India and the Wars

Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:22 pm
  #196  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=Bipat;12633535]
Originally Posted by EMR

Don't start on Kashmir it is too complex for you, the people there take part in elections. The majority vote for the status quo. There are terrorists coming over the border supporting those who disagree.
Do you really think a referendum could take place without major violence orchestrated by Pakistan?

The election will be soon, we are going there in May so I will report to you.

What do you really KNOW about Goa---were you there at the time of 'take-over, ' had YOU been travelling through Goa throughout your childhood to family temple----only 12 hour stay allowed?? Did your community leave to escape?

I think half-knowledge from a distance is more "simple minded" to quote yourself!
Your insults are not even based on rudimentary logic, you indicated you studied Philosophy, did it include a course on logic ? Was the study in Engish of Hindi ? You go on and on about conditions in Goa, when I commented on was the fact that India used force to impose its will. Why I such a simple fact so difficult for you to accept ?

The referendum I was referring to was the one India agreed to decades ago that never occurred- India simply too scared to consult the people of Kashmir. As far as today whether the majority of the whole of Kashmir would support remaining part of India I dont know. I am referring to the whole of Kashmir not just the part under Indian occupation.

Quite right it is a complex situation and I do not claim to have studied it in any depth, I was simply pointing out reality of India's use of force. Your completely one-sided way of looking at things does render your opinions at the least questionable combined with your dedication to avoiding contrary evidence.You maybe completely right that today the people of Kashmir in he majority support being part of India, considering India's progress vs that of Pakistan, it wouldn't be a surprise...
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:27 pm
  #197  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
I didn't say that force is OK by Indians, however you out of ignorance you choose the wrong examples!!!!!

Certainly Indira caused great violence and paid the price, others also.

With Goa, negotiation was tried and continued occupation by Portugal was long unjustified.
Kashmir Pakistan is more to blame.

"So pro-India"----how many times have I said to you that I could write pages about what is wrong with India? ------you have never bl***y asked what!!!!!
Actually in post after post you have either tried to deny or justify India's use of force. And the examples I give are factual.

Weird way you look at things- Portuguese didn't agree with India so therefore India had no choice to use force. What a way to run the world- someone disagrees so they are to blame when other side uses force? This if nothing else shows the point- India is no different than other states that it can use force to impose its will- whether the British or the Mughals or the mans.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:29 pm
  #198  
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[QUOTE=morpeth;12633645]
Originally Posted by Bipat

Your insults are not even based on rudimentary logic, you indicated you studied Philosophy, did it include a course on logic ? Was the study in Engish of Hindi ? You go on and on about conditions in Goa, when I commented on was the fact that India used force to impose its will. Why I such a simple fact so difficult for you to accept ?

The referendum I was referring to was the one India agreed to decades ago that never occurred- India simply too scared to consult the people of Kashmir. As far as today whether the majority of the whole of Kashmir would support remaining part of India I dont know. I am referring to the whole of Kashmir not just the part under Indian occupation.

Quite right it is a complex situation and I do not claim to have studied it in any depth, I was simply pointing out reality of India's use of force. Your completely one-sided way of looking at things does render your opinions at the least questionable combined with your dedication to avoiding contrary evidence.You maybe completely right that today the people of Kashmir in he majority support being part of India, considering India's progress vs that of Pakistan, it wouldn't be a surprise...
The Philosophy was part of a MA at Kings College London.

I think everyone would be scared of a referendum now in Kashmir---The infiltration and violence orchestrated by Pakistan would be immense. The part of Kashmir taken by Pakistan is essentially part of Pakistan, it will stay as it is. Why can they not accept that they have half of the State?
The election is soon look at the results.


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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:34 pm
  #199  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=EMR;12633640]
Originally Posted by Bipat

Will you be in the areas declared off limits and dangerous beecause of the restrictions on the liberties of the inhabitants.
Come back and report if you are..


