Skilled Workers 2013

Old Oct 25th 2012, 10:42 am
  #16  
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by helcat12
As for fraud, if what I have read on canadavisa is any proof, it was actually FSW Cat 1 and family class which were the main focus for fraud once the AEO time increased, with false claims of kinship and false work experience claims being made to satisfy the requirements.
From what I have heard, there were already incidences of submitting fraudulent language test results too, so even that isn't safe.
Yes. There are (reputedly) companies, especially in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh etc where you can employ people to take IELTS tests. They turn up with phoney ID and take the test for you and you get your IELTS cert.

The quality of English of some of the posts on canadavisa.com (from people claiming to have 7 or 8+ scores on IELTS but cannot construct a sentence) would support this.

Of course, the forging of education certificates is not unheard of.

And yes about the false relatives. Some guy on Canadavisa, last year I think, was boasting how he'd fooled CIC by getting some random guy from the village he grew up in, who happened to share his surname but was otherwise unrelated to him, to pretend to be his uncle.

And let us not forget the massive proof of funds fraudulence. Common place to borrow money from a company and "hide" it from CIC by submitting a bank certificate stating the balance only.

Some people on canadavisa even brag about how they managed to fool CIC.

Then these people arrive in Canada, can't get a job because some of them speak very poor English (phoney IELTS results) and their borrowed funds (phoney POF) dwindles very quickly. So soon they are heavily in debt and rely off the state to support them.


What's always annoyed me about this level of fraudulence is that it is not victimless, whenever someone gets a visa fraudulently, that's an honest applicant who isn't going to get one.

Given how openly people on some forums boast about cheating the system, and the amount of information they divulge about their application, it really shouldn't take a rocket scientist to catch these people.

If I were CIC I'd employ one guy to do nothing but browse these forums trying to feret out the fraudsters.

Wayne.
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 10:46 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by Waggle
Yes. There are (reputedly) companies, especially in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh etc where you can employ people to take IELTS tests. They turn up with phoney ID and take the test for you and you get your IELTS cert.

The quality of English of some of the posts on canadavisa.com (from people claiming to have 7 or 8+ scores on IELTS but cannot construct a sentence) would support this.

Of course, the forging of education certificates is not unheard of.

And yes about the false relatives. Some guy on Canadavisa, last year I think, was boasting how he'd fooled CIC by getting some random guy from the village he grew up in, who happened to share his surname but was otherwise unrelated to him, to pretend to be his uncle.

And let us not forget the massive proof of funds fraudulence. Common place to borrow money from a company and "hide" it from CIC by submitting a bank certificate stating the balance only.

Some people on canadavisa even brag about how they managed to fool CIC.

Then these people arrive in Canada, can't get a job because some of them speak very poor English (phoney IELTS results) and their borrowed funds (phoney POF) dwindles very quickly. So soon they are heavily in debt and rely off the state to support them.


What's always annoyed me about this level of fraudulence is that it is not victimless, whenever someone gets a visa fraudulently, that's an honest applicant who isn't going to get one.

Given how openly people on some forums boast about cheating the system, and the amount of information they divulge about their application, it really shouldn't take a rocket scientist to catch these people.

If I were CIC I'd employ one guy to do nothing but browse these forums trying to feret out the fraudsters.

Wayne.
I've thought the same thing actually!
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 11:33 am
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Hi


Originally Posted by mandymoochops
If fraudulent applications were the majority then you might have a point. Luckily they are not (and i'm talking applications in general not just from specific areas) - what the powers that be have to do is to come up with a solution that best fits 1st) Canadas needs 2nd) procedural fairness for every applicant and 3rdly) the least opportunity for fraud.

People will exploit whatever systems they can if they want something enough. its the old "you can please some of the people all of the time" scenario. Question is, what people are they trying to please? if you bear in mind immigration is not a right.

In the 2010 review of the FSW program, the following notes were made:

The case studies showed that the quality of applications with AEOs varies across the missions. For example, the Buffalo office reports that most AEOs are approved and points awarded (about 90%), while the New Delhi office estimated an acceptance rate of about 30%. New Delhi officers have been compiling information on small businesses that have made multiple job offers.

Examples of fraudulent AEO applications include job offers from non-existent employers, fictitious positions incompatible with the type of business or business operations, offers of convenience from friends or family members, and genuine offers with inflated job descriptions. There is also a concern in CVOAs that AEOs can be purchased and that clients are being lured to pay large fees to consultants for job offers that they believe await them in Canada. Fraud is generally hard to prove, and AEO fraud-related refusals cannot be extracted from the administrative systems. Some visa offices are conducting independent investigations in an effort to demonstrate the lack of integrity and level of fraud associated with AEOs.

In the interviews, CVOA staff (particularly those from Hong Kong and New Delhi) indicated that applicants often use AEOs to compensate for not receiving sufficient points under the language or education criteria (or more recently, as a means to by-pass Ministerial Instructions and the list of 38 occupations; the percentage of FSWs with AEOs has increased significantly since the introduction of Ministerial Instructions in 200833).

