Armand Pizzoni

Hi All,

My earlier post seem to have vanished, so I am posting it again.

I am about to start my MSc in CS. If the migration regulations for
overseas students remain the same, I may be interested in applying for
a PR as a overseas student. But I will need 5 bonus points to reach
the pass mark. Will I be able to claim the needed bonus points under
'Australian Work Expereience' if I:

-work as a Java/J2EE programmer (SOL #2231-15)
-work 20 hours/week
-get paid for my work

Note that I cannot/will not work over 20 hours/week b/c of student
visa regulations. I've read in other threads that '20 hours minimum'
per week is considered to be the definition of 'employment' as far as
number of hours worked is concerned. Thus, the work experience can be
counted. However, my work experience of about 18-22 months will be
during my MSc course, and definitely before the attainment of my MSc.
So, taking this into consideration, will I still be able to claim 5
bonus points for Australian work experience if I were to lodge an
application once I receive my final results?

Regards,
Armand

Jaj

Experience pre graduation is not normally acceptable. But it may
depend on whether you already have a qualification equivalent to an
Australian bachelors.

I'd be interested to know how you plan to find this IT job,
considering the number of Australian IT professionals who can't get
work.

On top of that, studying for an MSc and working 20 hours per week
isn't especially easy.

Jeremy

    >On 2 Jan 2003 18:46:07 -0800, [email protected] (Armand Pizzoni) wrote:
    >Hi All,
    >My earlier post seem to have vanished, so I am posting it again.
    >I am about to start my MSc in CS. If the migration regulations for
    >overseas students remain the same, I may be interested in applying for
    >a PR as a overseas student. But I will need 5 bonus points to reach
    >the pass mark. Will I be able to claim the needed bonus points under
    >'Australian Work Expereience' if I:
    >-work as a Java/J2EE programmer (SOL #2231-15)
    >-work 20 hours/week
    >-get paid for my work
    >Note that I cannot/will not work over 20 hours/week b/c of student
    >visa regulations. I've read in other threads that '20 hours minimum'
    >per week is considered to be the definition of 'employment' as far as
    >number of hours worked is concerned. Thus, the work experience can be
    >counted. However, my work experience of about 18-22 months will be
    >during my MSc course, and definitely before the attainment of my MSc.
    >So, taking this into consideration, will I still be able to claim 5
    >bonus points for Australian work experience if I were to lodge an
    >application once I receive my final results?
    >Regards,
    >Armand

This is not intended to be legal advice in any jurisdiction

ptlabs

Jeremy,

I've looked through some non-Go8 universities' MSc in IT/CS curriculum, and it seems to me I had covered most of the 1-year or so course in my undergraduate degree's honours year. This isn't surprising, as many (non-Go8) Aussie universities market their MSc in IT programs as a legal and painless way to an Aussie PR visa.

If the MSc in question is one of those I've just mentioned, working parttime and attending classes at the same time won't be much of a problem, I guess.


Peter

lidleony

So, basically DIMA will count the work experience gained while studying?
I have the same problem, and my skill already being assessed and approved based on my undergraduate degree. Now i am in masters degree and also working 20 hours a week. i am planning to apply for the visa by the time i reached 1 year employment. so it is possible then?

Armand Pizzoni

Your point is well taken Jeremy. A question and a few comments...


    > Experience pre graduation is not normally acceptable. But it may
    > depend on whether you already have a qualification equivalent to an
    > Australian bachelors.

Without an equivalent Oz bachelors it would have been outright
impossible to be accepted in a MSc course. However, my 4 year
bachelors degree is in 'business' rather than CS. They accepted me on
the basis of having fulfilled the CS prerequisites that I took after
my bachelors. I also hold few vendor certifications from Sun (both in
Java/J2EE technology). Interestingly enough not only I had to submit
a research proposal, but had to persuade members of the faculty to
supervise my thesis. So, with this information, can I expect my work
experience to be counted for bonus points?


    >
    > I'd be interested to know how you plan to find this IT job,
    > considering the number of Australian IT professionals who can't get
    > work.


