hopeintoronto

Guys I have good news! Soooo...

Good news: COPR arrived today (took less than a week to get here!) = excellent

Not so good news: I only have conditional PR - which is funny, as I have been in a relationship with my spouse for over 5 years (but only married for 1). I'm nervous about this, as I have to travel a lot for work and I've heard that if you're away for longer than 2 weeks, then this can be revoked.

Does anyone have any further knowledge on conditional PR? I've just done a quick google search and I can't find much clarification on the matter. Would love to hear thoughts!

SchnookoLoly

Yay! Excellent news.

Unfortunately, no one is going to be able to give you anything useful. The rule about conditional PR only came into effect for applications received after 25 October 2012. Those applications would have had PR around March-ish 2013, and conditional PR is 2 years from then, so March-ish 2015 really until we start hearing anecdotal evidence, or even later for the publishing of appeals cases, for people who have run into trouble with the requirements of conditional PR. So really it's going to be anyone's guess.

If it were me, I'd personally be going with the rules for how CIC determines common-law status for other PR applications, which, as you say, they can get grumpy about anything over 2 weeks. However, travel for work might be viewed differently, although I don't know for sure about that. I know the UK makes SOME exceptions for work travel but not all the time, and with CL applications, CIC is not exactly known for being lenient on the rules.

So it's anyone's guess but my advice is better safe than sorry. Is your travel within Canada, or outside of Canada?

For conditional PR, if you applied as married and have been married for less than 2 years then you're on conditional PR unless you have children. If you applied as CL then you have to have been CL for at least 2 years, else conditional PR. You applied as married and haven't been married for 2 years, so yep, you get conditional PR.

Queen_E

We got our COPR in the mail yesterday! It would have probably arrived last Friday if it weren't for the long weekend, making it about a week to deliver (we're in Toronto). We got conditional as well, since we're married for less than two years.

So relieved though!

burks

Congratulations to you both!

Quick question.. How do you know if it is conditional or not? I can't seem to tell If I am or not.. Assuming I am though.


I flagpoled yesterday at the border. Was a pleasant experience! The Americans gave me an Administrative Refusal (hope this doesn't lead to questions in future at border.. does this mean that I have to answer 'yes' if asked if I have ever been denied entry!? haha). The American border guy even helped us cut in line going back into Canada!

Going back into Canada I went inside and the guy asked me the 2 questions on the COPR.. arrests and dependents. I wrote 'No' and initialed next to both, he then asked a couple basic how do you know your sponsor questions and that was that! Took no more than 15 mins. Had a good laugh with the border agent as he was stapling and folding the COPR into my passport! It seems the paper gets bigger each time I get they staple something in!

derrykboyd

A quick Google search brings me to this definition on the CIC website...

"Cohabitation Means to “live together.” Two people who are cohabiting have combined their affairs and set up their household together in one dwelling.
While cohabitation means living together continuously, from time to time, one or the other partner may have left the home for work or business travel, family obligations and so on. Any periods of separation must be temporary and short."

From this I would say that trips for work wouldn't cause any problems with the conditional PR as long as you are not away for months at a time. Although the definition of 'short' is not given anywhere so I guess that is open to interpretation. I think the more important thing is maintaining evidence of combined affairs... Joint bank accounts, joint mortgage/lease, joint utilities etc.

SchnookoLoly

The occasional business trip for 2-3 days, or someone going on a "lads weekend" for 2-3 days or whatever isn't going to cause any issues. However, if you travel all the time for work and are gone 2-3 weeks at a time, THAT is going to cause issues. Generally speaking, "short" for CIC has seemed to be "single digits" - so basically one week or less apart, and certainly not all the time. (Going away for a week, the coming home for a weekend, and leaving again straight away would not be a good idea.)

Former Lancastrian

Work this one out if you can which I tend to think will be the subject of appeals with the new Conditional PR procedures.

