India and the Wars

Old Feb 7th 2019, 9:44 pm
  #241  
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I have heard that in Goa - and in Macao, Portuguese is noiw a minority language spoken by few. I suspect the same is true in that other former Portuguese colony in Asia - Timor.
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Old Feb 7th 2019, 10:11 pm
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Originally Posted by scot47
I have heard that in Goa - and in Macao, Portuguese is noiw a minority language spoken by few. I suspect the same is true in that other former Portuguese colony in Asia - Timor.
It always was a minority language in Goa----Portuguese didn't 'settle' as such, just administered trade. Goans spoke/speak Konkani and Marathi. The opinion poll/referendum in 1967 as to whether 'Goa' should be merged with Maharashtra, the people voted against so therefore were given Statehood.
An important factor in the referendum was language, in that Marathi is more for academic purposes rather than everyday language.

(Of course nowadays tourism they also speak English and Russian!!)
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Old Feb 8th 2019, 3:47 am
  #243  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
The evidence of the eyes of the people who travelled through both. In later years travel to their temples was allowed there were buses-----also travel across to Mumbai using their train system until later stopped. It could connect to the British trains.
The evidence of my eyes in late 1960s.
Obviously none of this will satisfy yourself.

(It depends what you mean by poorer-----the Portuguese officers there were very wealthy ---massive beautiful houses in main towns -----these you can still see for yourself, now derelict and falling down--a few are museums. I was referring above to Goans.

(Some elite Hindu Goans (they were treated better in later decades ) also were employed and lived well but obviously a small minority. They absorbed Portuguese music and art. This spread to some extent- across borders---our house is built in Portuguese style ---three different level roofs etc. Since independence this has extended giving Goa its individual culture of music, literature etc.)
The Goans of course would not have benefited from the billions in aid India received , Portugal itself. being one if Europe's poorest countries .
How many 100s of years ago did Goa turn into a colonial backwater with little trade with Portugal.?
If you do any research you will find that Goas economic importance started to Decline from the 16th century onwards ..
It was hardly exploited as there was little to exploit...

Last edited by EMR; Feb 8th 2019 at 3:52 am.
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Old Feb 8th 2019, 4:15 am
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Originally Posted by EMR
The Goans of course would not have benefited from the billions in aid India received , Portugal itself. being one if Europe's poorest countries .
How many 100s of years ago did Goa turn into a colonial backwater with little trade with Portugal.?
If you do any research you will find that Goas economic importance started to Decline from the 16th century onwards ..
It was hardly exploited as there was little to exploit...
I have explained to you before EMR ----Portugal used Goa---(useful coastal position) as a base for its trade with other countries, spice trade. There wasn't that much internal trade.
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Old Feb 8th 2019, 4:31 am
  #245  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
I have explained to you before EMR ----Portugal used Goa---(useful coastal position) as a base for its trade with other countries, spice trade. There wasn't that much internal trade.
As a student of Indian history you will know that Portugals influence in the sub continent , in the spice trade declined with the arrival of the dutch ho took over most of the trade, conquered most of Portugal far eastern possessions., such as in Kerela..
They in turn were supplanted by the British.
There was no great wealth eminating from Goa back to Portugal for most of the time they were there..
Portugal was far more interested in Brazil and it's African colonies.
Its in the history books.
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Old Feb 8th 2019, 4:38 am
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Originally Posted by EMR
As a student of Indian history you will know that Portugals influence in the sub continent , in the spice trade declined with the arrival of the dutch ho took over most of the trade, conquered most of Portugal far eastern possessions., such as in Kerela..
They in turn were supplanted by the British.
There was no great wealth eminating from Goa back to Portugal for most of the time they were there..
Portugal was far more interested in Brazil and it's African colonies.
Its in the history books.

Yes EMR that is why the Goans were poor!!!! (Morpeth's question), why some who were able moved over the borders!

The obvious question is why did the Portuguese not just leave?




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Old Feb 8th 2019, 4:46 am
  #247  
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[QUOTE=Bipat;12634298]Yes EMR that is why the Goans were poor!!!! (Morpeth's question), why some who were able moved over the borders!

The obvious question is why did the Portuguese not just leave?



The Goans were poor because it had little off any economic importance, probably one of the reasons the British returned it to Portugal after their period of occupation in the early 19th century..
Fortunately for Inda the region where Mumbai is was given by the Portuguese to the British in the 17th century.
Indian history could have been very different if that area had stagnated as did Goa..
Who would you have preferred the Portuguese or the British,..
The Portuguese did not leave because it was a regime stuck in the past, clinging to 19th century values and an outdated view of its global importance..

