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Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Old Jun 9th 2005, 10:03 am
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Default Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Seems an obvious question. What I didnt want to do was to get too personal, but various conversations have gotten me wondering.

I can't believe that every single group of people have both partners who have masters degrees, are at the right age, have immediate family over in Canada and talk French etc etc.

Neither of us have degrees and just about scrape the points ( although its looking unlikely on the family front but we have given it a shot... hey its only a £500 gamble ).

But I am interested, even with the points lowered to 67, how people accumulated the necessary points assuming that necessary funds are held, you have a NOC list job, how individuals broke the barrier in a variety of ways for the skilled worker application process.

Have a great day.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 10:20 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Tangram
Seems an obvious question. What I didnt want to do was to get too personal, but various conversations have gotten me wondering.

I can't believe that every single group of people have both partners who have masters degrees, are at the right age, have immediate family over in Canada and talk French etc etc.

Neither of us have degrees and just about scrape the points ( although its looking unlikely on the family front but we have given it a shot... hey its only a £500 gamble ).

But I am interested, even with the points lowered to 67, how people accumulated the necessary points assuming that necessary funds are held, you have a NOC list job, how individuals broke the barrier in a variety of ways for the skilled worker application process.

Have a great day.
I accumulated 80/100 and i do not have family in canada (factor 6) nor do i have an arranged job over there (factor 5). This means i have full scores on all the first factors. No surprise here as i have the highest degree, i speak both languages with high proficiency, i have more than 4 of experience and i am in the age group 21-49.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 10:21 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Hi

Originally Posted by Tangram
Seems an obvious question. What I didnt want to do was to get too personal, but various conversations have gotten me wondering.

I can't believe that every single group of people have both partners who have masters degrees, are at the right age, have immediate family over in Canada and talk French etc etc.

Neither of us have degrees and just about scrape the points ( although its looking unlikely on the family front but we have given it a shot... hey its only a £500 gamble ).

But I am interested, even with the points lowered to 67, how people accumulated the necessary points assuming that necessary funds are held, you have a NOC list job, how individuals broke the barrier in a variety of ways for the skilled worker application process.

Have a great day.
Skilled tradesman with 3 year apprenticeship gets 22 points which is equivalent to 2 batchelor degrees. Speaks English fluently, 16 points, 4 years work experience 21, Age 10, = 69 points thats without a job offer, relatives in Canada or spouses education.

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Old Jun 9th 2005, 10:49 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Single Bachelor's degree holder or tradesperson with just 2 years diploma, certificate or apprenticeship and 14 years of education, fluent in just one of 2 official languages in Canada, aged 21-49 and with 4 years of work experience reaches exactly the current pass mark of 67 points, without any need for relatives in Canada, job offer, educated spouse or second language.

If you can't reach such low pass mark without points for relative in Canada, arranged employment, spouse's education or second language then it is quite obvious that you must either get back to school or gain more experience or both as Canada has enough uneducated and inexperienced people without need for more... No offence intended, just stating the obvious...
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 11:40 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Just an FYI: having a spouse or common-law partner with a master's degree doesn't count for extra points; points are only awarded for dependents w/ a BA (and I think it only counts as 2 points). My common-law partner's BA gave us 2 extra points.

Also, we are not fluent in French (but are native English speakers), have no job offer, have no Canadian relatives, and no degrees from Canadian universities, but we still were able to accumulate 76 points (I think that the biggest thing that helped was my graduate degree & work experience). I don't think that the points system is too strict at all; as our case points out, it is possible to exceed the pass mark without many of the criteria you alluded to. Now we're just waiting for our passport request from the Buffalo consulate.

Good luck with your application!

Originally Posted by Tangram
Seems an obvious question. What I didnt want to do was to get too personal, but various conversations have gotten me wondering.

I can't believe that every single group of people have both partners who have masters degrees, are at the right age, have immediate family over in Canada and talk French etc etc.

Neither of us have degrees and just about scrape the points ( although its looking unlikely on the family front but we have given it a shot... hey its only a £500 gamble ).

But I am interested, even with the points lowered to 67, how people accumulated the necessary points assuming that necessary funds are held, you have a NOC list job, how individuals broke the barrier in a variety of ways for the skilled worker application process.

