Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

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Old Feb 12th 2018, 1:44 am
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Default Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

I know that this topic has been covered quite a lot, but I'm hoping I could get some clarification on the evidence required to prove my citizenship as I apply for a UK passport.

I'm Australian and my mother is (I believe) an Australian born Brit to two British parents. I have my grandfather's (mother's side) UK passport, that lists himself, my grandmother and my mother as British citizens (my mother was a minor). It's a family passport with a stamp that says 'No visa required, returning citizen'.

I also have evidence that my grandparents returned to Britain from Australia when my mother was a child and went through the process of registering my grandmother and my mother as British citizens to allow them to re-enter the country as part of a family application. This would mean that my mother became a British citizen via registration (not by descent or birth) well before I was born.

I also have a "Confirmation of British Citizenship" official document for my grandmother, which was stamped in Sydney before her, my grandfather and my mother relocated to Britain for one year. My mother attended public school in the UK for that year.

My grandfather was a German national who gave information and fought for Britain in the Battle of Britain, and was promoted highly through medals he was awarded, and became a British citizen because of this (before my mother was born). He never became an Australian citizen.

When I enter this information into the 'check if you're a British citizen' form on the UK government website, it returns that I should automatically be a British citizen and to apply for a passport.

I called the British Consulate but they forwarded me to the UK Home Office, but she also said that my mother HAD to have been physically born in the UK for me to be a citizen by descent which every piece of information I've read tells me is wrong.

This is what I've found to be most relevant regarding my mother's citizenship:

"There are several ways for children to become British citizens through registration. The most common routes have been described below.

Where one or both parents are applying for British citizenship they may apply for one or more children who are not automatically British at birth to be registered as British citizens as part of a “family application”.

Children in this category will be considered at the Secretary of State for the Home Department’s discretion and will usually be registered only if both the parents are granted or already hold British citizenship, or if one parent holds British citizenship and the other is settled in the UK."

At the time of registration both her parents would have been British citizens and I have the documentation for that.

Is simply providing the citizenship documents for my grandparents, my grandfather's UK passport that lists himself, my grandmother and my mother (as a child), and relevant military documentation for my grandfather enough to for me to be a 'citizen by descent' and be approved for a UK passport?

Thanks in advance, just hoping if some other people have been in a similar situation. My alternative is that I apply for a double descent Passport, but I'm not sure if not actively serving for the Crown but had been in the Crown's service throughout WW2 to be enough to be considered. I think my mother would have had to have been born while he was in service to the Crown.

My main concern is not being able to prove that my mother is a UK citizen by registration, and that she is a UK citizen by descent and that is how she is on my grandfather's passport, making me not a citizen at all.

I do believe though that my grandmother and mother registered as British citizens prior to relocating to Britain as it was supposed to be a permanent move, but had to return to Australia after one year for business reasons. This would make my mother a citizen by registration and me a citizen by descent.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 1:57 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

To be brief, it doesn't sound like you have a claim to British citizenship. Can you provide some years of birth and your grandfather's full name?
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 2:04 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
To be brief, it doesn't sound like you have a claim to British citizenship. Can you provide some years of birth and your grandfather's full name?
Mother born in late 50s, I believe they registered her as part of a family citizenship application alongside her mother in mid 60s when they decided to permanently relocate to Britain with my grandfather, a fully fledged UK citizen.

When I get in contact with UK Home Office I'll enquire how to find records of it.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:01 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by h3xtrooper View Post
Mother born in late 50s, I believe they registered her as part of a family citizenship application alongside her mother in mid 60s when they decided to permanently relocate to Britain with my grandfather, a fully fledged UK citizen.

When I get in contact with UK Home Office I'll enquire how to find records of it.
If your grandmother was born in the UK then why would she need to apply for citizenship?
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:08 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
If your grandmother was born in the UK then why would she need to apply for citizenship?

Ah no, my grandmother was born in Australia, she became a British citizen at the same time as my mother (when my mother was 13), in preparation to move to Britain permanently. I believe it was part of a family application, which would have been approved and ended up with my mother included in my grandfathers British passport alongside my grandmother
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:18 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by h3xtrooper View Post
Ah no, my grandmother was born in Australia, she became a British citizen at the same time as my mother (when my mother was 13), in preparation to move to Britain permanently. I believe it was part of a family application, which would have been approved and ended up with my mother included in my grandfathers British passport alongside my grandmother
Okay, so your mother was only born to a British father. If your grandparents married after 1949 then your grandmother would have needed to make an application to register herself as a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) through her marriage to your grandfather however your mother would have been a CUKC at birth by descent providing your grandparents were married at the time of your mother's birth. She wouldn't have needed to apply for citizenship (not that registration would have enabled her to pass on her citizenship to you in any case).

