India and the Wars

Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:05 am
  #181  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
It is not based on "race". It is about the colonisation of a small group of people for the purpose of trade by a far off nation to the detriment of the indigenous population.
Why did the British leave eventually, the French peacefully and maintain a good relationship?
Morpeth I have a great indepth reading of Goan history, as I said our particular community come from there, after fleeing Kashmir from the Mughals
Any research by the community members has been hindered as I have said by libraries and documents burned.
Do you approve of this? Do you approve of the torture and forced conversions?
Yes all of it OK, with you but not the release into self government and being part of the government of India.
The simple fact first is India used force, whether justified or not.

Second, foreign rule may or may not be detrimental, it depends on the circumstances
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:06 am
  #182  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Now you are being childish- no one even remotely justified or supported torture.

India used force as it has elsewhere..
.​​​​​​
It wasn't childish to those who fled from it, from the Portuguese, into the surrounding areas. Many who moved back after the Portuguese left.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:07 am
  #183  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=Bipat;12633506]It is not based on "race". It is about the colonisation of a small group of people for the purpose of trade by a far off nation to the detriment of the indigenous population.
Why did the British leave eventually, the French peacefully and maintain a good relationship?
Morpeth I have a great indepth reading of Goan history, as I said our particular community come from there, after fleeing Kashmir from the Mughals
Any research by the community members has been hindered as I have said by libraries and documents burned.
Do you approve of this? Do you approve of the torture and forced conversions?
Yes all of it OK, with you but not the release into self government and being part of the government of India.[/QUOTE

You have a simple minded one-sided view of History.
In your strange view of India , the events taking place in Goa n the 17th century were not repeated anywhere else or it was OK for others living in the sub continent to torture, forcibly convert, invade each other's territories, create rival empires, create levels of intolerance and prejudice unequalled anywhere else in the world.
Hypocrasy or simple ignorance , ?
Your defence of Indian acting like a colonial power in Kashmir suggest hypocrasy..
Explain the difference between the actions of Dyer in Amrritsar universally condemned and that of the Indian Army shooting those demonstrating for self determination.. .
Just imagine the arnarchy n the world f if nation after nation decided to act military against a neighbour to redress events against its people's 100s of years in the past.
Call it accelerating the last of the colonial enclaves, tidying up the map, simple acquisition of more land and people's, PR for Nehru one thing it was not was freeing the people's of Goa from colonial tyranny. ..


Last edited by EMR; Feb 6th 2019 at 10:13 am.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:12 am
  #184  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Look at a map India is not a 'neighbour', Goa is part of India.
India has a history of using force, and avoiding referendums​.

You were the one who brought up race, that unfair for foreign occupiers were of a different race.

Just out of curiosity, in 1961 were Goans being tortured and forced to convert ? Unless I am mistaken didnt Nehru earlier promise not to use force ? Also , when was teh last time before 1961 that Goa was ruled by an Indian political entity of which the ruling class were indigenous to India ?
​​​​​
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:16 am
  #185  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Look at a map India is not a 'neighbour', Goa is part of India.
Part of the geographical area known as the subcontinent does not mean oart of India.
India as a self governing country did not come into existence until 1947..
The India of 1947 being a confederation of states who had never been unified until the creation of the British Empire of India..
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:19 am
  #186  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=EMR;12633519]
Originally Posted by Bipat
It is not based on "race". It is about the colonisation of a small group of people for the purpose of trade by a far off nation to the detriment of the indigenous population.
Why did the British leave eventually, the French peacefully and maintain a good relationship?
Morpeth I have a great indepth reading of Goan history, as I said our particular community come from there, after fleeing Kashmir from the Mughals
Any research by the community members has been hindered as I have said by libraries and documents burned.
Do you approve of this? Do you approve of the torture and forced conversions?
Yes all of it OK, with you but not the release into self government and being part of the government of India.[/QUOTE

You have a simple minded one-sided view of History.
In your strange view of India , the events taking place in Goa n the 17th century were not repeated anywhere else or it was OK for others living in the sub continent to torture, forcibly convert, invade each other's territories, create rival empires, create levels of intolerance and prejudice unequalled anywhere else in the world.
Hypocrasy or simple ignorance , ?
Just imagine the arnarchy n the world f if nation after nation decided to act military against a neighbour to redress events against its people's 100s of years in the past.
Call it accelerating the last of the colonial enclaves, tidying up the map, simple acquisition of more land and people's, PR for Nehru one thing it was not was freeing the people's of Goa from colonial tyranny. ..
Look at a map----Goa is not a "neighbour" of India, it is part of it!!!
They were in poverty until the Portuguese left. How is that NOT tyranny?
Look at Goa now ---one of the wealthier States, taking part in the government of ALL India.
EMR it is OH's history at least allow us to know more than you, who has an obvious prejudicial dislike of anything to do with India, judging by your innumerable posts.




