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Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Old Nov 21st 2019, 3:59 pm
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Default Yet another UK caution post for Canada

i am applying for PR under FSW program. I have a simple caution in the UK from 2014 for “pursuing a course of conduct which amounted to harassment” which has now been stepped down so my police certificate appears as no live trace. My caution will be eligible to be filtered fully from my standard and enhanced dbs check in 6 months, but not police certificate. I have also lived in the US for 5+ years and have no criminal record there. I am an Indian citizen. Can this caution make me inadmissible to Canasa? Do I need to apply for criminal rehab (it will take over a year!)....seems as if harassment offense is considered a hybrid offense in Canada. Pls advise! Thanks

Last edited by mais90; Nov 21st 2019 at 5:57 pm.
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Old Nov 21st 2019, 9:13 pm
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

You will have to submit Police Certificates from India, UK and the USA or any other country you have spent more than 6 months in. Read the question closely that deals with arrests, charges or convictions. IRCC will decide if inadmissible based on the Police Certificates submitted or will be submitted. A caution in the UK is treated on a case by case basis. A caution is an admission that you committed an offence but usually IRCC deem them not to be a conviction. They may ask for more info on the offence you were cautioned for. At the moment I would not be submitting an application for rehabilitation unless it is an INFO ONLY check.
Wait to see what happens when you submit your application.
Nobody on this site can give you a definitive 100% answer on how IRCC will decide if inadmissible or not.
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Old Nov 21st 2019, 9:23 pm
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
You will have to submit Police Certificates from India, UK and the USA or any other country you have spent more than 6 months in. Read the question closely that deals with arrests, charges or convictions. IRCC will decide if inadmissible based on the Police Certificates submitted or will be submitted. A caution in the UK is treated on a case by case basis. A caution is an admission that you committed an offence but usually IRCC deem them not to be a conviction. They may ask for more info on the offence you were cautioned for. At the moment I would not be submitting an application for rehabilitation unless it is an INFO ONLY check.
Wait to see what happens when you submit your application.
Nobody on this site can give you a definitive 100% answer on how IRCC will decide if inadmissible or not.
thanks, I’ve read sone of your posts on this topic and it seems as if your view towards cautions has softened. Do you think it would be helpful if I submitted a legal opinion from a Canadian lawyer upfront which states that I am not inadmissible? I’ll need to find that from the lawyer. But I think I should be. Or will it seem as if I am playing the issue up too much? Yes I have PCcs from all counties and the only offense I have is this caution. I also have my acro PCc (where it just says NO LIVE TRac) and SAR that just says I was arrested and given a caution for harassment. (Nothing else and no mention of any fear or violence caused)
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Old Nov 21st 2019, 10:01 pm
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Originally Posted by mais90

thanks, I’ve read sone of your posts on this topic and it seems as if your view towards cautions has softened. Do you think it would be helpful if I submitted a legal opinion from a Canadian lawyer upfront which states that I am not inadmissible? I’ll need to find that from the lawyer. But I think I should be. Or will it seem as if I am playing the issue up too much? Yes I have PCcs from all counties and the only offense I have is this caution. I also have my acro PCc (where it just says NO LIVE TRac) and SAR that just says I was arrested and given a caution for harassment. (Nothing else and no mention of any fear or violence caused)
My view on cautions has not softened as I work for CBSA not IRCC. Canada has no such thing as a Police Caution. The object of the caution was to stop clogging up the UK courts with cases so they said for certain offences if the person admitted the offence to the Police when interviewed then a caution might be offered dependent on the offence committed. If the person didn't agree then the Police would charge that person and let the courts deal with the offence.

From a Guardian article about 5 years ago

Up to 30% of the cautions, warnings and fixed penalty fines issued by the police are being used inappropriately to deal with serious offences and repeat offenders, say MPs.
The Commons home affairs select committee says it is alarming that some police officers using cautions and warnings to deal with offences involving violence, sexual offending and domestic abuse in order to save time.
But the police defended their use, saying that only 0.2% of robberies and fewer than 2% of sexual offences were dealt with in this way.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...iately-say-mps

Seriously a caution for robbery or a sexual offence and IRCC are saying well we don't believe the person should be inadmissible?

The IRCC Manual I am looking for is not online at the moment ENF 2 but there is a paragraph that says just because the Police/Courts in another country elect not to convict it doesn't mean the offence did not occur and under section 36(1)(c) says
committing an act outside Canada that is an offence in the place where it was committed and that, if committed in Canada, would constitute an offence under an Act of Parliament punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of at least ten years.
So got a caution for Robbery

Criminal Code of Canada

Robbery
  • 344 (1) Every person who commits robbery is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
    • (a) if a restricted firearm or prohibited firearm is used in the commission of the offence or if any firearm is used in the commission of the offence and the offence is committed for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with, a criminal organization, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of
      • (i) in the case of a first offence, five years, and
      • (ii) in the case of a second or subsequent offence, seven years;
    • (a.1) in any other case where a firearm is used in the commission of the offence, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of four years; and
    • (b) in any other case, to imprisonment for life.
  • Perhaps the example conveys my thoughts on certain Police Cautions issued in the UK.


