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Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Old Jun 9th 2005, 9:02 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Hello Andrew,
I am afraid you are terribly misinformed and seem highly annoyed that someone has taken on a different view to your own. I am disappointed with you because some of what you have said in the past has been highly informative but on this occasion I felt that you over stepped the boundaries of acceptable behavior and good taste. This poor person asked a perfectly reasonable question to which you clearly made a derogatory remark without knowing anything about him or others in a similar situation. You have done this many times before. I am having difficulty deciding if your remarks are situational or dispositional. I felt on this occasion that you may have phrased your reply considerably better. You keep saying that your trademark is to speak the truth and sometimes the harsh realities are not pleasant and this is correct. However Jim Humphries manages to show considerably more compassion in his replies which indicates that he is a true diplomat whilst also informing people about the harsh realities without the need for insults. Please Andrew,there are ways to speak to people and ways not to. Your insinuations regarding Tangrams questions were totally out of order. We all have bad days and sometimes put our foot in it, but it's knowing when we have done this and being big enough to admit to it and to offer an apology when one is called for.

Now to my next point. A person could have in theory in the UK done their A levels then go to university for 2 and a half years then drop out because of family or financial problems. That person could have then got a job as a bricklayer, plasterer, tiler, painter and decorator, industrial paintsprayer,glazier,coach builder, concreter,carpet fitter, sales person then sales manager, etc.etc.etc and become a highly skilled tradesman without ever having even seen the inside of a college training institution. That person could then be and was recognized as such by many construction industries. Many people on this forum will verify this and I am extremely surprised that you are not aware of this given your profession. However because they were part of a system that allowed this I am speaking about UK, does it make them uneducated?

Australia for one, will consider immigration applications from those who are not holders of formal credentials but can display a verifiable work history in that profession. Many not all jobs 30 odd years ago trained people with an on the job approach and many of those trained in this way never actually got around to gaining formal recognition by way of a certificate because they figured they did not need a piece of paper to prove they could do the job. It is clear that you are not aware of this but like it or not, thats the way it was. I am not aware of what professional qualifications you hold nor am I making any assumptions but it is my belief that one does not necessarily need to be a holder of a law degree in order to be a good highly regarded immigration consultant who in effect deals with immigration law everyday and in many cases quite efficiently as you have shown on many occasions (you're welcome). I have however witnessed lawyers in the past making derogatory remarks regarding immigration consultants not having law degrees and therefore not being able to offer a client the same level of service as a trained lawyer who went to uni. This view is rubbish in my opinion but it is a similar view that you appear to adopt whereby because a person has no bits of paper or not many they are uneducated and can't do the job therefore Canada does not need those sorts of uneducated people because it already has enough. Think about it

J

Last edited by jjanj; Jun 9th 2005 at 9:13 pm.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 9:18 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

One thing that I have become aware of is how much Canada likes certificates! you need one to prove you can walk unaided practically. I am not uneducated, studied at college and have years of experience. I have never been asked to show or prove I went to school let alone college. A very basic CV and an interview have got me my past jobs. If I had not been up to the job a) I would not have wasted my time applying b) they would have sussed me out within days.

I agree with all that has been said in previous posts. However not with Mr Millers attitude towards people or their questions. I have read many posts over the past year, and must admit am quite taken a back by how rude and abrupt he can be.
Many times I would like to have said something, but have not. However i feel that for many applying who have no knowledge of Canada, immigration or job prospects there etc, some of the answers are incredibly rude to say the least.
Maybe people on here do repeat questions already asked, so what? Why tell them to search previous posts before asking? The search facility is not that easy to find the answers always. Why be rude to people and say they are uneducated if they do not get 67 points? rubbish!
Not everybody is priviledged to have a university education, in Uk we can go to college at 16 not 18 like Canada. Many who go into a family business do not need certificates to prove their apprenticeship. Not everybody ( in England) has the need or desire to collect A4 pieces of paper to hang on the wall ( certificates) to prove anything. I can print as many as I want of the computer hang them on the wall of any office and say I am "whatever" does any one actually ask the person or check up on whether these certificates are genuine. When you call a tradesperson in to do a job, builder, carpenter electrician etc, do you ask for his certificates to prove he has trained somewhere? No, he usually comes via the yellow pages or by recommendation. These people are all hard working and the backbone of our country.
I have had to call a plumber electrician and landscaper in in the last couple of weeks. All I wanted was a price, and how soon can they do the jobs!
All are like gold dust here and in Canada. I dont need to see their certificates.
If the job is done crap I wont pay them simple as that.

