Winnie

"sophia" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > As you said yourself it isn't possible for you to find yourself in this situation,
    > I am assuming you are past you childbearing years

If you mean I'm past my teens, you're quite correct ) However AFAIK I'm fertile,
although what that's got to do with anything I'm not sure!

    >It doesn't mean that, just because this girl has made a mistake, that she cannot
    >possibly be a productive member of society...the girl could be a member of MENSA and
    >still make this sort of mistake.

Not a mistake, a choice. Getting pregnant was a mistake - becoming another teenage
mother is a choice. And if she makes that choice her chances of having anything but
the usual grim existence are slim - see the other post in this thread about teenage
pregnancy and the outcome.

    >
    > Phew...that needed saying Winnie, I'm sorry, but what's that chinese saying "you
    > must walk a mile in another wo/mans shoes"....

Somehow I don't think they'd fit....

Winnie

Winnie

"Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > > I can see now why many kiwis and aussises feel the way they do about
    > immigration.
    >
    > At least the % of immigrants into OZ and NZ actually apply before they set sail,
    > I`m sure far more are going to be self sufficent than we here in the UK receive,
    > but lets not go there.......!?!?!?!

I hear that EU police are going to start patrolling the borders over there?

Winnie

Winnie

"Watt Dabney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > Winnie, I am well aware of the burden on society that is generated from teenage
    > pregnancies. Living close to a run down council estate my children share their
    > school with children from teen mums / single parent families / multiple fathers
    > etc. and we pay the price for this with lower than
average
    > Ofsted reports and SATS results.

Hey, that's nothing, I went to school with these people and was bullied and beaten
for not following the herd in having underage sex, getting knocked up, smoking
drinking etc. However I now have the last laugh, haha!

    >
    > However, you are well out of order by assuming that all teenage
pregnancies
    > will pollute the gene pool.

There's a lot of assuming going on but it's not by me! The gene pool is already on
its way downhill as there is no longer any natural selection, as most humans live
past reproductive age.

    >
    > Despite the low standards set for my children in their learning
environment
    > they are achieving academic and social successes beyond their years.

Since all parents say this it becomes a meaningless statement - how can they all be
advanced for their age???

    > When we become NZ citizens, grow old and die our legacy to NZ will be to leave 2
    > productive, valuable members of society.

Assumption. Also, given the world population crisis, producing more humans is not big
or clever. Or productive. In fact I think you may be confusing "productive" with
"reproductive".

    > What will your legacy be Winnie? A few NZ$ paid in taxes and the burden of dogs
    > to rehome?

I hope that it will be: no more extra humans, some well cared for organic land (left
to a trust), if I'm lucky some historic buildings ditto, one dog who will be provided
for financially and practically, and some happy friends and family. Best I can do I'm
afraid. Et tu?

Winnie

Winnie

"Elaine M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Please can anyone clear up an urgent query for me?
    >
    > I need to know if a (under 16 and still at school) teenage daughter who is pregnant
    > at the time of lodging a PR application can be regarded as a dependant?
    >
    > What happens when the baby is born - could it be included in the application as a
    > dependant of a dependant? No other means of support, and no ongoing relationship
    > with the baby's father seems likely at this point.

OK, I'm going to have one more go at replying to this, objectively this time,
although it all seems pretty obvious:

(1) Yes, your under 16 daughter is your dependent. Don't lie to the immigration
people about this.

(2) The dependent of your dependent is also your dependent. Simple logic.

Winnie

Amos

[email protected] (Elaine M) wrote in message > Thank you Sophia and others who have
given your sympathy and support.
    >
    > I am still hoping there is someone out there who can advise me whether I could
    > include my daughter (and in time, her baby) as my dependents.. I really can't
    > afford to invest (now) £750ish in an application if it's doomed to failure.
    >
    > Also, my daughter is painfully aware that as she is struggling to come to a
    > decision on what to do about the pregnancy while she still has a choice,this query
    > adds another dimension to her decision. Not an easy situation to be in at her age:
    > And it is her decision in the end.
    >
    > Please, can anyone give me an urgent lead on where to get an answer? Is it
    > worthwhile phoning DIMIA to ask?
    >
    > Elaine M

I e-mailed you my opinion directly but it looks like you never got it.

I'm not an expert, but from reading the guidelines from DIMIA (in the booklet and in
the application form), they talk about marriage and full-time-job as criteria,
nothing about having children, so my conclusion is that your doughter and her baby
would be considered as your dependend.

I don't think that you'll get a useful answer from calling DIMIA directly, as they
don't seem to encourage such queries. In any case I'd recommand contacting a
registered immigration agent and asking them for their professional advice (there are
a couple of them lurking in this forum which sound to be very knowledgable).

Hope this helps, and good luck,

--Amos

Adam

Well the EU`s policy is that all immigrants if they seek political asylum or refugee
status must declare it at the first EU bborder country they meet, now, since 99% of
them enter by land through france how come france didn`t get their request?

Because its us here that are the S U C K E R S and welcome them, "come, come, spend
some of the money our working citizens put into the govermnets bank"

Meanwhile we bomb their homelands with the US and then pay to rebuild them.

gggggrrrrr, don`t get me started 8-(

"Winnie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > > I can see now why many kiwis and aussises feel the way they do about
    > > immigration.
    > >
    > > At least the % of immigrants into OZ and NZ actually apply before they
set
    > > sail, I`m sure far more are going to be self sufficent than we here in
the
    > > UK receive, but lets not go there.......!?!?!?!
    >
    > I hear that EU police are going to start patrolling the borders over
there?
    >
    > Winnie

sophia

Winnie

I'd give it up now if I were you, your replies were quite lame to say the least...and also rude. How can you tell this poor girl to kill her unborn child without knowing anything of the circumstances surrounding what happened? I spent many years working in an abortion clinic and I've seen first hand what goes on in those places, so don't get me started! I am certainly sure that abortion should be available for anyone who wants it, but it is certainly not a decision to be taken lightly or just because she may become 'another' teenage mum and might hurt your delicate sensibilities.....try killing your dogs in cold blood....could you do it??? I think not, so please just keep quiet about this subject and let it go whilst you've still got some dignity left.

love sophia xx

rday

hey how about doing a 'kat' like in eastenders?