Last edited by EMR; Feb 8th 2019 at 4:53 am.
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Old Feb 8th 2019, 4:57 am
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EMR ---you have messed up the Quote again!!!!!!

I have told you before that at various times many Goans preferred British rule to Portuguese rule.

The point of these posts regarding Goa in 1961 is that the people concerned were NOT Portuguese they were indigenous Konkani/Marathi speaking Goans.

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Old Feb 8th 2019, 5:11 am
  #249  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR ---you have messed up the Quote again!!!!!!

I have told you before that at various times many Goans preferred British rule to Portuguese rule.

The point of these posts regarding Goa in 1961 is that the people concerned were NOT Portuguese they were indigenous Konkani/Marathi speaking Goans.
The point is that Portugal did not exploit Goa but being a poor country left it to stagnate.
I can understand how looking at the benefits of dynamic British rule with its huge investment and social changes compared to Portuguese rule they would have preferred to be part of your despised British Empire in India..
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Old Feb 8th 2019, 9:08 am
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Originally Posted by Bipat
The evidence of the eyes of the people who travelled through both. In later years travel to their temples was allowed there were buses-----also travel across to Mumbai using their train system until later stopped. It could connect to the British trains.<br />The evidence of my eyes in late 1960s.<br />Obviously none of this will satisfy yourself.<br /><br />(It depends what you mean by poorer-----the Portuguese officers there were very wealthy ---massive beautiful houses in main towns -----these you can still see for yourself, now derelict and falling down--a few are museums. I was referring above to Goans.<br /><br />(Some elite Hindu Goans (they were treated better in later decades ) also were employed and lived well but obviously a small minority. They absorbed Portuguese music and art. This spread to some extent- across borders---our house is built in Portuguese style ---three different level roofs etc. Since independence this has extended giving Goa its individual culture of music, literature etc.)
<br /><br />I have no reason to disbelieve you, except your tendency to make statements that subsequently any factual analysis shows wrong- and then you state everyone Indian or non Indian must be wrong because absent any economic training or study, all anecdotal evidence is sufficient for you. I did educated Indian this evening and posed the question to him he is from the general area, and he was rather perplexed at why there would have been in the 1950's any significant difference in the poverty between Goa and nearby regions ? And if so for what factors ?<br /><br />The problem is I have no reason to disbelieve your comment if you or your family had actual presence here at the time, except your tendency to state things that are factually not true to back up your points.<br /><br />Surely with all your family and relatives and access to Indian information there must be some reference material supporting the assertion that Goa was more poor in he 1950's than the surrounding areas?<br /><br />Or is like the comical belief the British extracted from India back to Britain huge portions of the taxation done in India ?<br /><br />( I wonder if Goa part of Portugal today with all the EU benefits whether it would be better off ?Of co4use you dislke the EU as uch as you do the British so I can guess your answer).

Last edited by morpeth; Feb 8th 2019 at 9:14 am.
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Old Feb 8th 2019, 10:12 am
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Originally Posted by morpeth
<br /><br />I have no reason to disbelieve you, except your tendency to make statements that subsequently any factual analysis shows wrong- and then you state everyone Indian or non Indian must be wrong because absent any economic training or study, all anecdotal evidence is sufficient for you. I did educated Indian this evening and posed the question to him he is from the general area, and he was rather perplexed at why there would have been in the 1950's any significant difference in the poverty between Goa and nearby regions ? And if so for what factors ?<br /><br />The problem is I have no reason to disbelieve your comment if you or your family had actual presence here at the time, except your tendency to state things that are factually not true to back up your points.<br /><br />Surely with all your family and relatives and access to Indian information there must be some reference material supporting the assertion that Goa was more poor in he 1950's than the surrounding areas?<br /><br />Or is like the comical belief the British extracted from India back to Britain huge portions of the taxation done in India ?<br /><br />( I wonder if Goa part of Portugal today with all the EU benefits whether it would be better off ?Of co4use you dislke the EU as uch as you do the British so I can guess your answer).
Morpeth you spoke to one 'educated' person!!! What do you mean by "General Area" You have not provided evidence.

I think surprisingly even EMR's post gives reasons why Goans would be poor.

Note ----Morpeth--- I stated Goans were poor ---as I have said many of the occupying Portuguese had large mansion houses.

I am sure there is a wealth of information if I care to look it out. I did not myself think to take photos of the open sewers in Margao, the pig toilets, the beggars etc when there in the 1960s.

I am not going to waste time finding published evidence and putting such information on an Expat Forum. If you want to think I am wrong carry on!