Fair enough. But I consider 'IT professional who can't get work' too
general and vague. If you can pinpoint a particular sector within the
IT labor market perhaps we will something to go on. Not all sectors
are having the same impact, obviously. I am assuming you are still
curious as how I plan to 'find this IT job'? One word-> NETWORK.
Being an alumnus of a top tier University in the US has its
advantages. We have an alumni office in both Sydney and Melbourne. I
am not sure how much you are familiar with 'almuni network' groups,
but this is how it works: the employers who have hired our graduates
post vacancies in our job database; then this information can only be
accessed by an alumni. I think you get the idea. Now, this does not
imply I will simply have a job waiting for me. I still have to go
through the dreaded interview process- probably three rounds.
Remember, sometimes its not 'what' you know but 'who' you know when
the competion is as good as you.


    >
    > On top of that, studying for an MSc and working 20 hours per week
    > isn't especially easy.

You are right, it isn't easy. But, I am glad you didn't say
'impossible'. Your statement is better suited for a 'puppy' and
definitely not for a 'dog'. If you have been around ppl who put in
70-80 hours/week at brokerage houses, consulting firms or an IPO
outfit with a limited budget you will know what I mean. And I've been
through that as an undergraduate and know what to expect. It's a bit
silly to think that I am still a 17 year old college freshman :-)

Armand Pizzoni

    >
    > I've looked through some non-Go8 universities' MSc in IT/CS curriculum,
    > and it seems to me I had covered most of the 1-year or so course in my
    > undergraduate degree's honours year. This isn't surprising, as many
    > (non-Go8) Aussie universities market their MSc in IT programs as a legal
    > and painless way to an Aussie PR visa.

By definition, MSc is a research degree vs. a Master of CS, which is
obtained by taking CS courses. I am assuming you are referring to the
latter. So, with that in mind, if you did Honors year with the same
degree of difficulty as a 'Research Thesis' all power to you. But, I
very much doubt that is the case here unless you can prove otherwise.
Why not post links to universities in question- both your university
and the universities with MSc in CS which resemble your Honors year
courses?


    >
    > If the MSc in question is one of those I've just mentioned, working
    > parttime and attending classes at the same time won't be much of a
    > problem, I guess.
    >


Don't always assume that students come to study in Oz to secure a PR.
Statistics-wise this will probably prove to be false as many return
home. I hope you are not stating MSc equals Bachelor's Honors year.
MSc is a 'research degree' (no coursework) whereas Honors year can
have both courses and thesis. The level of attainment for MSc is much
higher. My guess is that you are referring to Masters in IT which is
geared toward non-IT ppl with 'non-IT bachelors', who would like to
study IT.

As far as working part time is concerned, it is the 'most important'
aspect of the learning process. What is a better way than putting
classroom theory into practice through projects/duties at work? This
holds true only if one can find work in ones' industry. And that is
simply what I plan to do. Just for your information, top tier Unis in
the US such as Stanford encourages Masters candidates (MSc/MBA) to be
working part time with industry while conducting research. I am sure
you can figure out the advantages...the birth of Sun, Yahoo,
Google....ring a bell?



    >
    > Peter

ptlabs

MSc by definition does not only refer to research degrees. Coursework degrees are also MSc as well. If you look at many universities' awards, you will see this is the case. Definition of educational degrees aren't as uniformed as you think they are. Some universities confer M.Eng for engineering research degrees, while conferring M.Sc for coursework degrees, for instance.

Some MSc (coursework) from certain universities certainly resemble the honours year of undergraduate degrees from other universities. Universities are not created equal, as much as DIMIA would like to think they are.

Read my post again - I said 'some' not 'all'. I hope you can differentiate between these two words and their meanings. It's certainly not too difficult and they don't mean the same thing.

There's no need for you to be so defensive - I wasn't pinpointing you personally.