Unfortunately immigration cannot tell id someone is good at their job or not, so some sort of qualification on paper is all they can assess by.

I do agree that Canada is right to make the process as long as it is, it gives you time to make sure you are making the right move. I also agree they have to set limits with points. What these are is a difficult one to decided. It does not matter if points are 67 or 75 people will alway complain.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 9:19 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Bleech.

I am also the same I have a degree in media tec which includes advanced electronics and city & Guilds in electronics which gives me a electronics sevice tec.My degree is BSc with honers and I still only get 67 points. I was told that I could only get points for one or the other makes you sick after all the years of study. so I only get the 67 points yet I have been told by companys in Canada that they would give me work but dont have time to go through the HRDC.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 9:28 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Tangram
Proo, agreed but also please see my comments above - it seems our posts crossed whilst being submitted. I certainly wasn't debating what the score level should be, despite the insulting rhetoric from Andrew, I was merely interested if all the applicants were degree holders thereby getting that valuable extra 7 points. It would appear that AM has opened old wounds and certainly a can of worms with his post but that was not my intent. It certainly annoyed my wife when she read it, enough in fact that she phoned me at work to vent.

Anyway, keep posting.
I'm lucky to have degree and profession in a NOC list job and also speak French. Even then I was scraping the barrel as I didn't have enough experience. However my partner is highly educated and experienced so without him I was unlikely to have gotten through without having to delay the process. So not all people with degrees have it easy - indeed there seem to be quite a few posts from degreed people who are finding it difficult over there.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 9:46 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Just to note for everyone's information : in not one of my posts have I complained about the points level at either 67 or the previous higher level. Not once !

All I asked ( see the original post ) was to get feedback on how people achieved that level and invited posts to that effect. What I didn't desire / ask for was a lecture on how I or my wife ( we shall now call ourselves Cletus and Brandine and live in the backwoods ) are too uneducated to offer Canada any benefit from living and contributing to the country.

I believe we can but if we don't get the points, fair enough, we won't have the oportunity to prove that we can integrate and contribute / benefit in Canada.

Please keep your posts coming and have a great day wherever you are - apart from Mr M in Vancouver... only kidding
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 9:53 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by gooding
One thing that I have become aware of is how much Canada likes certificates!
Even that is not enough to land you a job. You still need "Canadian Experience" . So even if you can prove how "educated" you are and how much experience you got, you will probably end up flipping burger in Canada.
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Old Jun 10th 2005, 12:36 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by firefox
I have been told by companys in Canada that they would give me work but dont have time to go through the HRDC.
Sadly, this is probably just a polite brush off. To get HRSDC approval they first have to try and fill the post with a Canadian resident. If your skills are unique and they need the position filled then they have no option but to go through HRSDC if they can't get a local to employ.

Also perhap the rather synical view is that an HRSDC approved job must be at a salary level comparable to what Canadians are being paid. If you arrive as a new PR, desparate for a job, they would probably offer you less.
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Old Jun 10th 2005, 12:45 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Tangram
Just to note for everyone's information : in not one of my posts have I complained about the points level at either 67 or the previous higher level. Not once !

All I asked ( see the original post ) was to get feedback on how people achieved that level and invited posts to that effect. What I didn't desire / ask for was a lecture on how I or my wife ( we shall now call ourselves Cletus and Brandine and live in the backwoods ) are too uneducated to offer Canada any benefit from living and contributing to the country.

I believe we can but if we don't get the points, fair enough, we won't have the oportunity to prove that we can integrate and contribute / benefit in Canada.