Again the issue of taxation and the British-----I ask you again what was the purpose of the British Raj---if they didn't get anything out of it?

Morpeth ----Goa was never "part of Portugal", Portuguese nationals used the area and lived their for their own purposes. There was no basic difference between Goans and the people in the surrounding areas their origins/language/ethnicity etc.

Did you read the results of the opinion poll/ referendum in 1967.

Morpeth I object to your continued remarks that I am anti-British, your above-- "dislike as you do the British"-----I am British ---of total British inheritance (Oh! one set of Irish Great grandparents!!)

One point you haven't considered; Christian Goans born in Goa before 1961 and registered with the Portuguese authorities, were allowed to hold Portuguese passports. So therefore they could go to any EU country they wish, why do you think those that wanted to emigrate went to the UK and not to Portugal??
There is a large community in Swindon UK.




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Old Feb 8th 2019, 6:31 pm
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Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth you spoke to one 'educated' person!!! What do you mean by "General Area" You have not provided evidence.

I think surprisingly even EMR's post gives reasons why Goans would be poor.

Note ----Morpeth--- I stated Goans were poor ---as I have said many of the occupying Portuguese had large mansion houses.

I am sure there is a wealth of information if I care to look it out. I did not myself think to take photos of the open sewers in Margao, the pig toilets, the beggars etc when there in the 1960s.

I am not going to waste time finding published evidence and putting such information on an Expat Forum. If you want to think I am wrong carry on!

Again the issue of taxation and the British-----I ask you again what was the purpose of the British Raj---if they didn't get anything out of it?

Morpeth ----Goa was never "part of Portugal", Portuguese nationals used the area and lived their for their own purposes. There was no basic difference between Goans and the people in the surrounding areas their origins/language/ethnicity etc.

Did you read the results of the opinion poll/ referendum in 1967.

Morpeth I object to your continued remarks that I am anti-British, your above-- "dislike as you do the British"-----I am British ---of total British inheritance (Oh! one set of Irish Great grandparents!!)

One point you haven't considered; Christian Goans born in Goa before 1961 and registered with the Portuguese authorities, were allowed to hold Portuguese passports. So therefore they could go to any EU country they wish, why do you think those that wanted to emigrate went to the UK and not to Portugal??
There is a large community in Swindon UK.
Morpeth you spoke to one 'educated' person!!! What do you mean by "General Area" You have not provided evidence?



I did not make the assertion you did. Yes it was one educated person, such anecdotal evidence is exactly what you use as your posts indicates- no surprise- you haven’t a clue what the actual figures were except observations from your family who form your comments seem to have an extremely subjective and biased views in such matters.

I think surprisingly even EMR's post gives reasons why Goans would be poor.

Note ----Morpeth--- I stated Goans were poor ---as I have said many of the occupying Portuguese had large mansion houses.


I simply asked whether Goans were appreciably more poor than their neighbors (and of course if true why) in the 1950s. Not a surprise you avoid answering but surely all the anecdotal evidence and observations did stop at the border of Goa. So your family members would walk around Goa noticing conditions, but then if they crossed the border stopped observing?

The issue of course is your seeking to justify the forcible Indian occupation. While I have questioned some of your reasoning, my original and main point is that India has used force to impose its will no different than nay colonial power : just you approve of it.


I am not going to waste time finding published evidence and putting such information on an Expat Forum. If you want to think I am wrong carry on!

Perhaps why you object to evidence when presented.

“Again the issue of taxation and the British-----I ask you again what was the purpose of the British Raj---if they didn't get anything out of it?”

This is why I asked where you got your philosophy studies (which normally at some point include study on logic and differences between inductive and deductive reasoning) or whether over the years you have been adopting some form of Indian English where the words have different meaning.

I have tried patently to explain to you that almost any history of colonialism and imperialism would show here were a variety of reasons for imperialism beyond the simple economic. Second, much earlier I presented data on the amount of taxation and how much stayed in India.

Since you go by anecdotal evidence only ( it does have value of course) but only if fits your anti-British narrative, I am unsure why you wouldn’t want to study some history in particular economic history before being so certain or without at least some qualifications in your assertions.












“Morpeth ----Goa was never "part of Portugal", Portuguese nationals used the area and lived their for their own purposes. There was no basic difference between Goans and the people in the surrounding areas their origins/language/ethnicity etc.”

It was legally part of Portugal under Portuguese law, and recognized internationally. He issue simply revolves around the use of force which India employed- which you justify as much as Hitler or Stalin or Churchill for that matter.

Everyone rules for their own reasons.


Did you read the results of the opinion poll/ referendum in 1967?