At that time they were entering the Portuguese territory of Goa, which had never been part of the republic of India there being NO Indian state until 1947..
The fact that you have inherited the grudges of the descendant of those affected 100s of years ago explains why you cannot see reason only ignorance.
I am sure if I went back far enough I would find some event affecting my great greats, but I am not so narrow minded or I'll informed to justify taking action today against the successors of those who were responsible centuries ago.
No one in a civilised society would defend my actions..
EMR ----it is not just those affected hundreds of years ago!!!! They didn't ALL flee, relatives, were still there!! As I said the family temples were still there!!!

I asked you why you grudged the Goans their present day wealth Statehood and being 'ruled' by a Goan. You haven't answered!
What do you admire so much about Salazar?
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:53 pm
  #200  
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[QUOTE=Bipat;12633652]
Originally Posted by EMR

EMR ----it is not just those affected hundreds of years ago!!!! They didn't ALL flee, relatives, were still there!! As I said the family temples were still there!!!

I asked you why you grudged the Goans their present day wealth Statehood and being 'ruled' by a Goan. You haven't answered!
What do you admire so much about Salazar?
Non one only in your tiny mind has anyone remotely denied the rights of the Goans.
It is only you who justifies invasion because of events 100s years ago.
It is only you who keeps inventing a nation that dud not exist until 1947.
It is only you who indulges in ignorance, misinformation and invention..
Your last line proves yet again that when you have lost the argument you indulge in rambling and invention
I know that you are not a student of History and facts.
Portugal withdrew from ALL its colonies not long after the events we are discussing.
The republic of India would probably then invaded the Independent state of Goa ,had the population voted for self determination after being given its independence by Portugal..
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:56 pm
  #201  
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[QUOTE=Bipat;12633648]
Originally Posted by morpeth

The Philosophy was part of a MA at Kings College London.

I think everyone would be scared of a referendum now in Kashmir---The infiltration and violence orchestrated by Pakistan would be immense. The part of Kashmir taken by Pakistan is essentially part of Pakistan, it will stay as it is. Why can they not accept that they have half of the State?
The election is soon look at the results.
Odd isnt it that Bipat defends the invasion of Goa on the basis of historical events but deny the same rights to those in Kashmir, not Indian by descent or religion whose rights were denied them by the Indian incursion during partition.
No different to any colonial power..

Last edited by EMR; Feb 6th 2019 at 9:37 pm.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:11 pm
  #202  
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[QUOTE=EMR;12633658]
Originally Posted by Bipat

Non one only in your tiny mind has anyone remotely denied the rights of the Goans.
It is only you who justifies invasion because of events 100s years ago.
It is only you who keeps inventing a nation that dud not exist until 1947.
It is only you who indulges in ignorance, misinformation and invention..
Your last line proves yet again that when you have lost the argument you indulge in rambling and invention
I know that you are not a student of History and facts.
Portugal withdrew from ALL its colonies not long after the events we are discussing.
The republic of India would probably then invaded the Independent state of Goa ,had the population voted for self determination after being given its independence by Portugal..
Did you read the link I gave regarding the opinion poll/referendum that Goa had?
Goa is administered by Goans ---why is that a problem, the chief Minister is a Goan. (Along with Goans in the central Government )

If Portugal withdrew from its colonies, why not at the time of negotiations?
I asked what is your opinion of Salazar ---no answer?
Another question why was there a constant move over the years from Goa into the surrounding areas for those who could afford it? They preferred British India (I thought that would have pleased you!)

EMR at least occasionally accept you don't know everything-----did you see the poverty and desolation in Goa in the 1950s and 60s? Look at the wealth now! Have you travelled there every year for the last 80 years (the person now making me coffee has!!!)




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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:17 pm
  #203  
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[QUOTE=Bipat;12633661]
Originally Posted by EMR

Did you read the link I gave regarding the opinion poll/referendum that Goa had?
Goa is administered by Goans ---why is that a problem, the chief Minister is a Goan. (Along with Goans in the central Government )

If Portugal withdrew from its colonies, why not at the time of negotiations?
I asked what is your opinion of Salazar ---no answer?
Another question why was there a constant move over the years from Goa into the surrounding areas for those who could afford it? They preferred British India (I thought that would have pleased you!)