Peter

Jaj

Armand

    >Your point is well taken Jeremy. A question and a few comments...
    >> Experience pre graduation is not normally acceptable. But it may
    >> depend on whether you already have a qualification equivalent to an
    >> Australian bachelors.
    >Without an equivalent Oz bachelors it would have been outright
    >impossible to be accepted in a MSc course. However, my 4 year
    >bachelors degree is in 'business' rather than CS. They accepted me on
    >the basis of having fulfilled the CS prerequisites that I took after
    >my bachelors. I also hold few vendor certifications from Sun (both in
    >Java/J2EE technology). Interestingly enough not only I had to submit
    >a research proposal, but had to persuade members of the faculty to
    >supervise my thesis. So, with this information, can I expect my work
    >experience to be counted for bonus points?

Work experience does not have to be in the same skilled occupation as
the nominated occupation for this purpose. However, however, because
ACS assessments have a 'date of effect' on them (although yours will
presumably be a Group C assessment) it's really not clear how this
kind of experience would be assessed by DIMIA.

My suggestion is that you hire a good agent to handle your
application. It will probably be necessary to make a detailed case
referring to law and policy for the 5 points to be awarded, and if
necessary talk to people at a more senior level in the hierarchy than
a caseworker. You should also think about the possibility of an
appeal to the MRT (assuming an onshore application) if you can't come
to an agreement with DIMIA on this point.

I generally say to people that if they can afford to study in
Australia, they can also afford the couple of thousand dollars that an
agent will charge.


    >>
    >> I'd be interested to know how you plan to find this IT job,
    >> considering the number of Australian IT professionals who can't get
    >> work.
    >Fair enough. But I consider 'IT professional who can't get work' too
    >general and vague.

You seem to have your bases well covered. However, a lot of
prospective students in Ausrtralia have totally unrealistic ideas
about getting skilled work to support themselves (or earn points for
that PR visa) while on a student visa.

Jeremy
This is not intended to be legal advice in any jurisdiction

Jaj

It is sometimes possible, sometimes not. It depends on the
circumstances of individual cases and it's dangerous to make broad
assumptions in this area.

A problem with work experience is probably the most common reason for
refusal.

Jeremy

    >On Fri, 03 Jan 2003 17:26:58 +0000, lidleony wrote:
    >So, basically DIMA will count the work experience gained while studying?
    >I have the same problem, and my skill already being assessed and
    >approved based on my undergraduate degree. Now i am in masters degree
    >and also working 20 hours a week. i am planning to apply for the visa by
    >the time i reached 1 year employment. so it is possible then?
    >--
    >Posted via http://britishexpats.com

This is not intended to be legal advice in any jurisdiction

Armand Pizzoni

Good points Jeremy. I wasn't expecting anything more than what you've
just said from this NG. I think hiring a competent attorney (although
some are worse than leeches) may be the way to go.

Cheers,
Armand




    >
    > Work experience does not have to be in the same skilled occupation as
    > the nominated occupation for this purpose. However, however, because
    > ACS assessments have a 'date of effect' on them (although yours will
    > presumably be a Group C assessment) it's really not clear how this
    > kind of experience would be assessed by DIMIA.
    >
    > My suggestion is that you hire a good agent to handle your
    > application. It will probably be necessary to make a detailed case
    > referring to law and policy for the 5 points to be awarded, and if
    > necessary talk to people at a more senior level in the hierarchy than
    > a caseworker. You should also think about the possibility of an
    > appeal to the MRT (assuming an onshore application) if you can't come
    > to an agreement with DIMIA on this point.
    >
    > I generally say to people that if they can afford to study in
    > Australia, they can also afford the couple of thousand dollars that an
    > agent will charge.
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > >>
    > >> I'd be interested to know how you plan to find this IT job,
    > >> considering the number of Australian IT professionals who can't get
    > >> work.
    > >
    > >
    > >Fair enough. But I consider 'IT professional who can't get work' too
    > >general and vague.
    >
    > You seem to have your bases well covered. However, a lot of
    > prospective students in Ausrtralia have totally unrealistic ideas
    > about getting skilled work to support themselves (or earn points for
    > that PR visa) while on a student visa.
    >
    > Jeremy
    > This is not intended to be legal advice in any jurisdiction