If your grandfather is deceased, is it possible you could provide his full name?
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:25 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Okay, so your mother was only born to a British father. If your grandparents married after 1949 then your grandmother would have needed to make an application to register herself as a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) through her marriage to your grandfather however your mother would have been a CUKC at birth by descent providing your grandparents were married at the time of your mother's birth. She wouldn't have needed to apply for citizenship (not that registration would have enabled her to pass on her citizenship to you in any case).

If your grandfather is deceased, is it possible you could provide his full name?
Ah that makes sense. Could you clarify what citizen by registration actually means? If all children born to British parents outside of the UK are citizens by descent, what use / function does the family application for citizenship hold?

Can provide full name in PM maybe..

Another question, but about UK ancestry visa. Would I qualify under these circumstances? Eligibility required a grandparent born in the UK, but I can't find information about a Crown Service veteran who fled Germany and became a British citizen following service.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:31 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by h3xtrooper View Post
Ah that makes sense. Could you clarify what citizen by registration actually means? If all children born to British parents outside of the UK are citizens by descent, what use / function does the family application for citizenship hold?
Registration can be thought of as a form of simplified naturalisation. It's usually where a person does not have an automatic claim to British citizenship at birth but by fulfilling certain criteria can acquired citizenship by making an application to the Home Office. It can also be used to make children British citizens (for instance if their parents naturalise as a British citizens) as minors cannot be naturalised.

Can provide full name in PM maybe..
That would be helpful, thank you.

Another question, but about UK ancestry visa. Would I qualify under these circumstances? Eligibility required a grandparent born in the UK, but I can't find information about a Crown Service veteran who fled Germany and became a British citizen following service.
A UK Ancestry visa requires you to have at least one grandparent born in the UK (or pre-independence Ireland). It doesn't appear that you would qualify.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:39 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Registration can be thought of as a form of simplified naturalisation. It's usually where a person does not have an automatic claim to British citizenship at birth but by fulfilling certain criteria can acquired citizenship by making an application to the Home Office. It can also be used to make children British citizens (for instance if their parents naturalise as a British citizens) as minors cannot be naturalised.



That would be helpful, thank you.



A UK Ancestry visa requires you to have at least one grandparent born in the UK (or pre-independence Ireland). It doesn't appear that you would qualify.
I have official citizenship documents that state my grandfather has full rights equal to any man born in the UK (it's worded very differently to my grandmother's citizenship documentation). Would this make a difference?
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:42 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by h3xtrooper View Post
I have official citizenship documents that state my grandfather has full rights equal to any man born in the UK (it's worded very differently to my grandmother's citizenship documentation). Would this make a difference?
For an ancestry visa? No, sorry.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:46 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Thanks for your time so far, really.

If my mother's CUKC citizenship was transferred to a full British citizenship, it doesn't make her a citizen not by descent?
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:48 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by h3xtrooper View Post
Thanks for your time so far, really.

If my mother's CUKC citizenship was transferred to a full British citizenship, it doesn't make her a citizen not by descent?
No. It's more complicated than this but if she was a CUKC by descent before 1983 then she would have become a British citizen by descent in 1983.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 3:55 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
No. It's more complicated than this but if she was a CUKC by descent before 1983 then she would have become a British citizen by descent in 1983.
Hmm thanks. In your opinion it's a lost cause? I may attempt to apply for a double descent passport?
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 4:02 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Originally Posted by h3xtrooper View Post
Hmm thanks. In your opinion it's a lost cause? I may attempt to apply for a double descent passport?
British nationality law is easily the most complex in the world and I don't have your documents to examine, but from what you've said, it appears so.

It is only worth applying for a British passport if you have a claim. It's important to know that, whilst often used as a shorthand, 'double descent' isn't used in British nationality law. There is 'by descent' and 'otherwise than by descent'. If your mother was born in Australia when your grandfather was in Crown service, for instance, then she would be British 'otherwise than by descent' even though she was born outside the UK. This would mean that you would have been British by descent automatically at birth.

If you could provide your grandfather's name I could do a little more digging and we could also look at the possibility of a claim to German citizenship.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 4:12 am
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Will confirm the details and send a PM when I get them, thanks again, I really appreciate the help. I have my grandfathers German name and his English name, but need to confirm German spelling.
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