UK application: questions

Old Jul 18th 2005, 10:04 am
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Default UK application: questions

Hi,

After a year of deliberating and two trips to B.C. just to be sure, my girlfriend and I have decided to start the long trek towards PR in Canada...we know we're in for a long wait, but its gonna be worth it.

I'm 34 and my girlfriend is 28; her time at university and French language skills means she scores far higher than I, so I will be going through as spouse.

We think we will have everything ready to send off at the begining of September , but have a few outstanding questions that I hope some of you, particularly those that have applied in the UK, will be able to help us with;

1. I have to supply the address of everywhere I've lived since I was 18, but this is proving a bit difficult due to a few months spent on friend's sofas and generally having moved around a bit. Should I only include addresses where mail has been delivered to me...bank statements, utility bills etc? How much detail and continuity are they looking for?

2. We both work in local government, but we don't know if this counts as 'Civil Service' as far as the forms interpret it?

3. With regards to police checks, are 'conditional discharges' taken into account if the conditions were not broken and no further action was taken?

I'm absolutely sure more questions will arise as we progress!

Many thanks

M & J
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Old Jul 18th 2005, 11:54 am
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Originally Posted by M_and_J
Hi,

After a year of deliberating and two trips to B.C. just to be sure, my girlfriend and I have decided to start the long trek towards PR in Canada...we know we're in for a long wait, but its gonna be worth it.

I'm 34 and my girlfriend is 28; her time at university and French language skills means she scores far higher than I, so I will be going through as spouse.

We think we will have everything ready to send off at the begining of September , but have a few outstanding questions that I hope some of you, particularly those that have applied in the UK, will be able to help us with;

1. I have to supply the address of everywhere I've lived since I was 18, but this is proving a bit difficult due to a few months spent on friend's sofas and generally having moved around a bit. Should I only include addresses where mail has been delivered to me...bank statements, utility bills etc? How much detail and continuity are they looking for?

2. We both work in local government, but we don't know if this counts as 'Civil Service' as far as the forms interpret it?

3. With regards to police checks, are 'conditional discharges' taken into account if the conditions were not broken and no further action was taken?

I'm absolutely sure more questions will arise as we progress!

Many thanks

M & J
First of all, good luck.
1, Include every address where you paid bills/council tax/can prove residence and can be traced to.
2, Not sure but probably.
3, You have to mention them as they will be on the official police check form you need to send with your application, however they will not be taken into account as they are not a conviction.
HTH although i'm not an expert i believe it is correct
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Old Jul 18th 2005, 7:50 pm
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Hi

I can't answer your questions but just want to say welcome to the forum. I am a newbie too and plan to get our forms in around the same time.

So welcome to a fellow newcomer. Hopefully one day we'll be the ones screaming "GOT IT" on these boards!!

Kaz x
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Old Jul 18th 2005, 11:03 pm
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Hi folks, As Kaz said above, welcome to the forum, hope you find this and the Canaadian lifestyle forum to be helpful, there are some very useful helpful people around and you can glean load of info from them.

If it helps any we are also moving to B.C. hopefully late August > all things being equal (to Kelowna in the sunny Okanagan metropolis ).


Ref Q1...only really where you have been 'resident' not as sofa loafer etc unless for some very long period of time. Bits and bobs not relevant.

Q2. yep civil servant, anything in gov't circles, funded by the 'public purse' is generally classed as civil servant, unless working as consultant or working for private company on project for gov't dept.

Q3. police checks will qualify your full record if you ask for full disclosure on the form not just convictions and arrests record. Mainly, people in UK get convictions and arrests info only as that is standard for most peoples needs. Other records might come up in deeper intense security check so honestly is always the best policy.

Good luck,

Rich.

Last edited by Rich_007; Jul 18th 2005 at 11:10 pm.
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Old Jul 19th 2005, 12:18 am
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Originally Posted by Rich_007
Q3. police checks will qualify your full record if you ask for full disclosure on the form not just convictions and arrests record. Mainly, people in UK get convictions and arrests info only as that is standard for most peoples needs. Other records might come up in deeper intense security check so honestly is always the best policy.
Rich_007,

Interesting point about "full disclosure". When I applied for subject access last year I do not recall any option to have "full disclosure"...

..Just checked the Wiltshire Constabulary form online and found the only options are "Information held on the Police National Computer" and "Information held by Wiltshire Constabulary"

Out of interest, what is full disclosure and how does it differ from the options I listed off the Wiltshire Constabulary form ?

Thanks.
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Old Jul 19th 2005, 12:34 am
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Thanks for the warm welcome and wishes of good luck guys, most appreciated

I'll trawl though all my old bills etc this evening to piece together my previous addresses - I think I'll have a couple of cold beers to hand for this exercise as it's going take a while!

As for the police check, I am advised that *certain* conditional discharges are kept on record for life, I'm hoping mine does not fall into that category. I found this post during a Google search explaining the Canadian view on the subject, which makes me feel a little better;

"In the Canadian judicial system there are Discharges , Absolute and
Conditional.. If a person in Canada is given a discharge no conviction is
registered in the persons name and therefore a person is not inadmissible to
Canada for reasons of criminality. If a Brit discharge is the same or
similar to a Canadian discharge and there is no conviction then you should
be okay. Visa officers look at the comparability of foreign and Canadian
laws when deciding criminal admissibility. The emphasis in Immigration law
is on convictions.
Jim Metcalfe , Consultant and former visa officer"

So fingers crossed!

