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Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

Old Dec 19th 2016, 1:37 pm
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Default Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

On 'the other forum' there was a query raised by Ottawa regarding spousal sponsorship, in particular 'proof that the sponsor intends to reside in Canada with the PA if granted approval'.


The text sent to the sponsor by Ottawa says:


Subsection 130(2) of the Regulations states that, a sponsor who is a Canadian citizen and does not reside in Canada may sponsor a foreign national who makes an application referred to in subsection (1) and is the sponsor’s spouse, common-law partner, conjugal partner or dependent child who has no dependent children, if the sponsor will reside in Canada when the foreign national becomes a permanent resident.

Your application states that your sponsor is a Canadian Citizen who is residing abroad (with you, in Scotland). You must satisfy a visa officer that your sponsor will reside in Canada at the time that you become a Permanent Resident of Canada and you must become a Permanent of Canada within the validity period of your COPR (Confirmation of Permanent Residency).


On reading this, it seems to be saying that both the Sponsor and the PA MUST reside in Canada before the expiry of the COPR??


I had understood that you could make a 'soft landing / flagpole trip' first to declare permanent residence within the COPR expiry date, then you could both return to say the UK to finalise house sales etc. and make for formal 'landing trip' at a later date (subject to meeting the '2 years in 5 years' PR provisions etc.) which may be later than the original COPR expiry date.


This is not my particular case, but I can see that we may fall in the same 'catch 22' situation.


Who has got this wrong or what nuance have I missed in the wording of the email from Ottawa?
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 1:52 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

This was originally posted by myself on the 'other forum', so I'd be curious to hear about people's experiences too

Here's the full text of the email received from CPC-Ottawa:

This refers to your application for immigration to Canada.

I have reviewed your application for a permanent resident visa as a member of the family class. I have concerns that you do not meet the requirements for immigration to Canada at this time.

Subsection 130(2) of the Regulations states that, a sponsor who is a Canadian citizen and does not reside in Canada may sponsor a foreign national who makes an application referred to in subsection (1) and is the sponsor’s spouse, common-law partner, conjugal partner or dependent child who has no dependent children, if the sponsor will reside in Canada when the foreign national becomes a permanent resident.

Your application states that your sponsor is a Canadian Citizen who is residing abroad (with you, in Scotland). You must satisfy a visa officer that your sponsor will reside in Canada at the time that you become a Permanent Resident of Canada and you must become a Permanent of Canada within the validity period of your COPR (Confirmation of Permanent Residency).

Based on the information you have submitted, I am not satisfied that it is your sponsor’s intention to return to live in Canada at the time that you become a Permanent Resident of Canada.

Your sponsor has stated that she intends to return to Canada on 01October2017. This intended date of return would be beyond the expiry date of your COPR. Your COPR is only valid until the date that will be indicated. You must arrive in Canada on or before this date. Your permanent resident visa will have been given the maximum validity (usually the expiry of the valid medical exam which expires on 11July2017). It cannot be extended for any reason.

If your sponsor intends to continue residing outside Canada at the time that you become a Permanent Resident of Canada, you may wish to withdraw your application. You may re-apply at a time when you and your sponsor intend to reside in Canada. If your sponsor intends to reside outside Canada and you do not withdraw your application within the next 30 days, processing will continue on your application and you may be refused.

Subsection 11(1) of the Act provides that a foreign national must, before entering Canada, apply to an officer for a visa or any other document required by the regulations. The visa or document shall be issued if, following an examination, the officer is satisfied that the foreign national is not inadmissible and meets the requirements of this Act.

The onus is on you to satisfy me that an immigrant visa can be issued to you. I would therefore request that you send any information or documents which you consider might respond to this concern within thirty (30) days. I must also advise you that failure to satisfy me of my concern could lead to the refusal of the application. Please quote your complete application number on your correspondence and address your correspondence to CPC-Ottawa at the address indicated below.

I hope to hear from you within thirty (30) days.
As mentioned on the other forum, we had stated October 1st 2017 as our estimated moving date on form IMM5540, as this was roughly 14 months after the application date (the average application processing time stated on the CIC website for UK applications was listed as 14 months at the time of our application - we had not come across the spreadsheet on this forum prior to submitting the application, which would've given us a more realistic timeframe). We had also submitted a long detailed letter explaining our re-settlement plans, in which amongst other things explained that my wife's current job contract in the UK finishes at the end of June 2017, and that she would be applying for various academic posts in Canada with start dates of July 1st 2017. It would appear that CIC only noted the October 2017 date on the IMM5540 form, rather than the actual plan that we'd outlined.

We've now responded to the initial query with further evidence of job searching in Canada, and have reiterated that my wife plans to return by the end of June 2017.
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 1:56 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

Sorry Kanukki - I didn't realise you were on here too.


