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Will the my past control my future part 2

Will the my past control my future part 2

Old Mar 4th 2008, 6:34 am
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Default Will the my past control my future part 2

Thanks everyone for replying to my thread, i found your information interesting and very helpful. I have received a good balance of opinion from those who have responded and now i have to make my next step.

One thing that has come out of text, supported by the canadian government is that someone is unadmissable if "there exist reasonable grounds to believe that the person has been convicted outside Canada of two or more offences, not arising out of a single occurrence, that if committed in Canada would constitute a summary conviction offences under any Act of Parliament, where any part of the sentences imposed for the offences was served or to be served at any time during the five-year period immediately preceding the day on which he or she seeks admission to Canada [19(2)(b)(ii)]."
Ive never been to a magistrates, served any sentences or paid any fines for the cautions i received. I believe my second offence to be of such a minor nature that if it meant i could not pursue my dream of going to canada i would have to fight the caution in England till it was overturned. I have job offers from canadian employers who are offering positions which are in great demand in B.C. and Calgary and find it very difficult to get my head round the fact that breaking a branch when drunk is going to stop me from fulfilling the demand.

Does the immigration officer have any discretion in the matter?How much would it cost me to get everything in place and try and get a visa at the office?Has anyone had/heard of people being accepted/denied with a similar situation as myself? Would investing in a immigration lawyer/lawyer at this point be worthwile?How do canadian officals know what a caution in england is, in comparison to one in canada?How can i find out?

Thanks again for any assistance you can give me and wishes of good luck because by the sounds of this i might just need some.
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Old Mar 4th 2008, 7:21 am
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Personally I would just send off for a police check and see what it says. It's only £10 and takes a month or so. It may resolve the situation and stop you worrying. If you do have a criminal record for any of your offences you will have to apply for criminal rehabilitation at the appropriate time. You won't know until you get the police check done.
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Old Mar 5th 2008, 1:35 am
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Originally Posted by destinationnovascotia
Personally I would just send off for a police check and see what it says. It's only £10 and takes a month or so. It may resolve the situation and stop you worrying. If you do have a criminal record for any of your offences you will have to apply for criminal rehabilitation at the appropriate time. You won't know until you get the police check done.
Hi again

this post is sort of orthogonal to the thread but I'll include it anyway so the search engine picks it up.

I have a sort-of criminal past. However, now I've made my checks and done some due diligence it seems it's not nearly as serious as I thought. I hope this helps some other folks out.

Here's my offences:
a. 1982 - theft
b. 1990 - driving without MOT
c. 1991 - drunk
d. 2005 - speeding

Hardly serious, but enough to get you paranoid.
For example, I had interpreted my experiences as
a=arrested/reprimanded
b=charged/court/convicted/fined
c=arrested/cautioned
d=fined

But I have since learned my record is clean. So why no black marks? My policeman friend said that I have probably incorrectly interpreted what had happened.
For (a) I must have been detained and given a telling off. This is quite different from being arrested and reprimanded (a caution for youngsters).
For (b) Obviously there was no arrest.
For (c) Again, I must have been detained and told off. Turns out a caution has to be given by a seniorish officer and involves paperwork you take with you. What I got was a bollocking for being a d1ckhead off the duty sargeant.
For (d) Again, no arrest.

Now, my Canada situation: I am applying for PR via NS-PNP while in the shorter term I have to get a TWP from Halifax airport after a job offer and LMO. While both sets of forms ask questions about criminality, those questions vary. For the TWP it asks- (I paraphase and add my own emphasis):
(19.c)
"Have you... committed, been arrested or charged with any criminal offence...?"
To which I am putting "no". My reasoning is thus:
Offence (a) - I do not admit that I stole the item. I was with a friend who did. I was detained pending enquiries but was not arrested or charged.
Offence (b) - is not a criminal offence in Canada
Offence (c) - is not a criminal offence in Canada
Offence (d) - is not a criminal offence in Canada

The bar is set a bit higher for PR:
(IMM008A - 9)
"Have you... been convicted..." (or)
"been detained or put in jail"
I have to be a bit more up front so I have to put "yes". The reason being...
Offence (a) - I was detained but not arrested or charged
Offence (b) - is not a criminal offence in Canada
Offence (c) - I was detained but not arrested or charged
Offence (d) - is not a criminal offence in Canada

So, again, to the OP - - check your memory of events. Basically, you can be detained without a charge being levelled against you. To be arrested you must be charged with a crime. To be cautioned you need to have faced a senior guy and be given a piece of paper.