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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:28 am
  #187  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
India has a history of using force, and avoiding referendums​.

You were the one who brought up race, that unfair for foreign occupiers were of a different race.

Just out of curiosity, in 1961 were Goans being tortured and forced to convert ? Unless I am mistaken didnt Nehru earlier promise not to use force ? Also , when was teh last time before 1961 that Goa was ruled by an Indian political entity of which the ruling class were indigenous to India ?
​​​​​
(I did not use the word "race".)
No, in 1961 the situation was not of the previous forced Christianity but the poverty was dire. There were so many of Goan descent who wanted to return.
Nehru tried negotiation----what is your opinion of Salazar-he knew he could not win a 'battle'.
I put a link about the referendum giving Statehood.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:30 am
  #188  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
It wasn't childish to those who fled from it, from the Portuguese, into the surrounding areas. Many who moved back after the Portuguese left.
No it is childish to say either EMR or I are supporting the use of torture. I assume naturally you do not support atrocities reported to have been conducted by the Indian army in Kashmir or elsewhere. If you cant win an argument with facts or logic you resort to calling people supporters of torture, or prejudiced , or anti India ​​​​​n.

Face it you are so pro-Indian that you can hold the view that using force to dominate others is wrong except if it is done by Indians.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:35 am
  #189  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
(I will find details of the discussed referendum later. I will find a link).
Could I suggest that you describe how Goa could survive as an independant country?
Do you know the size etc.? Goans are members of the Indian Government have been Ministers of State.
Tell me in what way are Goans any different from those living in neighbouring Karnataka in looks, language, inheritance, history etc. etc.
At least you have stopped considering them as Portuguese.
The Indian army, carried guns, the opponents were the Portuguese officials.

EMR by 1960 idependence was achieved by most of the colonies of Africa and Asia
from their European Colonial rulers. Goa was 1961 about time don't you think?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_...oll#Referendum
Size alone does determne whether a small state can thrive, Monaco, Singapore etc all show hat.
In any case India took over Goa by force, and continues to use force to hold force the Kasmir., used force to conquer Hyderabad, and covert force to interfere in East Pakistan- that was my point. .
As far as race you were the one (several times now) referring to Goans as brown people.


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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:51 am
  #190  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=EMR;12633519]
Originally Posted by Bipat
It is not based on "race". It is about the colonisation of a small group of people for the purpose of trade by a far off nation to the detriment of the indigenous population.
Why did the British leave eventually, the French peacefully and maintain a good relationship?
Morpeth I have a great indepth reading of Goan history, as I said our particular community come from there, after fleeing Kashmir from the Mughals
Any research by the community members has been hindered as I have said by libraries and documents burned.
Do you approve of this? Do you approve of the torture and forced conversions?
Yes all of it OK, with you but not the release into self government and being part of the government of India.[/QUOTE

You have a simple minded one-sided view of History.
In your strange view of India , the events taking place in Goa n the 17th century were not repeated anywhere else or it was OK for others living in the sub continent to torture, forcibly convert, invade each other's territories, create rival empires, create levels of intolerance and prejudice unequalled anywhere else in the world.
Hypocrasy or simple ignorance , ?
Your defence of Indian acting like a colonial power in Kashmir suggest hypocrasy..
Explain the difference between the actions of Dyer in Amrritsar universally condemned and that of the Indian Army shooting those demonstrating for self determination.. .
Just imagine the arnarchy n the world f if nation after nation decided to act military against a neighbour to redress events against its people's 100s of years in the past.
Call it accelerating the last of the colonial enclaves, tidying up the map, simple acquisition of more land and people's, PR for Nehru one thing it was not was freeing the people's of Goa from colonial tyranny. ..
Don't start on Kashmir it is too complex for you, the people there take part in elections. The majority vote for the status quo. There are terrorists coming over the border supporting those who disagree.
Do you really think a referendum could take place without major violence orchestrated by Pakistan?

The election will be soon, we are going there in May so I will report to you.

What do you really KNOW about Goa---were you there at the time of 'take-over, ' had YOU been travelling through Goa throughout your childhood to family temple----only 12 hour stay allowed?? Did your community leave to escape?

I think half-knowledge from a distance is more "simple minded" to quote yourself!

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Old Feb 6th 2019, 11:07 am
  #191  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Size alone does determne whether a small state can thrive, Monaco, Singapore etc all show hat.
In any case India took over Goa by force, and continues to use force to hold force the Kasmir., used force to conquer Hyderabad, and covert force to interfere in East Pakistan- that was my point. .
As far as race you were the one (several times now) referring to Goans as brown people.
Yes I apologise I did use the word "brown" to try to point out to you that the people of Goa are NOT Portuguese settlers but local Konkani/Marathi speakers. They had nothing whatsoever to do with Portugal when that country made use of them.