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Old Nov 22nd 2019, 8:12 am
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Thanks. Appreciate your point and noted, but as you know, my case / intensity of crime is different. It’ll be useful to hear of people’s experiences with caution and how they came through. Like I said, only a couple come back to post / share their experiences.
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Old Nov 22nd 2019, 4:22 pm
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Originally Posted by mais90
Thanks. Appreciate your point and noted, but as you know, my case / intensity of crime is different. It’ll be useful to hear of people’s experiences with caution and how they came through. Like I said, only a couple come back to post / share their experiences.
There are several threads where people had cautions that didn't impact their applications.... and more anecdotal responses saying the same. Go to Search (blue bar) - advanced search - enter the word "Caution" select "Canada - tick child forums and search entire post - then 'posts' there are a lot.
https://britishexpats.com/forum/sear...rchid=12100514

One thing I would suggest is that you are totally honest on your application(s) and be prepared to give a full explanation.
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Old Nov 22nd 2019, 6:34 pm
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Originally Posted by Siouxie
There are several threads where people had cautions that didn't impact their applications.... and more anecdotal responses saying the same. Go to Search (blue bar) - advanced search - enter the word "Caution" select "Canada - tick child forums and search entire post - then 'posts' there are a lot.
https://britishexpats.com/forum/sear...rchid=12100514

One thing I would suggest is that you are totally honest on your application(s) and be prepared to give a full explanation.
well according to canada’s Definition all except 3/4 offenses are summary so if each offense is hybrid then everyone is deemed indictable...this is easy to measure when there are quantities involved but how do you apply this logic to simple assault, harassment....
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Old Nov 22nd 2019, 6:49 pm
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Originally Posted by mais90


well according to canada’s Definition all except 3/4 offenses are summary so if each offense is hybrid then everyone is deemed indictable...this is easy to measure when there are quantities involved but how do you apply this logic to simple assault, harassment....

You're not quite correct about all except 3 or 4 offenses being hybrid - it would depend on the level of the offense not just the offense itself. The Criminal Code of Canada : https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/

You received a caution. You declare the caution. You give the story behind receiving the caution. You tell them that it was out of character, you had never been in trouble before - or since... you could do that when applying for an eTA or PR application.. or if you are seriously concerned then you could make an application for rehabilitation and tick the box 'for information only' - you'll get a response with the decision as to whether you are able to enter Canada or not - and it won't take too long... a couple of months or so. If they deem you inadmissible they will tell you and then you would need to put in a full application (which yes, takes about a year). Or you can wait until they see your Police Certificate - that it says No Live Trace - and give the explanation then. Cautions have to be declared but from what I have seen, are rarely a reason for denying someone entry / making them inadmissible.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration...-activity.html

I know of several people who have received cautions (i.e more than 1 caution) who have applied for PR and gained it without issue, they supplied the necessary documents and explanations.

The choice is yours, nobody can make that decision for you.

Best of luck and do post back with the outcome

Last edited by Siouxie; Nov 22nd 2019 at 6:56 pm.
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Old Nov 22nd 2019, 6:56 pm
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Originally Posted by Siouxie
You're not quite correct about all except 3 or 4 offenses being hybrid - it would depend on the level of the offense not just the offense itself. The Criminal Code of Canada : https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/

You received a caution. You declare the caution. You give the story behind receiving the caution. You tell them that it was out of character, you had never been in trouble before - or since... you could do that when applying for an eTA or for an IEC or PR application.. or if you are seriously concerned then you could make an application for rehabilitation and tick the box 'for information only' - you'll get a response with the decision as to whether you are able to enter Canada or not - and it won't take too long...

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration...-activity.html

I know of several people who have received cautions (i.e more than 1 caution) who have applied for PR and gained it without issue, they supplied the necessary documents and explanations.

The choice is yours, nobody can make that decision for you.

Best of luck and do post back with the outcome
thank you, I hope you are right. Most people who Come post here either have cautions from youth (which are already ignored given the age) or have a caution or two from 10 years, which of course given length of time are ignored....
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Old Nov 22nd 2019, 8:07 pm
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

I’m interested that in my case since I am Indian and applied from India, will some India based officer try to understand / interpret my caution or will he she fwd it to his colleague in UK so that this can be done quickly / more accurately
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Old Nov 22nd 2019, 8:15 pm
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Default Re: Yet another UK caution post for Canada

Originally Posted by mais90
I’m interested that in my case since I am Indian and applied from India, will some India based officer try to understand / interpret my caution or will he she fwd it to his colleague in UK so that this can be done quickly / more accurately
Your nationality has no bearing on it, all immi officers (regardless of visa office) are following the same guidelines & regulations.

HTH.
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