Please keep your posts coming and have a great day wherever you are - apart from Mr M in Vancouver... only kidding
B.Eng holder. One year work experience in Canada. Age between 24-49. Single. No job offered no relatives, and family in Canada. IELTS score gave me 12 points in English, zero for French.
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Old Jun 10th 2005, 1:50 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Bleech
Hi Tangram,
I'm also an uneducated bufoon and just scrape through with 67 points, join the club! We're the monkeys sat in the corner trying to sit on our elbows
Uneducated.....but genius ! I'll join your club
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Old Jun 10th 2005, 3:18 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Can't you read? I clearly wrote that people in circumstances you just indicated, who learned trade on the job will get their points (and often more than those with Bachelor degree) if they can prove their qualifications by obtaining proper diploma, trade certificate or apprenticeship. Most will get such without attending any school if their well documented experience is recognized and accepted **in their country** by the institution authorized to issue trade certificates or diplomas/certificates attesting to the fact that they completed required training or apprenticeship in their profession. This is all you need.

I'm not "misinformed" - I'm well informed and experienced in what I do and am not annoyed by different point of view. "Different points of view" is irrelevant here - we are not in the discussion forum where you discuss your "points of view". It is forum focusing on rules, procedures and experience with immigration to Canada process, not on points of view.

You may not like what I say and how I say it, it is your right. But I will not sugarcoat anything what I say just to be liked by few who are looking here for moral support instead of seeking real, detailed answers to specific questions related to immigration process.

Just read other posts and tell me why those who spent their time (often getting deep into the debt of student loans) to gain university education or those without uni education who made that extra effort to get their hands on training recognized and attested to by trade certificates or diplomas should should have the same chances as those who decided not to get any certificate, regardless the fact that they have the opportunity to get one?

We are not talking here about Australia, we are dealing with Canadian rules. If you don't like Canadian rules then sorry, it is your choice. Our rules require certain degree, diploma, trade certificate or apprenticeship to get certain number of points in education factor, period. You don't have it, you won't get the points, simple. You want it badly then get your points by getting first what is required. Or try Australia.



Originally Posted by jjanj
Hello Andrew,
I am afraid you are terribly misinformed and seem highly annoyed that someone has taken on a different view to your own. I am disappointed with you because some of what you have said in the past has been highly informative but on this occasion I felt that you over stepped the boundaries of acceptable behavior and good taste. This poor person asked a perfectly reasonable question to which you clearly made a derogatory remark without knowing anything about him or others in a similar situation. You have done this many times before. I am having difficulty deciding if your remarks are situational or dispositional. I felt on this occasion that you may have phrased your reply considerably better. You keep saying that your trademark is to speak the truth and sometimes the harsh realities are not pleasant and this is correct. However Jim Humphries manages to show considerably more compassion in his replies which indicates that he is a true diplomat whilst also informing people about the harsh realities without the need for insults. Please Andrew,there are ways to speak to people and ways not to. Your insinuations regarding Tangrams questions were totally out of order. We all have bad days and sometimes put our foot in it, but it's knowing when we have done this and being big enough to admit to it and to offer an apology when one is called for.

Now to my next point. A person could have in theory in the UK done their A levels then go to university for 2 and a half years then drop out because of family or financial problems. That person could have then got a job as a bricklayer, plasterer, tiler, painter and decorator, industrial paintsprayer,glazier,coach builder, concreter,carpet fitter, sales person then sales manager, etc.etc.etc and become a highly skilled tradesman without ever having even seen the inside of a college training institution. That person could then be and was recognized as such by many construction industries. Many people on this forum will verify this and I am extremely surprised that you are not aware of this given your profession. However because they were part of a system that allowed this I am speaking about UK, does it make them uneducated?

Australia for one, will consider immigration applications from those who are not holders of formal credentials but can display a verifiable work history in that profession. Many not all jobs 30 odd years ago trained people with an on the job approach and many of those trained in this way never actually got around to gaining formal recognition by way of a certificate because they figured they did not need a piece of paper to prove they could do the job. It is clear that you are not aware of this but like it or not, thats the way it was. I am not aware of what professional qualifications you hold nor am I making any assumptions but it is my belief that one does not necessarily need to be a holder of a law degree in order to be a good highly regarded immigration consultant who in effect deals with immigration law everyday and in many cases quite efficiently as you have shown on many occasions (you're welcome). I have however witnessed lawyers in the past making derogatory remarks regarding immigration consultants not having law degrees and therefore not being able to offer a client the same level of service as a trained lawyer who went to uni. This view is rubbish in my opinion but it is a similar view that you appear to adopt whereby because a person has no bits of paper or not many they are uneducated and can't do the job therefore Canada does not need those sorts of uneducated people because it already has enough. Think about it

J
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Old Jun 10th 2005, 3:24 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
Can't you read? I clearly wrote that people in circumstances you just indicated, who learned trade on the job will get their points (and often more than those with Bachelor degree) if they can prove their qualifications by obtaining proper diploma, trade certificate or apprenticeship. Most will get such without attending any school if their well documented experience is recognized and accepted **in their country** by the institution authorized to issue trade certificates or diplomas/certificates attesting to the fact that they completed required training or apprenticeship in their profession. This is all you need.