As you can see though, I am now asking for myself just in case as we may well be in the same position (1 year from medical takes us to early June 2017 - not much time to sell up everything when we may not get COPR until February / March via London)!!
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 2:10 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

Originally Posted by Hurlabrick
As you can see though, I am now asking for myself just in case as we may well be in the same position (1 year from medical takes us to early June 2017 - not much time to sell up everything when we may not get COPR until February / March via London)!!
Absolutely, that's not a problem at all for you to post it here too. I was just posting the full email to hopefully give others some more context. Hopefully someone will be able to provide us both some concrete information.
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 3:54 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

Hmm okay, you can sort of ignore my post in the Timeline thread, though it still stands.

Honestly, it sounds like the person who sent you the letter has their wires crossed somewhere, which I know is difficult to accept, but let me break it down here.


Subsection 130(2) of the Regulations states that, a sponsor who is a Canadian citizen and does not reside in Canada may sponsor a foreign national who makes an application referred to in subsection (1) and is the sponsor’s spouse, common-law partner, conjugal partner or dependent child who has no dependent children, if the sponsor will reside in Canada when the foreign national becomes a permanent resident.

Your application states that your sponsor is a Canadian Citizen who is residing abroad (with you, in Scotland). You must satisfy a visa officer that your sponsor will reside in Canada at the time that you become a Permanent Resident of Canada and you must become a Permanent of Canada within the validity period of your COPR (Confirmation of Permanent Residency).
Okay, this is fine, all in line with the 'official' line and whatnot.

Based on the information you have submitted, I am not satisfied that it is your sponsor’s intention to return to live in Canada at the time that you become a Permanent Resident of Canada.

Your sponsor has stated that she intends to return to Canada on 01October2017. This intended date of return would be beyond the expiry date of your COPR. Your COPR is only valid until the date that will be indicated. You must arrive in Canada on or before this date. Your permanent resident visa will have been given the maximum validity (usually the expiry of the valid medical exam which expires on 11July2017). It cannot be extended for any reason.
Something here doesn't make sense. It's all fine up until the bold part... and that is just incorrect. You aren't given a PR *visa*, you're given your official PR *status*. Those aren't the same thing. In addition, your PR status doesn't exactly have an expiry date. Yes you have to maintain your 2-in-5 requirement, but that 5 years is from the date you land and has nothing at all to do with the date of your medical.

Your COPR specifically has an expiry date, which is the date that's in line with your medicals. The medicals date has absolutely zip to do with your PR validity.

If your sponsor intends to continue residing outside Canada at the time that you become a Permanent Resident of Canada, you may wish to withdraw your application. You may re-apply at a time when you and your sponsor intend to reside in Canada. If your sponsor intends to reside outside Canada and you do not withdraw your application within the next 30 days, processing will continue on your application and you may be refused.

Subsection 11(1) of the Act provides that a foreign national must, before entering Canada, apply to an officer for a visa or any other document required by the regulations. The visa or document shall be issued if, following an examination, the officer is satisfied that the foreign national is not inadmissible and meets the requirements of this Act.

The onus is on you to satisfy me that an immigrant visa can be issued to you. I would therefore request that you send any information or documents which you consider might respond to this concern within thirty (30) days. I must also advise you that failure to satisfy me of my concern could lead to the refusal of the application. Please quote your complete application number on your correspondence and address your correspondence to CPC-Ottawa at the address indicated below.

I hope to hear from you within thirty (30) days.
And this is just someone with a stick up their backside.

It almost sounds like the person who wrote this thinks you aren't coming AT ALL until October 2017, which is obviously not your plan. And if that were the case, then yes, you wouldn't get your PR because your COPR wouldn't be valid.

But that's not your plan.

So the question now is what to do. ANd I'm totally conflicted about what to say. So I am just going to write out my various thoughts, and I would love for others to contribute (Oompa, Snowy, Siouxie, FL, etc, I'm looking at you!!!).

Honestly, my thought is that the person who wrote this is almost confused about the whole landing process. Which is ridiculous. SOOOO many people have landed, gone back to the UK, then come back permanently once everything is finalized. This is SO normal. So I would be so tempted to just write out a game plan that fits with what she clearly wants you to say, which is to move before July 2017. In all honesty, it is NOT a problem to land, go back, and do the permanent move later. Your sponsor doesn't even need ot be with you when you land! My husband and I lived separately for 3 months, he (the Brit) moved to Canada in Sept 2013, I (the Canadian sponsor) stayed back in the UK to tie up loose ends etc and moved in Dec 2013.

I worry that if you say your actual plan, even though it SHOULD BE FINE, this dipshit is going to have a stick up their backside and will reject you for something completely stupid. It would probably pass on appeal, but the appeals process takes AGES.