Have you any idea of the situation of Goa in 1961----there was nothing there!!! It is now a wealthy State. 'Ruled' by a Goan and taking part in the government of India!
What is your problem with that?

The force in Kashmir is against the terrorists from Pakistan and infiltration, atrocities have happened but with the propaganda from Pakistan the truth is not always possible to know.
Elections are regularly held. See above post.
East Pakistan---they wanted separation, the Muslims there have different origin from Pakistani Muslims.

Hyderabad---- violence I agree was threatened it wasn't used to my knowledge.


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Old Feb 6th 2019, 11:22 am
  #192  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
No it is childish to say either EMR or I are supporting the use of torture. I assume naturally you do not support atrocities reported to have been conducted by the Indian army in Kashmir or elsewhere. If you cant win an argument with facts or logic you resort to calling people supporters of torture, or prejudiced , or anti India ​​​​​n.

Face it you are so pro-Indian that you can hold the view that using force to dominate others is wrong except if it is done by Indians.
I didn't say that force is OK by Indians, however you out of ignorance you choose the wrong examples!!!!!

Certainly Indira caused great violence and paid the price, others also.

With Goa, negotiation was tried and continued occupation by Portugal was long unjustified.
Kashmir Pakistan is more to blame.

"So pro-India"----how many times have I said to you that I could write pages about what is wrong with India? ------you have never bl***y asked what!!!!!





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Old Feb 6th 2019, 7:47 pm
  #193  
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[QUOTE=Bipat;12633535]
Originally Posted by EMR

Don't start on Kashmir it is too complex for you, the people there take part in elections. The majority vote for the status quo. There are terrorists coming over the border supporting those who disagree.
Do you really think a referendum could take place without major violence orchestrated by Pakistan?

The election will be soon, we are going there in May so I will report to you.

What do you really KNOW about Goa---were you there at the time of 'take-over, ' had YOU been travelling through Goa throughout your childhood to family temple----only 12 hour stay allowed?? Did your community leave to escape?

I think half-knowledge from a distance is more "simple minded" to quote yourself!
Indeed the last thing you want to do is start a discussion on the shooting of civilians, women and children , the torture , the rapes carried out by the Indian army of occupation..
Amenesty international, the U.N. committee on human rights, countless other human rights organisations and observer hold a different opinion to you.
So it's obvious why you do not want a discussion on Kashmir..
Its very odd the lengthy demands you made for a referendum in the UK on the Lisbon treaty but shut your ears and eyes to a referendum on the self determination of the people's of Kashmir.
A plebiscite promised by Nehru but never granted, long before the rise of those who resorted to action having given up on the broken premises from the Indian government.


The republic of ndia is a country, the sub continent known as India s a geographical area, did,t you learn that at school....
Do you regard Bangladesh and Pakistan as India using the same definition you have for Goa..
" look at a map , blah, blah blah ).

Last edited by EMR; Feb 6th 2019 at 8:08 pm.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:04 pm
  #194  
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[QUOTE=EMR;12633627]
Originally Posted by Bipat

Indeed the last thing you want to do is start a discussion on the shooting of civilians, women and children , the torture , the rapes carried out by the Indian army of occupation..
Amenesty international, the U.N. committee on human rights, countless other human rights organisations and observer hold a different opinion to you.
So it's obvious why you do not want a discussion on Kashmir..
So because of restrictions on Indian citizens entering a the sovereign territory of another country, invasion was justified.

The republic of ndia is a country, the sub continent known as India s a geographical area, did,t you learn that at school....
Do you regard Bangladesh and Pakistan as India using the same definition you have for Goa..
" look at a map , blah, blah blah ).
1) Will be in Kashmir in 2 months time so will give you and update----the election will be over by then so you will know the result.

2) So when OH and others descended from those who had fled the horrors went back to their 'family temples' and relatives they were entering Portugal were they?

(Goa is now a wealthy State run by Goan----why do you grudge the people that?)









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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:15 pm
  #195  
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[QUOTE=Bipat;12633635]
Originally Posted by EMR

1) Will be in Kashmir in 2 months time so will give you and update----the election will be over by then so you will know the result.

2) So when OH and others descended from those who had fled the horrors went back to their 'family temples' and relatives they were entering Portugal were they?

(Goa is now a wealthy State run by Goan----why do you grudge the people that?)
Will you be in the areas declared off limits and dangerous beecause of the restrictions on the liberties of the inhabitants.
Come back and report if you are..


At that time they were entering the Portuguese territory of Goa, which had never been part of the republic of India there being NO Indian state until 1947..
The fact that you have inherited the grudges of the descendant of those affected 100s of years ago explains why you cannot see reason only ignorance.
I am sure if I went back far enough I would find some event affecting my great greats, but I am not so narrow minded or I'll informed to justify taking action today against the successors of those who were responsible centuries ago.
No one in a civilised society would defend my actions..
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