EMR at least occasionally accept you don't know everything-----did you see the poverty and desolation in Goa in the 1950s and 60s? Look at the wealth now! Have you travelled there every year for the last 80 years (the person now making me coffee has!!!)
I do not answer your silly stupid questions designed to divert discussion.
Stop ramb,lng, stop inventing and maybe just maybe we could have and intelligent discussion with you.
Goa was no different from the state of India in the 50s, a state that relied on foreign aid to feed its people's.
But of course you will ignore facts, you are allergic to them...
A little fact for you, most of the nation's in the world are more prosperous and better off than they were in the 50s.
Guess want it has F ALL to do with India ..

Last edited by EMR; Feb 6th 2019 at 9:38 pm.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:18 pm
  #204  
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[QUOTE=EMR;12633660]
Originally Posted by Bipat

Odd isnt it you defend the invasion of Goa on the basis of historical events but deny the same rights to those in Kashmir, not Indian by descent or religion whose rights were denied them by the Indian incursion during partition.
No different to any colonial power.
The rights of the Pandits??? The rights of other Hindus who have fled??? Mehbooba had a campaign to invite them back-----did she really think any would dare.
Even a few years ago I met a family who had been burned out of their Kashmir home---they had lost everything.

If Kashmir became independent tomorrow Which do you think would be the first to take over----China or Pakistan???
As I said await the results of the election.

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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:28 pm
  #205  
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[QUOTE=EMR;12633663]
Originally Posted by Bipat

I do not answer your silly stupid questions designed to divert discussion.
Stop ramb,lng, stop inventing and maybe just maybe we could have and intelligent discussion with you.
Goa was no different from the state of India in the 50s, a state that relied on foreign aid to feed its people's.
But of course you will ignore facts, you are allergic to them...
A little fact for you, most of the nation's in the world are more prosperous and better off than they were in the 50s.
Guess want it has get F ALL to do with India ..
EMR again the insults ---read rule 1 of the Forum.

I was in Goa and several other Indian States in the 1960s , were you??
How do you know what Goa was like?

As I said OH travelled there every year since childhood are you discounting his and all other people's knowledge?
How do You know the poverty was not worse than surrounding areas of India
(Oh I forgot---they did have one thing others didn't ----alcohol)

Why is asking your opinion of Salazar "stupid"?----he was obviously involved----you are an expat in Portugal!!!

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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:32 pm
  #206  
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[QUOTE=Bipat;12633664]
Originally Posted by EMR

The rights of the Pandits??? The rights of other Hindus who have fled??? Mehbooba had a campaign to invite them back-----did she really think any would dare.
Even a few years ago I met a family who had been burned out of their Kashmir home---they had lost everything.

If Kashmir became independent tomorrow Which do you think would be the first to take over----China or Pakistan???
As I said await the results of the election.
You justify events in Goa over events that took place 100years ago but always ignore the facts that India sents its troops into Kashmir against the wishrs of thr majority Muslim population 70 years ago., promising them self determination which it never honoured.
Which country used its armed forces to repress those arguing for self determination, shot civilians, tortured and raped, was it the Portuguese in 1961 or India in Kashmir for decades..
Your last line confirms that for India , Kashmir has nothing to do with protecting minorities but simple playing the old
political game of aquring territory...
That's all it ever was about, denying Pakistan an area with a majority Muslim population and strategically important. for Indias borders.





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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:58 pm
  #207  
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[QUOTE=Bipat;12633668]
Originally Posted by EMR

EMR again the insults ---read rule 1 of the Forum.

I was in Goa and several other Indian States in the 1960s , were you??
How do you know what Goa was like?