Have a great day.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 5:40 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Hello Tangram
First of all I do actually see your point and totally agree with what you are saying. You will unfortunately find quite a lot of people on this forum (Myself definitely NOT included) hold the view that unless you can get over 75 points you are not worthy of entry into Canada and that such a person has nothing to offer the country. Andrew has also quiet eloquently inferred that if you can't reach the low score of 67 you should go back to school because Canada has enough "UNEDUCATED" people without letting anymore in. I for one am quite saddened by these remarks and have made this point before. There are many highly skilled trades people who are struggling to get 67 points and who did not go to college because their job is hands on. They don't speak 2 languages or have any family in Canada. There partners maybe at home bringing up kids and therefore have no formal educational credentials but this does not make them stupid or uneducated. This also does not alter the fact that the main applicant is a highly skilled trades person who can do the job that he or she has been trained to do. Under these circumstances Tangram you are perfectly correct in your observations. I personally think Andrew was way out of line for these comments and owes you an apology. It also clear from reading past posts from Andrew that he is not in favour of the 67 points pass mark as he thinks it is set too low. He has made this clear on many occasions however I would be interested in knowing how much of his business comes from those who are around that points range and wheather he refuses to represent such people out of principle because he disagrees with such a low pass mark. I am sorry Andrew but this time I feel that you have overstepped the mark and were insulting to Tangram and many people in the same situation. As I have said on previous posts, the potential points total is 100 so how many of those 67 points critics who are in the 75/80 points range would complain if CIC set the minimum points level at 90, would they then accept the allegation that they must therefore be UNEDUCATED because they only have 75/80 points? There are many different forms of intelligence and chrystalized intelligence is only one. Just my opinion. You go for it Tangram and the very best of luck to you, I for one know exactly where you are coming from and it would appear that so does CIC otherwise they would not have lowered the pass mark and permitted substitute assessment. This works both ways because you can look good on paper but still be refused even with 80 points. On the other hand you may not get the points but still get in to canada. Could Andrew please explain. the reasoning behind substitute assessment saying that he is such a such a supporter of the higher pass mark as being a fool proof indication as to whether a person should be allowed into Canada.Does he think points is be the perfect indicator? What substitute assessment is saying is that CIC holds the intelligent view that each case is different and the points system is not always the best indicator Thank God for discretion. Please please all you critics of the current 67 point pass mark, do you realize how pompous it sounds when you whine about the pass mark being too. low, you are also insulting many thousands of decent skilled people who like everyone else is just after a good life and who are no less entitled to it just because they have less points than yourselves. How about a bit of tollerance and support for everyone.
J

Last edited by jjanj; Jun 9th 2005 at 6:26 pm.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 5:51 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by jjanj
Hello Tangram
First of all I do actually see your point and totally agree with what you are saying. You will unfortunately find quite a lot of people on this forum (Myself definitely NOT included) hold the view that unless you can get over 75 points you are as Andrew has quiet eloquently inferred that if you can't reach the low score of 67 you should go back to school because Canada has enough UNEDUCATED people without letting anymore in. I for one am quite saddened by these remarks and have made this point before. There are many highly skilled trades people who are struggling to get 67 points and who did not go to college because there job is hands on. They don't speak 2 languages or have any family in Canada. There partners maybe at home bringing up kids and therefore have no formal educational credentials but this does not make them stupid or uneducated. This also does not alter the fact that the main applicant is a highly skilled trades person who can do the job that he or she has been trained to do. Under these circumstances Tangram you are perfectly correct in your observations. I personally think Andrew was way out of line for these comments and owes you an apology. It also clear from reading past posts from Andrew that he is not in favour of the 67 points pass mark which he has made clear on many occasions however I would be interested in knowing how much of his business comes from those who are around that points range and wheather he refuses to represent such people out of principle because he disagrees with such a low pass mark. I am sorry Andrew but this time I feel that you have overstepped the mark and were insulting to Tangram and many people in the same situation. There are many different forms of intelligence and chrystalized intelligence is only one. Just my opinion. You go for it Tangram and the very best of luck to you I for one know exactly where you are coming from.
J
Many thanks for your comments J ( and everyone else's comments... ) please keep them coming as this is excatly the sort of feedback - bar a few exceptions - which I am looking for.Whilst I wouldn't class myself as 'uneducated' as intimated by some elitist comments, it is true I do not hold a degree, merely a dilpoma and 20 years experience in finance, insurance, and software development. We can but try and wait and see what happens over the coming years. We have had much positive fedback from my recruiters in Canada that, whilst I would need to take a step backwards from my I.T. Manager role, I should be able to restart my career within the short term.

Again, have a great day and keep the feedback coming.

Last edited by Tangram; Jun 9th 2005 at 7:07 pm.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 7:08 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Tangram
Seems an obvious question. What I didnt want to do was to get too personal, but various conversations have gotten me wondering.

I can't believe that every single group of people have both partners who have masters degrees, are at the right age, have immediate family over in Canada and talk French etc etc.

Neither of us have degrees and just about scrape the points ( although its looking unlikely on the family front but we have given it a shot... hey its only a £500 gamble ).

But I am interested, even with the points lowered to 67, how people accumulated the necessary points assuming that necessary funds are held, you have a NOC list job, how individuals broke the barrier in a variety of ways for the skilled worker application process.