Was that a poll asking if Goa would be independent form India? Monitored by international observers? If not what is the point.

Morphett I object to your continued remarks that I am anti-British, your above-- "dislike as you do the British"-----I am British ---of total British inheritance (Oh! one set of Irish Great grandparents!!)

Sorry on a personal level, your consistent usually without evidence criticism of British rule comes off as anti-British.


“One point you haven't considered; Christian Goans born in Goa before 1961 and registered with the Portuguese authorities, were allowed to hold Portuguese passports. So therefore they could go to any EU country they wish, why do you think those that wanted to emigrate went to the UK and not to Portugal??
There is a large community in Swindon UK.”


Actually was thinking about people in Goa today- if still under the Portuguese those born after 1961 would have the benefits ( which in terms of Brexit you think are not substantial) would have the rights of EU citizens would have thought, maybe I am wrong, more went to U khan Portugal simply because here were more opportunities.


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Old Feb 8th 2019, 6:46 pm
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Originally Posted by Bipat
Yes EMR that is why the Goans were poor!!!! (Morpeth's question), why some who were able moved over the borders!

The obvious question is why did the Portuguese not just leave?
I am confused. You state Goans were poor, and I asked whether they were any more or less poor than their neighbors. EMR points out that over time Goa became less important economically for the Portuguese yet they held onto what eventually became a constituent part of metropolitan Portugal. You seem to agree with his assessment. But if Goa had a roughly same economic standard of living as nearby territory , what was it about Portuguese rule that meant it was for hat reason poorer ?

As far as the billions of dollars of food aid EMR refers to I can observe anecdotally the level of corruption in India among its elite and usually disregard for the poor- my father took me to the market stores showing me boxes of food clearly marked not for sale being sold in stores at a premium.

The Portuguese didn't leave because Goa at the time was part of Portugal.Nothing difficult to understand.Just as Russians may consider Crimea being "liberated" justified so do you justify India's forcible occupation of Goa ( or other areas as well).

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Old Feb 8th 2019, 7:21 pm
  #254  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth you spoke to one 'educated' person!!! What do you mean by "General Area" You have not provided evidence.

I think surprisingly even EMR's post gives reasons why Goans would be poor.

Note ----Morpeth--- I stated Goans were poor ---as I have said many of the occupying Portuguese had large mansion houses.

I am sure there is a wealth of information if I care to look it out. I did not myself think to take photos of the open sewers in Margao, the pig toilets, the beggars etc when there in the 1960s.

I am not going to waste time finding published evidence and putting such information on an Expat Forum. If you want to think I am wrong carry on!

Again the issue of taxation and the British-----I ask you again what was the purpose of the British Raj---if they didn't get anything out of it?

Morpeth ----Goa was never "part of Portugal", Portuguese nationals used the area and lived their for their own purposes. There was no basic difference between Goans and the people in the surrounding areas their origins/language/ethnicity etc.

Did you read the results of the opinion poll/ referendum in 1967.

Morpeth I object to your continued remarks that I am anti-British, your above-- "dislike as you do the British"-----I am British ---of total British inheritance (Oh! one set of Irish Great grandparents!!)

One point you haven't considered; Christian Goans born in Goa before 1961 and registered with the Portuguese authorities, were allowed to hold Portuguese passports. So therefore they could go to any EU country they wish, why do you think those that wanted to emigrate went to the UK and not to Portugal??
There is a large community in Swindon UK.
That you will not spend your time researching factual recorded evidence confirms as it has done time after time that you are not interested in facts just your narrow minded blinkered views on just about everything you post on..
Why would Goans with EU pasprts not want yo go to a country offering them the possibility of a better ,I've, they are a tiny fraction of those from India who did the same..
The Goans are no different from the Poles, the Spanish.and all the others EU citizens who moved under FOM.
So in future the UK can legally exclude them and you will be happy with that.

FACT Goa was never part of India , that entity did not come into existence until 1947.
I will agree with you that geographically it us part of The Indian sub continent,
India and The iIndian sub continent are not the same thing.
I assume you agree that Gibraltar should be returned to Spain, for no other reason that it is geographically part of the Iberian peninsula..

Last edited by EMR; Feb 8th 2019 at 7:51 pm.
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Old Feb 8th 2019, 7:56 pm
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Originally Posted by morpeth
Morpeth you spoke to one 'educated' person!!! What do you mean by "General Area" You have not provided evidence?



1) I did not make the assertion you did. Yes it was one educated person, such anecdotal evidence is exactly what you use as your posts indicates- no surprise- you haven’t a clue what the actual figures were except observations from your family who form your comments seem to have an extremely subjective and biased views in such matters.