M
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Old Jul 19th 2005, 12:53 am
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Default Re: UK application: questions

When we submitted the Staffs police form there were numerous options listed as well as the standard arrests and convictions 'tick box'. They changed the form, from when we first applied in Nov 03 with our original form, as we sent updated forms off to CIC in March 05 just to be suer we didn't get a request from CIC for updated ones (thinking this might slow our visa down).

Can't really remember what the changes on the form were tho. It was something like 'all data held by Staffordshire Constabulary' with clauses like excluding the use of such data for crime detection and prevention of crime purposes. Certainly was a different form tho and there were clear differences betweek standard tick boxes and extra options, it even had space where you could write in specifics.

ps should have explained, 'full disclosure' is my term, by that I meant that the applicant asks for all details to be disclosed whether criminal conviction, caution, or for wearing plastic bobby's helmet on head during crazed sag night in Womboure

Rich.

Last edited by Rich_007; Jul 19th 2005 at 12:55 am.
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Old Jul 19th 2005, 1:14 am
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Originally Posted by Rich_007
When we submitted the Staffs police form there were numerous options listed as well as the standard arrests and convictions 'tick box'. They changed the form, from when we first applied in Nov 03 with our original form, as we sent updated forms off to CIC in March 05 just to be suer we didn't get a request from CIC for updated ones (thinking this might slow our visa down).

Can't really remember what the changes on the form were tho. It was something like 'all data held by Staffordshire Constabulary' with clauses like excluding the use of such data for crime detection and prevention of crime purposes. Certainly was a different form tho and there were clear differences betweek standard tick boxes and extra options, it even had space where you could write in specifics.

ps should have explained, 'full disclosure' is my term, by that I meant that the applicant asks for all details to be disclosed whether criminal conviction, caution, or for wearing plastic bobby's helmet on head during crazed sag night in Womboure

Rich.
Rich,

If you check the boxes:
All National Stuff
and
All Local Stuff

How much more info can there be held ?

Are you saying that in addition to checking the two (or more) boxes you need to be explicit and ask for everything ?

Regards.
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Old Jul 19th 2005, 1:26 am
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Originally Posted by smitp11
Rich,

If you check the boxes:
All National Stuff
and
All Local Stuff

How much more info can there be held ?
Well, there is certain information that police forces hold on individuals that isn't a conviction, caution, arrest, etc. Surveillence of naughty boys & girls, records, movements, activities, associations, etc. Say, anti-globalisation protesters, anarchists, etc, as well as the obvious' active criminal element' (and by this I don't mean someone with a pretty inoffensive years-old minor level caution etc).

You can ask for this other info via the form, but if there's anything of use to the police, the dormant stuff is usually wiped off record after 7 years (say like a section 60 search record) then they're unlikely to release this other stuff to you as they're not actually legally obliged to. Any underlying 'naughtiness' will usually come up via the deeper 'security check' if it's worth a scrap to anyone looking at UK citizens' activities.

Also depends how the force lays out the form, as explained the Staffs Police one changed over two years and not all are going to be the same, or were the same at the same time.

Just depends how much info you want/can get and whether this is just for arrests and/or cautions and/or convictions. All the trivial stuff is usually a worry about nothing.

Rich.
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Old Jul 19th 2005, 2:09 am
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Rich,

It seems to make more sense now. After reading your posts, I called Wiltshire Police and asked what was covered under the Police National Computer option. She said it covers Convictions, Prosecutions and Cautions. I confirmed this by looking at the Met Office Subject Access form:

http://www.met.police.uk/dataprotect...b_revised_.pdf

On page 2, it essentially states what is included. Any other info has to be explicity asked for, so you need to know what you have been up to, before you can ask for it. I'm sure CHC are looking for security risks, terrorists, political activists etc...

Regards.
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Old Jul 19th 2005, 2:34 am
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Originally Posted by smitp11
On page 2, it essentially states what is included. Any other info has to be explicity asked for, so you need to know what you have been up to, before you can ask for it. I'm sure CHC are looking for security risks, terrorists, political activists etc...

Regards.
Exactly...it's just a catch:22

Say, a protestor at Gleneagles is caught on video assaulting the police.

Under freedom of info (subject access) they can apply for £10 payment to have access to that video.

But in the process they I.D. themsleves to the police by asking for same.

Rich nobody but the security services knows the level of detail of data that is held electroniclly and on paper.
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Old Jul 19th 2005, 3:28 am
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Default Re: UK application: questions

Hi again

Sorry for starting a confusing post!

My understanding is that, by default, all you get for your £10 is a list of convictions against you, otherwise known as your 'criminal record'.

According to the forms I have from Notts Police, the purpose of the 'other information' type request is to find out if you are on their records as having;

Reported a crime
Witnessed a crime
Been the victim of a crime
Been accused of a crime that went no further

...I guess this information takes longer to retrieve and is actually of little interest to the immigration people, which is why its seperate.

Hope this clarifies things!

Cheers

M

Last edited by M_and_J; Jul 19th 2005 at 3:30 am.
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