I'm not "misinformed" - I'm well informed and experienced in what I do and am not annoyed by different point of view. "Different points of view" is irrelevant here - we are not in the discussion forum where you discuss your "points of view". It is forum focusing on rules, procedures and experience with immigration to Canada process, not on points of view.

You may not like what I say and how I say it, it is your right. But I will not sugarcoat anything what I say just to be liked by few who are looking here for moral support instead of seeking real, detailed answers to specific questions related to immigration process.

Just read other posts and tell me why those who spent their time (often getting deep into the debt of student loans) to gain university education or those without uni education who made that extra effort to get their hands on training recognized and attested to by trade certificates or diplomas should should have the same chances as those who decided not to get any certificate, regardless the fact that they have the opportunity to get one?

We are not talking here about Australia, we are dealing with Canadian rules. If you don't like Canadian rules then sorry, it is your choice. Our rules require certain degree, diploma, trade certificate or apprenticeship to get certain number of points in education factor, period. You don't have it, you won't get the points, simple. You want it badly then get your points by getting first what is required. Or try Australia.
Andrew- please focus on what the thread was started for and not discussions / client trawling or any other purpose. Please refer yourself to the original post and keep on the topic. If you wish to discuss anything off topic, please use the personal message service or email the particular person concerned.

Many thanks.
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Old Jun 10th 2005, 3:42 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

our position is that we dont make the 67 points required.
husband is a skilled tradesman , doing industrial flooring job for 18 years for the same firm. he left school did a few jobs, was on the dole for a time then landed this job. he didnt go to uni or get an apprenticeship. he has now got a card from the construction and industry training board (CITB) this card is an accreditation. he had to take an exam to prove he knows his stuff. he is now doing the managers exam in July.
so as far as i can see he wont get any points for all of that, only the basic 5 points for completing high school.
Jeanette
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Old Jun 10th 2005, 3:47 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Jeanetteuk1
our position is that we dont make the 67 points required.
husband is a skilled tradesman , doing industrial flooring job for 18 years for the same firm. he left school did a few jobs, was on the dole for a time then landed this job. he didnt go to uni or get an apprenticeship. he has now got a card from the construction and industry training board (CITB) this card is an accreditation. he had to take an exam to prove he knows his stuff. he is now doing the managers exam in July.
so as far as i can see he wont get any points for all of that, only the basic 5 points for completing high school.
Jeanette
I take it Jeanette that you are not applying ?
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Old Jun 10th 2005, 3:48 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

This is exactly what I've done - telling you how to get the points you need.

Unfortunately it is you and other participants who don't like harsh reality and who tried to turn it into the discussion about "points of view", not me.

And I am the one who already stated thet it is not the discussion forum for different "points of view".

If you don't see it then it is your problem, not mine and for sure not the "damn CIC's" problem.

Originally Posted by Tangram
Andrew- please focus on what the thread was started for and not discussions / client trawling or any other purpose. Please refer yourself to the original post and keep on the topic. If you wish to discuss anything off topic, please use the personal message service or email the particular person concerned.

Many thanks.
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Old Jun 10th 2005, 3:49 am
  #30  
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
This is exactly what I've done - telling you how to get the points you need.

Unfortunately it is you and other participants who don't like harsh reality and who tried to turn it into the discussion about "points of view", not me.

And I am the one who already stated thet it is not the discussion forum for different "points of view".

If you don't see it then it is your problem, not mine and for sure not the "damn CIC's" problem.
Please read the original post again Andrew. I asked how 'others' obtained their points, not how can I obtain my points. And I have never asked for discussion, just facts on how people obtained the points and also never complained as stated previously about various qualifying levels.

My other posts remain apposite.

Last edited by Tangram; Jun 10th 2005 at 3:52 am.
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