So I don't know. Obviously no one ever says to lie, but it's another thing when the person reviewing the file is being a wang. And at least in this case, your game plan can change...

What do other people think???
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 5:02 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

Originally Posted by SchnookoLoly
..... when the person reviewing the file is being a wang
That would make them a 'wanger' then
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 5:35 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

In my opinion, I think two things are being confused here.

Yes it is true that a FN can be issued with a PRV, land and go back to their home country shortly thereafter. This happens frequently.
It is also true that a PR living with their Canadian Citizen spouse outside of Canada continues to meet the RO.

BUT: when the Canadian Citizen is living outside of Canada and makes an application to sponsor, on IMM1344, they make a Sponsor Residency Declaration that immediately their spouse/CLP/Dep Children become PRs they intend to live in (province they intend to live in). They sign the form so they sign that declaration.

Therefore, if the sponsor signs the declaration but doesn't intend to do that, this could be construed as misrepresentation. That's my opinion anyway.

To give another example where the above would not apply (and this is a real life example). PR husband living in Canada sponsors wife and kids; they get COPR; they come and land. Two weeks later, wife/kids go back for a few months to finish job, kids' school year etc. But the PR sponsor never signed that declaration as it is not possible for a PR living outside of Canada to sponsor. So the PR remained in Canada (for the most part except for a few weeks) till the wife/kids had finished up and came "for good".

S
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 6:11 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

In honesty, I think the error you made was in giving a specific date, rather than some general details showing job hunts / arrangements for accommodation etc. Most people say that once PR is granted it is their intention to return and have arranged to stay with xyz temporarily and are exploring employment options (with evidence).

I think you may have got a 'jobsworth' as a processing officer, unfortunately. I think also, that there is confusion is between 'Permanant Resident Visa' and COPR - which is what I believe they meant.

"Subsection 11(1) of the Act provides that a foreign national must, before entering Canada, apply to an officer for a visa or any other document required by the regulations. The visa or document shall be issued if, following an examination, the officer is satisfied that the foreign national is not inadmissible and meets the requirements of this Act.

I would be tempted to respond with something along the lines of "when we initially applied we presumed that processing would take approximately 17 months and filled the forms out with an expected relocation date to Canada to reflect this. On realisation that processing would be much quicker, we have made arrangements to relocate to Canada by July 2017. Please see job offer letter; confirmation from family stating they are expecting us to temporarily live with them/email from realtor stating that they are actively seeking a rental on our behalf; confirmation from xyz school board that we have requested admission for our daughter" - you get the gist.

*Edited to add, sorry - I see you have already done so

Schnookololy has an excellent example in the Wiki FAQ's

Proof of intent to return Spousal Sponsorship-Canada/FAQ : British Expat Wiki and in this post http://britishexpats.com/forum/immig.../#post11520935

Last edited by Siouxie; Dec 19th 2016 at 6:17 pm.
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 7:08 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

Phew!

Checking my IMM5540, in the date box in question I estimated as 'Summer 2017' and in the appendix I provided I stated anytime between Spring and Autumn 2017 depending on a number of factors, including the date on the COPR.

Hoping I don't now hit the same issue!!!
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 9:39 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

For anyone reading this you have to read the wording in the regulation and this is the most important wording of the regulation 130(2)
if the sponsor will reside in Canada when the foreign national becomes a permanent resident.

So IRCC are looking at it as follows
Is the sponsor actually living/residing in Canada when their spouse is landing?
If the answer is No then the application is rejected or no Immigrant Visa is issued or COPR forms issued.

Its how the visa officer interprets the wording. Will reside to most would be residing in Canada at the time the spouse lands and not at a future date after the spouse lands. In other words not just doing a landing then returning to the country the Canadian sponsor and spouse were living in to finish up work contracts and selling of house etc.
This way the spouse does not benefit from the time spent accompanying a Canadian citizen outside of Canada and any potential abuse of health coverage.

What others don't appreciate also are Canadian citizens abroad working in one country and their spouse is in another country. Far easier to get a visa in certain circumstances to accompany their Canadian spouse in the country where they are currently living.

Its all down to timing and the decision of the visa officer.
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Old Dec 19th 2016, 9:55 pm
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Default Re: Sponsor must move to Canada with PA within COPR?

Yes. Absolutely.

And there are 2 separate things going on in this thread.

1.A person becomes a PR and then has to fulfil their obligations as a PR including the residency obligation. However, being a PR isn't a prison sentence: the PR can leave at any time.

2. The second is that in order to be approved as a sponsor, a Canadian living outside of Canada has to declare they will move back immediately the sponsored person becomes a PR.

These are 2 separate issues that can be linked but may not be.
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