Trebor Flow

We have been considering a life in Oz for many years now - like many we have been ready to go for it, then lost our bottle.

My wife is a Kiwi and therefore our children have got their NZ citizenship and passports. Unfortunately she has no formal qualifications and therefore has no path to PR. I'm 46 and have no formal qualifications but have been a private music tutor here in London for 20 years.

So our only opition is the "dreaded 461"

After reading further reading it seems that because our children are only 4 and 7 they would be in Oz before turning 10, and therefore would automatically become OZ citizens when they got to 10 (maybe I have that wrong - anyone?) Which means as Ozzy citizens they would be entitled to university education.

I feel fairly confident that they won't throw my wife out being a Kiwi, so the only risk must be me?

I just can't quantify the risk - I know some on this board thinks it's madness but is it.

I know if my wife dies - I can't go on to NZ - but to be honest I wouldn't want to - again the risk is hard to get a handle on.

Has anyone ever been refused the renewal of a 461 (providing they havn't held up the local ANZ bank of course :-) can the 461 be rolled on 'till the day I die.

? Can my children when they reach 18 (and are Ozzy citizens) sponser me to PR so to speak.

Maybe it's too bigger a gamble for a long term life - thing is, sadly it really is our only way to live in Oz.

Any thoughts would be kindly recieved.

Trebor

Veronika

Hi Trebor,

The "risk" is impossible to quantify because you cannot, in normal circumstances, predict factors such as a death of a partner or the end of a relationship. So with that in mind, I can say that we have had clients apply for the visa without ever worrying about the the "madness" of the move.

The 461 can be applied for again and again and again.... ad infinitum. Provided that you of course meet the requirements.

But of course permanent residence is always preferable:

Don't forget that there are other options aside from the skilled visa routes. In particular, the ENS or RSMS routes (both permanent visa options which rely on employer sponsorship).

You haven't mentioned what your wife does, so it is impossible to go into any more detail, but these may be worth looking into. Your wife may also consider studying so that she can become eligible for permanent residency.

Also, what about going to NZ first, obtaining citizenship, and then moving to Australia? I know it is a long haul, but have you considered this?

As for your children, yes, once they are Australian citizens they should be able to sponsor you for a parent visa. Provided of course that you meet parent visa requirements. It is a bit early to worry about this option, as I am sure that there will be a number of changes to the rules in the meantime.

But I think that you do have the wrong information about their eligibility. As far as I am aware the automatic acquisition of citizenship on 10th birthday only applies to children born in Australia on or after 20 August 1986, who did not acquire Australian citizenship at birth, and only if on their 10th birthday if they have been living in Australia for 10 years from birth.

I hope this has helped a bit.

Cheers,
Veronika

Trebor Flow

Thanks for the reply Veronika

I thought I might be wrong about the kids getting Ozzy citizenship, it did seems a bit too easy.

It's interesting that you know people who have gone on a 461 without thinking about it too hard. Taken a gamble. I think if it was just my wife and myself, we'd go for it - but the kids make it a bigger and harder decision.

I know they'd have a better life in Oz - but not if their Dad get's visa problems!

The closer they get to UK high school age the more the pressure I feel.

Trebor

JAJ

They won't become Australian citizens under this provision, as they were not born in Australia, presumably.

As NZ citizens they will be eligible for university education at domestic rates - under current laws - but will not receive the fee discount/deferral options available to Australian citizens.

Have you read the wiki article:
http://britishexpats.com/wiki/461_visa

Also, if your children are British born, then read:
http://britishexpats.com/wiki/New_Ze...hip_by_Descent

Has your wife got her British citizenship?

Trebor Flow

Hi Jaj

Ah yes - the bringer of gloom

But hey, you are right - I know you think the 461 is bad for long term life in Oz and to be honest on the face of it you have very valid and sensible points.

If we went it would be on the gamble that my wife could get into the kinda job that would lead to PR. Otherwise in the long term life would get difficult and without doubt expensive.

I post here in the vauge hope, I might talk myself into taking the risk, but then on reflextion it always seems like a "bad" idea.

The big shame is my wife lived in Oz for ten years, then left before the change of ruling on Kiwi's - she never bothered to get PR as it never seemed important.

Thanks
Trebor

JAJ

You must mean she never became an Australian citizen, if so, she's not the only one.

It's really your risk on the 461. Laws might change in future, then again, they may not.

Have you thought about migrating to New Zealand?