This is basically what CIC are saying as per this Operational Bulletin
Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) has introduced amendments to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations (the Regulations) which specify that spouses, common-law or conjugal partners who are in a relationship with their sponsor for two years or less and have no children in common with their sponsor at the time of the sponsorship application are subject to a period of conditional permanent residence. The condition requires the sponsored spouse or partner to cohabit in a conjugal relationship with their sponsor for a period of two years after the day on which they became a permanent resident. The conditional measure only applies to permanent residents whose applications are received on or after the day that the amendments came into force, which was on October 25, 2012.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc...80.asp#sec02.4

So a person has just got married or qualifies for common law and they have just received their Conditional PR status and have made their landing and now living in Canada. The PR gets a job with a Canadian company. This company meets the definition of a Canadian business as per para 6.2 of ENF Manual 23
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc.../enf23-eng.pdf
The job requires the person to travel sometimes for a 2 day stint and at other times 2 to 3 weeks.
Under the current regulations he will be meeting the 730 day residency obligation as this is an exemption for the working outside Canada as per section 5 of the same manual as quoted by this
is outside Canada employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the public service of Canada or of a province;
While meeting the 730 day residency obligation are they considered to be meeting the new conditions of the Conditional PR status.
IMHO they should as they are married or deemed common law
They would normally be living together and meet the definition of habitually residing

“habitually residing”

Refers to a person’s domicile of choice, that is, the place where the person’s life is centered and where he or she intends to live indefinitely. The word "habitually" implies a more enduring and permanent connection between a person and a place than simply residing somewhere for a brief period of time.
The habitual residence of a person is typically exclusive in the sense that a person can only have one habitual residence at a time.

I don't think its CIC intentions to stop genuine marriage and common law persons with jobs employed by Canadian businesses from travelling as part of their job but as you can see from the example its not clear cut as some would hope.

derrykboyd

If this genuinely the case then it will be a big problem for me. I will have conditional PR if/when I get to decision made and my job in Edmonton requires me to travel for 2-3 weeks at a time (within Canada), 2-4 times a year. And I imagine a lot more people in this area have even more travel requirements for their jobs.

If the purpose of the conditional PR is to combat relationships of convenience then I find it hard to believe that CIC would persecute a genuine relationship because of business travel, providing they maintain residence with their spouse/partner at all other times.

It would definitely be good to have clarification, I had no reservations about my business travel based on what I read on the CIC website and the application of common sense, but maybe I am being naive.

burks

So how do I tel if I have Conditional PR or not? Will it be written on my COPR?

derrykboyd

I'm not sure as I haven't received my COPR yet. Maybe hopeintoronto or Queen_E can clarify...

SchnookoLoly

Burks - yes, COPR will say very clearly that it's Conditional PR.

Derry - if your travel is all in Canada it probably will be easier since you won't be reporting any time out of the country when the time comes to fill in your travels for PR renewal or citizenship.

You saw the link that FL posted - it sounds like you are probably fine. My suggestion would be to explain the situation to your work and see if it's possible not to travel often, or at least for very short periods of time. If it's a job that you're basically always on the road then that might be more problematic. (I'm thinking back to my first consulting job where I was living in Oakville, but was on a project in Ottawa; for 7 months I flew out Monday morning, flew back Friday night, and lived in hotels. I technically was living at home, but the people at the hotel knew me by name...)

As I said, there's no real anecdotal evidence to go on just yet as no one's completed the 2 years yet. So the only thing to do is just make your best effort with it and don't take more risks than absolutely necessary.

hopeintoronto

Hey burks - don't worry, it says quite clearly on the COPR that it is conditional as a sidenote. So if you don't have it, you definitely have the full PR!

Thanks so much everyone for the clarifications. I think we will just have to figure this out as we go along! Most of my work trips are only a couple of days and mainly within Canada, but I potentially have a much longer one (3 weeks) at Christmas to the UK & then Kenya. Eep!

SchnookoLoly

If it's one overseas trip in the course of two years I doubt that would tip the balance. I'm thinking more if it's regular trips, particularly overseas, to the point that you are only marginally "living" with your significant other (the way I was only marginally living in Oakville when I was working in Ottawa!).

burks

Weird, I thought I would have been a slam dunk conditional PR. Oh well.. That's handy then! (Unless I am completely blind and don't see it on the COPR, although I have read it a million times, and the border agent didn't mention it.. which I did think was weird!)

Thanks!

Becki567

I didn't realize they staple the COPR in your passport.

I thought I read somewhere to make sure they write your passport number on COPR and COPR number on passport otherwise you might have issues getting a SIN...

If the COPR is stapled why is this necessary? Or did I completely misread something?