If anything I have been too honest and haven't been fully aware of my rights or the criminal process. My police friend basically laughed at me when I mentioned my concerns.

In the clear, then - TOUCH WOOD!

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Old Mar 5th 2008, 2:09 am
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Originally Posted by destinationnovascotia
Personally I would just send off for a police check and see what it says. It's only £10 and takes a month or so. It may resolve the situation and stop you worrying. If you do have a criminal record for any of your offences you will have to apply for criminal rehabilitation at the appropriate time. You won't know until you get the police check done.
Absolutely.You could be worrying over nothing.Get your police check done
first and take it from there.Mine came up clean after worrying I too would show a hick up with the british transport police some time ago.
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Old Mar 5th 2008, 2:10 am
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Originally Posted by wbexpat
Hi again

this post is sort of orthogonal to the thread but I'll include it anyway so the search engine picks it up.

I have a sort-of criminal past. However, now I've made my checks and done some due diligence it seems it's not nearly as serious as I thought. I hope this helps some other folks out.

Here's my offences:
a. 1982 - theft
b. 1990 - driving without MOT
c. 1991 - drunk
d. 2005 - speeding

Hardly serious, but enough to get you paranoid.
For example, I had interpreted my experiences as
a=arrested/reprimanded
b=charged/court/convicted/fined
c=arrested/cautioned
d=fined

But I have since learned my record is clean. So why no black marks? My policeman friend said that I have probably incorrectly interpreted what had happened.
For (a) I must have been detained and given a telling off. This is quite different from being arrested and reprimanded (a caution for youngsters).
For (b) Obviously there was no arrest.
For (c) Again, I must have been detained and told off. Turns out a caution has to be given by a seniorish officer and involves paperwork you take with you. What I got was a bollocking for being a d1ckhead off the duty sargeant.
For (d) Again, no arrest.

Now, my Canada situation: I am applying for PR via NS-PNP while in the shorter term I have to get a TWP from Halifax airport after a job offer and LMO. While both sets of forms ask questions about criminality, those questions vary. For the TWP it asks- (I paraphase and add my own emphasis):
(19.c)
"Have you... committed, been arrested or charged with any criminal offence...?"
To which I am putting "no". My reasoning is thus:
Offence (a) - I do not admit that I stole the item. I was with a friend who did. I was detained pending enquiries but was not arrested or charged.
Offence (b) - is not a criminal offence in Canada
Offence (c) - is not a criminal offence in Canada
Offence (d) - is not a criminal offence in Canada

The bar is set a bit higher for PR:
(IMM008A - 9)
"Have you... been convicted..." (or)
"been detained or put in jail"
I have to be a bit more up front so I have to put "yes". The reason being...
Offence (a) - I was detained but not arrested or charged
Offence (b) - is not a criminal offence in Canada
Offence (c) - I was detained but not arrested or charged
Offence (d) - is not a criminal offence in Canada

So, again, to the OP - - check your memory of events. Basically, you can be detained without a charge being levelled against you. To be arrested you must be charged with a crime. To be cautioned you need to have faced a senior guy and be given a piece of paper.

If anything I have been too honest and haven't been fully aware of my rights or the criminal process. My police friend basically laughed at me when I mentioned my concerns.

In the clear, then - TOUCH WOOD!

A great and helful post!
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Old Mar 5th 2008, 5:11 am
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Have any of you guys considered Australia? They have a tradition of taking in convicts.

