TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
Jun 24th 2014, 7:59 pm
#31
Grumpy Know-it-all
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 8,928
Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
Okay so businesses in Vancouver can still use it, but they won't. I think it's basically dead. Can't see too many businesses bothering if they can only bring them in for 2 years and the likely candidates to use it would be those who already have more than 10% of the workforce as TFWs anyway.
Like I said, I think it will be more interesting to see what effect the changes on intracompany transferees will have on the outsourcing business. That is probably a bigger deal in dollar terms.
Like I said, I think it will be more interesting to see what effect the changes on intracompany transferees will have on the outsourcing business. That is probably a bigger deal in dollar terms.
Jun 24th 2014, 8:31 pm
#32
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
Is the unemployment cap based on provincial rate, or the local rate?
For instance Vancouver region is 5.4%* and Abbotsford is 7.7%* if I understand it correctly Vancouver company could still use TFW's but in Abbotsford they could not?
* Unemployment figures from May 2014 via Work BC.
For instance Vancouver region is 5.4%* and Abbotsford is 7.7%* if I understand it correctly Vancouver company could still use TFW's but in Abbotsford they could not?
* Unemployment figures from May 2014 via Work BC.
Jun 24th 2014, 9:47 pm
#33
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: Oakville, ON, CA
Posts: 8,320
Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
Is the unemployment cap based on provincial rate, or the local rate?
For instance Vancouver region is 5.4%* and Abbotsford is 7.7%* if I understand it correctly Vancouver company could still use TFW's but in Abbotsford they could not?
* Unemployment figures from May 2014 via Work BC.
For instance Vancouver region is 5.4%* and Abbotsford is 7.7%* if I understand it correctly Vancouver company could still use TFW's but in Abbotsford they could not?
* Unemployment figures from May 2014 via Work BC.
Aug 6th 2014, 3:53 pm
#34
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2013
Location: Merida Mexico and Calgary Canada
Posts: 1,050
Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
The new rules will run into problems when people wont be able to get there timmies or big mac at the drive thru this winter and will have to actually haul ass into the resturant in -40C.The reason foreign workers are in Canada is because canadians dont want to do these crappy jobs and I cant see McDonalds upping the wages, if so it means your burger is going to cost more and nobody wants that eh.A filipino friend told me Canada NEEDS these foreign workers to pay tax so the government can pay EI to canadians who dont or wont work.
Aug 6th 2014, 4:04 pm
#35
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Location: Oakville, ON, CA
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Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
The problem the government is trying to tackle is unemployment, right?
Canadians don't want to work "crap" jobs because minimum wage is too low to live, they can make just as much on employment, and some people on EI also can benefit from drug plans and such, so you end up with the mentality that it's better to be on EI and claiming benefits than it is to work.
Thus, Canadians not willing to do the job. Canadians would be more willing if the pay was better.
Employers instead hire TFWs because they can find people from other countries who ARE willing to work for the lower wages, so they do that instead. THen people whine that companies are hiring foreign workers over Canadian workers.
The root cause is basically that it "pays" too much to be on benefits, whether you frame that as benefits are too high or minimum wage is too low.
In either case, the root cause needs to be addressed - it needs to NOT be more beneficial to stay on benefits. It should pay to work.
The UK has addressed this in the past few years... I might have my numbers wrong as I'm going on memory, but they basically said a low-level job pays something like £26,000 per year... so if you are on benefits, you cannot claim more than £26,000 per year, even if you are technically eligible for more than that - you cap out at £26,000. It stops people from having more kids to get more money from the government, and other ways of playing the system. It makes it more worth it to go back to work.
Canada has to do something similar - it has to be worth it to work instead of staying on benefits. Either they have to raise minimum wage (which, as you said, has other effects like raising prices of goods) or they have to lower the amount paid on benefits so that working becomes "worth it".
Canadians don't want to work "crap" jobs because minimum wage is too low to live, they can make just as much on employment, and some people on EI also can benefit from drug plans and such, so you end up with the mentality that it's better to be on EI and claiming benefits than it is to work.