I think surprisingly even EMR's post gives reasons why Goans would be poor.

Note ----Morpeth--- I stated Goans were poor ---as I have said many of the occupying Portuguese had large mansion houses.


I simply asked whether Goans were appreciably more poor than their neighbors (and of course if true why) in the 1950s. Not a surprise you avoid answering but surely all the anecdotal evidence and observations did stop at the border of Goa. So your family members would walk around Goa noticing conditions, but then if they crossed the border stopped observing?

2) The issue of course is your seeking to justify the forcible Indian occupation. While I have questioned some of your reasoning, my original and main point is that India has used force to impose its will no different than nay colonial power : just you approve of it.


I am not going to waste time finding published evidence and putting such information on an Expat Forum. If you want to think I am wrong carry on!

Perhaps why you object to evidence when presented.

“Again the issue of taxation and the British-----I ask you again what was the purpose of the British Raj---if they didn't get anything out of it?”

This is why I asked where you got your philosophy studies (which normally at some point include study on logic and differences between inductive and deductive reasoning) or whether over the years you have been adopting some form of Indian English where the words have different meaning.

3) I have tried patently to explain to you that almost any history of colonialism and imperialism would show here were a variety of reasons for imperialism beyond the simple economic. Second, much earlier I presented data on the amount of taxation and how much stayed in India.

Since you go by anecdotal evidence only ( it does have value of course) but only if fits your anti-British narrative, I am unsure why you wouldn’t want to study some history in particular economic history before being so certain or without at least some qualifications in your assertions.












“Morpeth ----Goa was never "part of Portugal", Portuguese nationals used the area and lived their for their own purposes. There was no basic difference between Goans and the people in the surrounding areas their origins/language/ethnicity etc.”

4) It was legally part of Portugal under Portuguese law, and recognized internationally. He issue simply revolves around the use of force which India employed- which you justify as much as Hitler or Stalin or Churchill for that matter.

Everyone rules for their own reasons.


Did you read the results of the opinion poll/ referendum in 1967?

5) Was that a poll asking if Goa would be independent form India? Monitored by international observers? If not what is the point.

Morphett I object to your continued remarks that I am anti-British, your above-- "dislike as you do the British"-----I am British ---of total British inheritance (Oh! one set of Irish Great grandparents!!)

Sorry on a personal level, your consistent usually without evidence criticism of British rule comes off as anti-British.


“One point you haven't considered; Christian Goans born in Goa before 1961 and registered with the Portuguese authorities, were allowed to hold Portuguese passports. So therefore they could go to any EU country they wish, why do you think those that wanted to emigrate went to the UK and not to Portugal??
There is a large community in Swindon UK.”


6) Actually was thinking about people in Goa today- if still under the Portuguese those born after 1961 would have the benefits ( which in terms of Brexit you think are not substantial) would have the rights of EU citizens would have thought, maybe I am wrong, more went to U khan Portugal simply because here were more opportunities.


1) I asked what you meant by "general area"-------I was interested, why couldn't you answer?
Do you need "figures" to know that the people of the Mumbai slums are "poor"??
Relatives knew the surrounding areas of Goa, they travelled widely ----and certainly in the 50s -----I was there in the late 60s. Morpeth the quickest way obviously to get to our home from Mumbai is VIA GOA. It is part of 'home'!!!

Over the years I have read a considerable amount regarding Goa ------I am just not willing to take time to give numerous references to you on a discussion Forum February 2019!!

2) "Forcible occupation"------how do you describe the occupation by Portugal------were they invited in?
As I have repeatedly said the Portuguese could have left peaceably.

3) You only praise colonialism and are unwilling to recognise the misery caused to many. I have repeatedly said that the Raj was not ALL bad.

4) Portugal is a European State, Goa is part of the Indian Subcontinent, the Goan people were NOT Portuguese.
By your logic before 1947 Indian people were British and should have had full legal equality with other British people.

5) So you are saying the opinions of Goan people were irrelevant. If you read the results of the referendum it gives a foreigner such as yourself an indication of the situation.

6) The right to hold a Portuguese passport could be passed down to offspring if they were registered at birth. This is an anomaly in India where dual nationality is not allowed. (I would point out that India allowed Portuguese property and family law to continue until quite recently, to avoid difficulties.)

(A personal anecdote-----the head waiter at a restaurant we go to in Palolem---constantly berates the fact that his father registered his brother but not himself for a Portuguese passport; he wants to come to the UK. We try to explain that he is actually doing a lot better where he is.)



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