Bones

Winnie,

I must agree with Sophia, your arguments are redundant, middle-England, Daily Mail Reader nonsense and they betray a woeful lack of knowledge of the population crisis in the part of the world you have just moved to.

I wish Elaine and her family good luck with getting to Australia, because young people with young families are what that country (and NZ) desperately needs. The negative trend in birth rates across the more prosperous countries threatens all of our futures.

Regards, Pete.

newstartnz

I wish Elaine and her family good luck too but I must take you up on this last point. What do you mean and why? Wouldn't the world be better with about 3 billion population rather than soon-to-be 7 billion? I'm thinking resources, destruction of nature, quality of life etc. One of the main reasons we're so keen on NZ is that it's relatively barrenly populated (under 4 million and more or less the size of UK). Same would go for Aus, under 20 million and the size of W Europe.

About the only good reasons I can think of in terms of more people in the world rather than fewer is that more people certainly means more bright people who invent cool things, labour saving devices, entertainment etc - and in pay-for-your-parents pension model countries, more youngsters means oldsters get a better pension than if they had to finance themselves solely through their own life's work.

Can't think of many more. Can you or was it just empty thought? Your insistence on the qualifier 'more prosperous countries' struck me as potentially very stupid but I'll let you clarify that.

All the best

Bones

Ok Newstartnz I'll rise to the bait!

I was only summarising known facts and data produced by the UN. I used the term 'more prosperous' to indicate the countries some might term 'the more developed' or other ill-fitting description (no real 'insistence', honest).

Within these countries birth-rates are slowing or even producing negative population growth. As you put it 'more youngsters means more oldsters get a better pension' this is perfectly correct, but the implications of an increasingly ageing population are far more catastrophic than this.

Some of these countries have to resort to immigration to sustain them (thats why Oz and NZ want you - sorry if this is a bit of a shock to you!)

If you really want to become fully enlightened read - Indicators of Sustainable Development Framework and Methodologies published by the UN
in 1996.

regards, Pete

Wannastay

dont lump everyone into that basket. i now live in australia, i am not redundant, i dont read the daily mail and am certainly aware of the "population crisis" over here.

the "underpopulated" countries that you speak of require younger people capable of generating incomes thus pay taxes thus indirectly look after a rapidly ageing population. if they just required bodies, why have the selection / points criteria to move over ?

there are enough people already over here who are unable to pay their own way due to parenting committments (under educated, under priviliged single parents who are unable to hold down jobs because of their kids) - australia / nz doesnt require more of them !!!

i for one take offense that on a public forum like this people are slagged down for expressing their opinions. if you dont like them, dont read them. i tend to agree with Winnie on this - and before anyone starts making wild assumptions about my age/background/social standing/education/comprehension of the issues involved, they would be wise to ask before firing - i am a damn sight more knowledgeable about the UN et al than you would think.

parting shot to all those who get angry and disagree with people like Winnie - wind your necks in, dont be so arrogant as to assume that you represent some higher calling of societal values (which you dont), and learn to understand opposing points of view (if not necessarily accept them) - its a sign of intellectual honesty.

Or are the Pinko's starting to really push their socialist politics over there now ?!

newstartnz

OK Bones, fair enough, just as long as it wasn't starting to go down the moron James Bond route about one ethnic population being threatened by another's higher birth rate.

All the best

Winnie

"sophia" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Winnie
    >
    > I'd give it up now if I were you, your replies were quite lame to say the
    > least...and also rude. How can you tell this poor girl to kill her unborn child
    > without knowing anything of the circumstances surrounding what happened? I spent
    > many years working in an abortion clinic and I've seen first hand what goes on in
    > those places, so don't get me started! I am certainly sure that abortion should be
    > available for anyone who wants it, but it is certainly not a decision to be taken
    > lightly or just because she may become 'another' teenage mum and might hurt your
    > delicate sensibilities.....try killing your dogs in cold blood....could you do
    > it??? I think not, so please just keep quiet about this subject and let it go
    > whilst you've still got some dignity left.
    >
    > love sophia xx

Well that's a well reasoned argument for your point of view. For a start I didn't
tell Elaine's daughter to do anything. Secondly a foetus isn't a child - if someone
gives me a packet of seeds do I have to grow carrots???

As for the circumstances surrounding what happened, I'm sure we can all work that
one out )

Winnie

Winnie

"Bones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Winnie,
    >
    > I must agree with Sophia, your arguments are redundant, middle-England, Daily Mail
    > Reader nonsense and they betray a woeful lack of knowledge of the population crisis
    > in the part of the world you have just moved to.

Eh??? The population crisis is a global one, and results from too many people, not
too few. And I used to read the broadsheets, *if* you please.

    >
    > I wish Elaine and her family good luck with getting to Australia, because young
    > people with young families are what that country (and NZ) desperately needs. The
    > negative trend in birth rates across the more prosperous countries threatens all of
    > our futures.

No, NZ needs people who are prepared and able to *do* something, without
discriminating on age or reproductive status. How does just existing there help?

The negative trend in birthrate in some countries is balanced out manyfold by the
explosion in others. Finite natural resources do not respect national boundaries, and
neither will the leaders of countries such as India when they're standing shoulder to
shoulder and see available space elsewhere.

Winnie