As I said OH travelled there every year since childhood are you discounting his and all other people's knowledge?
How do You know the poverty was not worse than surrounding areas of India
(Oh I forgot---they did have one thing others didn't ----alcohol)

Why is asking your opinion of Salazar "stupid"?----he was obviously involved----you are an expat in Portugal!!!
When you deal in facts, stop rambling, inventing and diverting we can move on..
How do you know know who was also not in Goa in 1961 that it was poorer that huge area of the Republic that needed foreign aid for food..
Aid needed by India to feed its people's is a fact, unlike so many of your claims that are based on what you have been told by those lived in a tiny part of that huge country..
Salazar was a petty dictator, who oppressed millions, just like India in Kashmir., he used military force ( not in Goa ) to repress the native populations demand for self determination in its overseas territories.


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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:13 pm
  #208  
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[QUOTE=EMR;12633670]
Originally Posted by Bipat

You justify events in Goa over events that took place 100years ago but always ignore the facts that India sents its troops into Kashmir against the wishrs of thr majority Muslim population 70 years ago., promising them self determination which it never honoured.
Which country used its armed forces to repress those arguing for self determination, shot civilians, tortured and raped, was it the Portuguese in 1961 or India in Kashmir for decades..
Your last line confirms that for India , Kashmir has nothing to do with protecting minorities but simple playing the old
political game of aquring territory...
That's all it ever was about, denying Pakistan an area with a majority Muslim population and strategically important. for Indias borders.
The events in Goa did not just happen 100 years ago, they were still going on in 1960----it was still a colony of a power thousands of miles away, its people had NO freedom or self government.-----You seem to agree with this! No Goans were attacked by the Indian army.
As I ask yet again WERE YOU THERE?


So you are saying the minorities of Kashmir didn't matter?
It has always been administered by Muslims. Pakistan is at the border of India it is there regardless of the happenings in Kashmir, do you think China would allow an independent nation there? Pakistan already has half of Kashmir.

Why is there a good relationship between Bangladesh/Nepal and India if your border views are correct?

Whatever the arrangements of Nehru with the Kashmiri Muslim leader (and Nehru took the issue to the UN!) the situation now is what is important.

The army would not be there if there were no Pakistan incursions, bombing and terrorism.
The Indian army has committed offences---but much you have read is propaganda from elsewhere.

EMR tell us why the last Pakistan PM was making progress with discussions with Modi---came to Modi's swearing in, and then what happened???? the inevitable.
Now there is puppet PM, with the army in charge.

Wait until the upcoming election.






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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:26 pm
  #209  
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[QUOTE=EMR;12633680]
Originally Posted by Bipat

When you deal in facts, stop rambling, inventing and diverting we can move on..
How do you know know who was also not in Goa in 1961 that it was poorer that huge area of the Republic that needed foreign aid for food..
Aid needed by India to feed its people's is a fact, unlike so many of your claims that are based on what you have been told by those lived in a tiny part of that huge country..
Salazar was a petty dictator, who oppressed millions, just like India in Kashmir., he used military force ( not in Goa ) to repress the native populations demand for self determination in its overseas territories.
EMR can you read?---I know because I was IN GOA in the 1960s and in many other States in India. OH was visiting there continuously since a toddler.
I was there a month ago with relatives who never left!!!!

EMR I have/had contacts in more than half the States of India----
as an aside----(OH actually saw Nehru at close range ----one of his police protectors was a relative who let the young OH in to a speech occasion).

As you have confirmed Salazar was a dictator, he could have peacefully left Goa and saved the deaths of his own people.
Can you not accept EMR that people who live in India know more about their home land than you living in the UK!!!



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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:35 pm
  #210  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=Bipat;12633648]
Originally Posted by morpeth

The Philosophy was part of a MA at Kings College London.

I think everyone would be scared of a referendum now in Kashmir---The infiltration and violence orchestrated by Pakistan would be immense. The part of Kashmir taken by Pakistan is essentially part of Pakistan, it will stay as it is. Why can they not accept that they have half of the State?
The election is soon look at the results.
I think you make a good point, getting a referendum under international monitors would be difficult.

The Pakistanis could say the same thing as you, why doesnt India just leave or accept to hold referendum as India promised in the 1950's.

Last edited by morpeth; Feb 6th 2019 at 10:38 pm.
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