Have a great day.
Maybe the point is that they don't want people coming over who will just end up working in McDs or something (no offence to McD employees). At least with degrees or transferable trade certificates you would be more likley to find some decent work. It would suck going through the whole process to find out you couldn't work in your field because you're not qualified.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 7:13 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

What "tollerance" are you talking about???

Canada needs skilled people, period. Tradesperson doesn't need to go to any college - all what is needed is a trade certificate obtained either after 2 years of trade school or training or apprenticeship. It will exactly bring same 20 points as Bachelor's degree from university.

More - a 3-years apprenticeship trade certificate earns 22 points for education, more than a university degree on Bachelor's level.

Why those "highly skilled trades people" who learned on the job don't get proper certificates proving their skills??? It is exactly what is needed - a 2-years apprenticeship or hands-on training resulting in trade certificate after 12 years of elementary and secondary school. Should CIC just take someone's claim at face value? Someone may have 20+ years of experience and still not have qualifications to get any certificate. How CIC will determine that they are "highly skilled" if they don't have evidence to prove it???? Get real.

But if someone is "highly skilled" with years of documented hands on experience as you stated then he or she shouldn't have any problems getting proper trade certificate before applying for immigration to Canada.

I'm sorry, but if such "highly skilled tradesperson with years of hands on experience" cannot get certificate then it indicates one (or both) of the following - (1) person doesn't have qualifications or (2) person doesn't have any useful level of resourcefullnes, thus such person's chance to succeed in Canada will be next to none, just as statistics prove.

Discretionary approval? Unless you are Bill Gates or some kind of genius without education but with other rather serious factors in your favour then your chances for discretionary approval are next to none.

I have no intention to offend or insult anyone here. I'm just telling you what to do, I'm giving you valuable advice - get the certificate and you'll be fine. In most trades it is quite easy to get credit for documented hands-on experience and sometimes be required only to pass some simple exams to complement training or apprenticeship to get trade certificate. Why won't you do just that? What is the problem? Why do you think that only university educated candidates can score enough points?

If you cannot prove your qualifications to proper authority in your country granting trade certificate in your profession then how you want Canadian immigration authorities to accept your claim????


Originally Posted by jjanj

How about a bit of tollerance and support for everyone.
J

Last edited by Andrew Miller; Jun 9th 2005 at 7:51 pm.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 7:22 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by proo
Maybe the point is that they don't want people coming over who will just end up working in McDs or something (no offence to McD employees). At least with degrees or transferable trade certificates you would be more likley to find some decent work. It would suck going through the whole process to find out you couldn't work in your field because you're not qualified.
Proo, agreed but also please see my comments above - it seems our posts crossed whilst being submitted. I certainly wasn't debating what the score level should be, despite the insulting rhetoric from Andrew, I was merely interested if all the applicants were degree holders thereby getting that valuable extra 7 points. It would appear that AM has opened old wounds and certainly a can of worms with his post but that was not my intent. It certainly annoyed my wife when she read it, enough in fact that she phoned me at work to vent.

Anyway, keep posting.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 7:41 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Hi Tangram,
I'm also an uneducated bufoon and just scrape through with 67 points, join the club! We're the monkeys sat in the corner trying to sit on our elbows
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 7:52 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

How does a Diploma of Higher Education earned from completing 2 years of a 3 year bachelors degree score?
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 7:59 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Bleech
Hi Tangram,
I'm also an uneducated bufoon and just scrape through with 67 points, join the club! We're the monkeys sat in the corner trying to sit on our elbows
Bleech, feel free to contact me, seeing as we are geographically nearby. Maybe share experiences / tips / background research.
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 8:04 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Single, at least 2-year Bachelor level university degree obtained after 14 years of education earns 20 points.

The same 20 points are given for a 2-years (non-university) diploma, trade certificate or apprenticeship with 14 years of education (remember that on job training or apprenticeship is as good as attending classes as long as proper authorities in your country see it that way).

Originally Posted by Kazphillips
How does a Diploma of Higher Education earned from completing 2 years of a 3 year bachelors degree score?
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Old Jun 9th 2005, 8:19 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers - How did you get the points ?

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
Single, at least 2-year Bachelor level university degree obtained after 14 years of education earns 20 points.

The same 20 points are given for a 2-years (non-university) diploma, trade certificate or apprenticeship with 14 years of education (remember that on job training or apprenticeship is as good as attending classes as long as proper authorities in your country see it that way).
Despite the fact that your grammar in previous posts leaves a lot to be desired, you may be unaware that in I.T. - barring MSCD - you cannot just go along to a nameless society and get some certificate to show your experience. This is probably part of the reason why CVs and employer letters are requested, all of which I included when I sent to pack off last week.
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