Oh, cheap shot!
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Old Mar 5th 2008, 5:18 am
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Don't mean to sound picky WBexpat but will putting 'not a criminal offence in Canada' come across as a bit holier than thou type attitude.

Maybe it isn't a criminal offence in Canada but maybe the wording could be changed a little so as not to seem as though your saying 'you guys don't count this so it doesn't matter'.

Just a thought
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Old Mar 6th 2008, 4:38 am
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Originally Posted by bazzz
Have any of you guys considered Australia? They have a tradition of taking in convicts.

Oh, cheap shot!
I can never trust an Australian. I just cannot trust a genepool made out of people who got caught.
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Old Mar 6th 2008, 4:45 am
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Originally Posted by destinationnovascotia
Personally I would just send off for a police check and see what it says. It's only £10 and takes a month or so. It may resolve the situation and stop you worrying. If you do have a criminal record for any of your offences you will have to apply for criminal rehabilitation at the appropriate time. You won't know until you get the police check done.
or he could send for the new one its £ 35.00 for the 10 days one or £ 75.00 for 48 hours theres a thread on here just look for it sorry i don't know how to copy that has dealt with this and has the addresses and such good luck
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Old Mar 6th 2008, 10:02 am
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Originally Posted by wbexpat
To be arrested you must be charged with a crime. To be cautioned you need to have faced a senior guy and be given a piece of paper.
Just to clarify - you can still be arrested for something, but end up not being charged with any offences. You can be arrested on suspicion of committing an offence - but after interview and enquiries - you may not be charged with anything .... quite a common occurrence.

So if a form asks if you were arrested, I guess you have to say 'yes' - and if the form asks if you have any convictions - you would then say 'no' !!
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Old Mar 6th 2008, 10:24 pm
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Originally Posted by mandymoochops
Don't mean to sound picky WBexpat but will putting 'not a criminal offence in Canada' come across as a bit holier than thou type attitude.

Maybe it isn't a criminal offence in Canada but maybe the wording could be changed a little so as not to seem as though your saying 'you guys don't count this so it doesn't matter'.

Just a thought
On the contrary. I am looking at the matter from the Canadian perspective.

I would remind you that if you've ever exceeded the speed limit or been drunk in the street you are just as "criminal" as I am.

For example, the PR form it asks "have you ever committed an offence?". Did you or do you intend to write down every occasion you went over the speed limit or had a couple too many and a sing-song on the way home?

Why not? Are you saying "you guys will never find out about it so it doesn't matter?".

Or perhaps you have led a blameless life. Crumbs. You would be in a minority!
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Old Mar 6th 2008, 10:40 pm
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Default Re: Will the my past control my future part 2

Originally Posted by ann m
Just to clarify - you can still be arrested for something, but end up not being charged with any offences. You can be arrested on suspicion of committing an offence - but after interview and enquiries - you may not be charged with anything .... quite a common occurrence.

So if a form asks if you were arrested, I guess you have to say 'yes' - and if the form asks if you have any convictions - you would then say 'no' !!

I think the problem is the police sometimes don't do things by the book (and to be fair there are times when it's best not to).

There is some debate about what consitutes a "Terry" stop ("detained") and an "Arrest" where Miranda rights have to be read and all that. In my case I was never read any rights, wasn't given any documents to take with me or or anything. And there's nothing on my record.

So, like I said, when I asked my police friend, he just said the first thing that came to him which was - "well, you clearly weren't arrested then". I was pretty flummoxed but it seems being detained and arrested in the UK for very minor stuff (high jinks type stuff) are indistinguishable because the police are half the time trying to act authoritatively while simultaneously trying keep a straight face. So you get these half-arsed "arrests" which later just turn into a bit of banter at the station. You sleep it off, the sargeant gives you a bollocking and you wander off into the morning air looking for a night bus. Meanwhile the lads are having a coffee and a laugh at the expense of "that kn0bhead in cell 5".
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