Thus, Canadians not willing to do the job. Canadians would be more willing if the pay was better.
Employers instead hire TFWs because they can find people from other countries who ARE willing to work for the lower wages, so they do that instead. THen people whine that companies are hiring foreign workers over Canadian workers.
The root cause is basically that it "pays" too much to be on benefits, whether you frame that as benefits are too high or minimum wage is too low.
In either case, the root cause needs to be addressed - it needs to NOT be more beneficial to stay on benefits. It should pay to work.
The UK has addressed this in the past few years... I might have my numbers wrong as I'm going on memory, but they basically said a low-level job pays something like £26,000 per year... so if you are on benefits, you cannot claim more than £26,000 per year, even if you are technically eligible for more than that - you cap out at £26,000. It stops people from having more kids to get more money from the government, and other ways of playing the system. It makes it more worth it to go back to work.
Canada has to do something similar - it has to be worth it to work instead of staying on benefits. Either they have to raise minimum wage (which, as you said, has other effects like raising prices of goods) or they have to lower the amount paid on benefits so that working becomes "worth it".
Aug 6th 2014, 4:24 pm
#36
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Joined: Jul 2013
Location: Merida Mexico and Calgary Canada
Posts: 1,050
Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
You are spot on.The problem is the benefits not the foreign workers.Alot of these McDonalds etc are franchises and would be loathe to raise wages .I used to deliver to McDonalds and they love to hire part-time school kids too,it keeps costs down.
Aug 6th 2014, 6:27 pm
#37
Banned
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
The problem the government is trying to tackle is unemployment, right?
Canadians don't want to work "crap" jobs because minimum wage is too low to live, they can make just as much on employment, and some people on EI also can benefit from drug plans and such, so you end up with the mentality that it's better to be on EI and claiming benefits than it is to work.
Thus, Canadians not willing to do the job. Canadians would be more willing if the pay was better.
Employers instead hire TFWs because they can find people from other countries who ARE willing to work for the lower wages, so they do that instead. THen people whine that companies are hiring foreign workers over Canadian workers.
The root cause is basically that it "pays" too much to be on benefits, whether you frame that as benefits are too high or minimum wage is too low.
In either case, the root cause needs to be addressed - it needs to NOT be more beneficial to stay on benefits. It should pay to work.
The UK has addressed this in the past few years... I might have my numbers wrong as I'm going on memory, but they basically said a low-level job pays something like £26,000 per year... so if you are on benefits, you cannot claim more than £26,000 per year, even if you are technically eligible for more than that - you cap out at £26,000. It stops people from having more kids to get more money from the government, and other ways of playing the system. It makes it more worth it to go back to work.
Canada has to do something similar - it has to be worth it to work instead of staying on benefits. Either they have to raise minimum wage (which, as you said, has other effects like raising prices of goods) or they have to lower the amount paid on benefits so that working becomes "worth it".
Canadians don't want to work "crap" jobs because minimum wage is too low to live, they can make just as much on employment, and some people on EI also can benefit from drug plans and such, so you end up with the mentality that it's better to be on EI and claiming benefits than it is to work.
Thus, Canadians not willing to do the job. Canadians would be more willing if the pay was better.
Employers instead hire TFWs because they can find people from other countries who ARE willing to work for the lower wages, so they do that instead. THen people whine that companies are hiring foreign workers over Canadian workers.
The root cause is basically that it "pays" too much to be on benefits, whether you frame that as benefits are too high or minimum wage is too low.
In either case, the root cause needs to be addressed - it needs to NOT be more beneficial to stay on benefits. It should pay to work.
The UK has addressed this in the past few years... I might have my numbers wrong as I'm going on memory, but they basically said a low-level job pays something like £26,000 per year... so if you are on benefits, you cannot claim more than £26,000 per year, even if you are technically eligible for more than that - you cap out at £26,000. It stops people from having more kids to get more money from the government, and other ways of playing the system. It makes it more worth it to go back to work.
Canada has to do something similar - it has to be worth it to work instead of staying on benefits. Either they have to raise minimum wage (which, as you said, has other effects like raising prices of goods) or they have to lower the amount paid on benefits so that working becomes "worth it".