Trebor Flow

Hi Jaj

Yes I meant she never bothered to get Ozzy citizenship as like most Kiwi's there seemed no point. Duh.

I love Newzealand as a country, and at one time I would have only needed to live there for I think 2 years to get citizenship but now it's 5 YEARS !!

That's a long time when your already 46. plus the NZ economy is pretty bad compared to UK and Oz - my line of work relies on people having spare cash - which seems like very few people in NZ from my visits there. Where as in the big cities like London/ Melbourne/ Brisbane I know I can earn a living.

Also my wifes family is a NIGHTMARE! The idea of living in the same country as them fills me with dread!

I'm starting to fear we're stuck here in the UK. My wife is only 36 so if she can muster up the energy to study again we may have some hope.

Thanks for your replies
Trebor

Buzzy--Bee

Robert

Get your arse over here. I think you and I have discussed this visa for 2 years now. I have now been here 18 months and life just gets better.

Just do it.

Buzzy

Trebor Flow

Buzzy LOL

I've never met you, but I like your style (I'll buy you a beer one day)

If I remeber right, you have a path to PR don't you. We at this point don't.
I would have to renew my 461 time after time after time!!

However my wife is looking into what she can study that would give us PR, and maybe we would come sooner than later and she would study part-time in Oz rather than London.

Best
Robert

Mrs Kiwi

Hi Robert,

I'm going to Oz on a 461 visa in March - I figure I'd rather go to Oz any way I can rather than not at all.

The experiences of Buzzy Bee (who has helped & advised me also) and a good school friend of mine who has been living in Melbourne for 8 years on the 461 visa suggest that the 461 visa is fine, really.

Good luck
Kelly

Buzzy--Bee

....hopefully....

Buzzy

welshtony

Hi Rob

The two possible nightmare scenarios with renewing the 461 are:

1 Failing the medicals

2 re-marrying someone who is not a NZ nor Australian Citizen. (separating from your wife or if your wife passes away does not affect your eligiblity for a further 461)

If you were to fail the medical, the Minister MAY waive on the grounds that the likely medical costs are not "UNDUE" and any prejudice to access to health services for Australian is also not "UNDUE". I would like to think, but can not get it in writing for you, that in the case of a 461 who has been living in Australia for at least 5 years that no cost or prejudice would be undue.

The second scenario would be a major problem should you re-marry or meet the spouse definition of de-facto, and then you split up before getting a permanent visa on the basis of this relationship. This could be more of a problem for children on 461 visas who do not apply or qualify for NZ citizenship.

Oh, I just thought of another problem with the 461 - there is no review right on the on-shore roll-over application.

So I would not discourage from applying for the 461 visa but it would be a comfort to get some strategy in place for a permanent visa. This may be a way down the track like when one of your children qualifies for a skilled permanent visa or marries an Australian - you would then qualify for a parent visa. So the chances are you will eventually qualify for a permanent visa way down the track.

Regards


Tony Coates
MARN 0635896

Trebor Flow

Hi Tony

Thanks for the excellent reply.

I didn't realise that our children could sponser us, if and when they become Australian PR.

I mean my kids are only 4 and 7 so if the 7 year old got a skilled visa at 21 after university (I can't expect them to have to marry an Ozzy girl - although that might be likely) then I will need potentially 2 to 3 renewals of my 461!
Can that really be considered a long term path to PR?

Also by this:

I think you mean there is no right to appeal is they refuse your renewal? Is that what you meant.

Thanks
Robert

welshtony

Hi Robert

Yes. with two children (assuming neither you nor your wife have other chidren from previous relationships), when one gets P/R, you then meet the balance of family in that at least 50% of your offspring are resident in Australia. It is an expensive application (over A$70,000 if you apply as a couple) but you will possibly get eligibility for this later. With the health issue not a big problem (in my himble opinion) and the chances of you re-marrying a non-OZ/NZ citizen, I think no matter how long eligibility for P/R may take, it is a bit of a comfort and insurance aginst failing the medical - as some time in the long term, you will fail the medical.

That's right, no review right to the MRT if they refuse your on-shore visa.

Regards


Tony Coates
MARN 0635896

Trebor Flow

Thanks Tony

Lot's of things to think about there.
A$70,000 for a visa for the two of us!! WOW

It would definately be cheaper for my wife to study and get PR in here own right, she is only 36 so has a few years before the 45 cut off.

Thanks again
Robert