since the days of Mesopotamia!
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