The benefits for being unemployed in Canada can't be compared to the UK. EI only lasts a specific number of weeks which is dependent on how long you have worked and is set at a maximum of 55% of your insurable earnings; after that (unlike the UK) you have to be virtually destitute in order to claim Social Assistance, which is a pittance.
I was without work for over 2 years - not because I am lazy or didn't want to work, but because nobody (including fast food joints) were willing to employ me. I applied for literally hundreds of jobs from shelf stacking and serving coffee or burgers to office management (which is what I 'do'), I couldn't even get an interview. I was told by a government employee from employment services that I was too old, with not enough Canadian work experience and not a recent graduate from education and the fact that I am hearing impaired didn't help. She told me it was highly unlikely that I would get a job, anywhere, ever again.
I know several people who have been in similar situations (not immigrants, Canadians) - intelligent, capable people who were laid off from their jobs and were unable to get another one - a lot of the time due to employers wanting college leavers that they could 'train up' to their way of thinking or else cutting back on staff to increase profitability, so not employing new ones.
Once EI had ended they have struggled to find the money to pay their mortgage and bills, let alone feed themselves. It's not a case of being better off on unemployment benefit than working in Canada, believe me.
Unemployment is not simplistic, raising wages will not encourage people to take on new employees - in fact the result will be quite the opposite.
Last edited by Siouxie; Aug 6th 2014 at 6:30 pm.
Aug 6th 2014, 6:47 pm
#38
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: Oakville, ON, CA
Posts: 8,320
Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
The idea may be fine in theory, but it penalises people who genuinely are unable to get a job.
The benefits for being unemployed in Canada can't be compared to the UK. EI only lasts a specific number of weeks which is dependent on how long you have worked and is set at a maximum of 55% of your insurable earnings; after that (unlike the UK) you have to be virtually destitute in order to claim Social Assistance, which is a pittance.
I was without work for over 2 years - not because I am lazy or didn't want to work, but because nobody (including fast food joints) were willing to employ me. I applied for literally hundreds of jobs from shelf stacking and serving coffee or burgers to office management (which is what I 'do'), I couldn't even get an interview. I was told by a government employee from employment services that I was too old, with not enough Canadian work experience and not a recent graduate from education and the fact that I am hearing impaired didn't help. She told me it was highly unlikely that I would get a job, anywhere, ever again.
I know several people who have been in similar situations (not immigrants, Canadians) - intelligent, capable people who were laid off from their jobs and were unable to get another one - a lot of the time due to employers wanting college leavers that they could 'train up' to their way of thinking or else cutting back on staff to increase profitability, so not employing new ones.
Once EI had ended they have struggled to find the money to pay their mortgage and bills, let alone feed themselves. It's not a case of being better off on unemployment benefit than working in Canada, believe me.
Unemployment is not simplistic, raising wages will not encourage people to take on new employees - in fact the result will be quite the opposite.
The benefits for being unemployed in Canada can't be compared to the UK. EI only lasts a specific number of weeks which is dependent on how long you have worked and is set at a maximum of 55% of your insurable earnings; after that (unlike the UK) you have to be virtually destitute in order to claim Social Assistance, which is a pittance.
I was without work for over 2 years - not because I am lazy or didn't want to work, but because nobody (including fast food joints) were willing to employ me. I applied for literally hundreds of jobs from shelf stacking and serving coffee or burgers to office management (which is what I 'do'), I couldn't even get an interview. I was told by a government employee from employment services that I was too old, with not enough Canadian work experience and not a recent graduate from education and the fact that I am hearing impaired didn't help. She told me it was highly unlikely that I would get a job, anywhere, ever again.
I know several people who have been in similar situations (not immigrants, Canadians) - intelligent, capable people who were laid off from their jobs and were unable to get another one - a lot of the time due to employers wanting college leavers that they could 'train up' to their way of thinking or else cutting back on staff to increase profitability, so not employing new ones.
Once EI had ended they have struggled to find the money to pay their mortgage and bills, let alone feed themselves. It's not a case of being better off on unemployment benefit than working in Canada, believe me.
Unemployment is not simplistic, raising wages will not encourage people to take on new employees - in fact the result will be quite the opposite.
But for everyone one person who is legitimately struggling, there are 10 people who are scamming or mooching. A friend of mine is a doctor and has a patient who is in her early 20s who claims assistance and doesn't work. She won't go out and get a job because right now she qualifies for the Ontario Drug Plan - if she gets something part-time then she loses the drug plan and the PT job doesn't give her anything. So instead she's staying home collecting various bits.
I know it's not quite the same as the UK since it's time on benefits and such (again went through this with my dad) - was just presenting another side of it.
As for minimum wage... don't know about that. On the one hand, what you say does make sense that raising wages can put people off hiring more people, but on the flipside, people need to be paid enough to live. So just a question of finding the right balance... and I'm not sure where that balance is.
Aug 6th 2014, 7:42 pm
#39
Banned
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
I should have said I was massively, massively generalizing in my post - there are obviously exceptions to the rule, you being one of them, my dad being another (a few years ago he got laid off, took him about a year to find more work and not because he wasn't trying either).
But for everyone one person who is legitimately struggling, there are 10 people who are scamming or mooching. A friend of mine is a doctor and has a patient who is in her early 20s who claims assistance and doesn't work. She won't go out and get a job because right now she qualifies for the Ontario Drug Plan - if she gets something part-time then she loses the drug plan and the PT job doesn't give her anything. So instead she's staying home collecting various bits.
I know it's not quite the same as the UK since it's time on benefits and such (again went through this with my dad) - was just presenting another side of it.
As for minimum wage... don't know about that. On the one hand, what you say does make sense that raising wages can put people off hiring more people, but on the flipside, people need to be paid enough to live. So just a question of finding the right balance... and I'm not sure where that balance is.
But for everyone one person who is legitimately struggling, there are 10 people who are scamming or mooching. A friend of mine is a doctor and has a patient who is in her early 20s who claims assistance and doesn't work. She won't go out and get a job because right now she qualifies for the Ontario Drug Plan - if she gets something part-time then she loses the drug plan and the PT job doesn't give her anything. So instead she's staying home collecting various bits.
I know it's not quite the same as the UK since it's time on benefits and such (again went through this with my dad) - was just presenting another side of it.
As for minimum wage... don't know about that. On the one hand, what you say does make sense that raising wages can put people off hiring more people, but on the flipside, people need to be paid enough to live. So just a question of finding the right balance... and I'm not sure where that balance is.
The 20 something that claims assistance presumably is on some sort of disability or sickness unemployment insurance, so she would likely be far worse off if her only option was a part time job with no benefits. But - is she on that because she can't find a full time job and cannot afford to live on part time job wages when she needs medications? If that is the case then possibly it's not so much 'mooching' as being her only option, perhaps?
<devils advocate, moi?>
Aug 6th 2014, 7:49 pm
#40
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: Oakville, ON, CA
Posts: 8,320
Re: TFW Program changes includes capped numbers, increased fines, and increased fees
I honestly don't think that there are vast amounts of people being deliberately unemployed in Canada. There may be some that 'play the system' but that isn't endemic to Canada, it is FAR worse in the UK.
The 20 something that claims assistance presumably is on some sort of disability or sickness unemployment insurance, so she would likely be far worse off if her only option was a part time job with no benefits. But - is she on that because she can't find a full time job and cannot afford to live on part time job wages when she needs medications? If that is the case then possibly it's not so much 'mooching' as being her only option, perhaps?
<devils advocate, moi?>
The 20 something that claims assistance presumably is on some sort of disability or sickness unemployment insurance, so she would likely be far worse off if her only option was a part time job with no benefits. But - is she on that because she can't find a full time job and cannot afford to live on part time job wages when she needs medications? If that is the case then possibly it's not so much 'mooching' as being her only option, perhaps?
<devils advocate, moi?>
Agreed it's probably not as bad in Canada as in the UK - at least the UK is trying to cap it now. I know Canada's rules are way tighter.