Visa officers in Hong Kong believe that the increase in AEO applications under IRPA has at least to some extent impacted the drop in the approval rates in recent years. For example, as outlined in Table 3‑4, the Hong Kong office has seen a significant increase in AEO applications, most notably in the last few years, and a significant drop in approval rates (from over 90% at the time of IRPA implementation to just over 40% in 2007, and to only 24% in 2008 - likely due to the introduction of Ministerial Instructions). In the view of the visa office staff, this trend might have been, at least in part, the result of applicants abusing AEO in the desire to compensate for lower scores on other criteria (e.g. English language skills) or to get a priority assessment.
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 12:46 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by PMM
Hi





In the 2010 review of the FSW program, the following notes were made:

The case studies showed that the quality of applications with AEOs varies across the missions. For example, the Buffalo office reports that most AEOs are approved and points awarded (about 90%), while the New Delhi office estimated an acceptance rate of about 30%. New Delhi officers have been compiling information on small businesses that have made multiple job offers.

Examples of fraudulent AEO applications include job offers from non-existent employers, fictitious positions incompatible with the type of business or business operations, offers of convenience from friends or family members, and genuine offers with inflated job descriptions. There is also a concern in CVOAs that AEOs can be purchased and that clients are being lured to pay large fees to consultants for job offers that they believe await them in Canada. Fraud is generally hard to prove, and AEO fraud-related refusals cannot be extracted from the administrative systems. Some visa offices are conducting independent investigations in an effort to demonstrate the lack of integrity and level of fraud associated with AEOs.

In the interviews, CVOA staff (particularly those from Hong Kong and New Delhi) indicated that applicants often use AEOs to compensate for not receiving sufficient points under the language or education criteria (or more recently, as a means to by-pass Ministerial Instructions and the list of 38 occupations; the percentage of FSWs with AEOs has increased significantly since the introduction of Ministerial Instructions in 200833).

Visa officers in Hong Kong believe that the increase in AEO applications under IRPA has at least to some extent impacted the drop in the approval rates in recent years. For example, as outlined in Table 3‑4, the Hong Kong office has seen a significant increase in AEO applications, most notably in the last few years, and a significant drop in approval rates (from over 90% at the time of IRPA implementation to just over 40% in 2007, and to only 24% in 2008 - likely due to the introduction of Ministerial Instructions). In the view of the visa office staff, this trend might have been, at least in part, the result of applicants abusing AEO in the desire to compensate for lower scores on other criteria (e.g. English language skills) or to get a priority assessment.
Not disputing that there aren't many many fraudulant applications, however (and you are the one with first hand knowledge)you can't tell me that there are more fraudulent applications made than not surely (across the board I mean).

I can see that the majority would come from the East but CIC can't put one system in place for one set of people and one for another - that's why it's got to be an across the board policy - and a language one would slot into that little niche nicely ( this is all personal opinion based on no knowledge of facts or experience whatsoever )
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 3:18 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by nikki dreaming
wow, for someone deferring to the greater expertise you must have had a lot of spare time on your hands this afternoon
Just got a day off and thinking time to spare.

I like to interrogate people who know stuff - that's how you learn
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 3:22 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by helcat12
Just got a day off and thinking time to spare.

I like to interrogate people who know stuff - that's how you learn
Are you hoping to become an immigration advisor ?
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 3:29 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
Are you hoping to become an immigration advisor ?
No, just trying to be a little better informed than the average Canadian about who and why they let people into the country.

I never really knew anything about immigration into my own country and now that I see what a difference how it is run makes both to the applicants and the society as a whole, I would like to understand it better.
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 3:32 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by helcat12
No, just trying to be a little better informed than the average Canadian about who and why they let people into the country.

I never really knew anything about immigration into my own country and now that I see what a difference how it is run makes both to the applicants and the society as a whole, I would like to understand it better.
Each to their own . . whilst i like a little immigration info, I think i can be better served boning up on something relevant to my job or leisure and pleasure pursuits.

Enjoy
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 3:41 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by mandymoochops
If fraudulent applications were the majority then you might have a point. Luckily they are not (and i'm talking applications in general not just from specific areas) - what the powers that be have to do is to come up with a solution that best fits 1st) Canadas needs 2nd) procedural fairness for every applicant and 3rdly) the least opportunity for fraud.

People will exploit whatever systems they can if they want something enough. its the old "you can please some of the people all of the time" scenario. Question is, what people are they trying to please? if you bear in mind immigration is not a right.
The people making these decisions are politicians, so at a wild guess I would say that they are primarily trying to please whichever big business is going to give them jobs once they are no longer in power.
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 3:42 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
Each to their own . . whilst i like a little immigration info, I think i can be better served boning up on something relevant to my job or leisure and pleasure pursuits.

Enjoy
Already done some of that today - variety is the spice of life.
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 3:51 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by helcat12
The people making these decisions are politicians, so at a wild guess I would say that they are primarily trying to please whichever big business is going to give them jobs once they are no longer in power.
Thanks for clearing that up I had no idea.

whilst I appreciate there are some politicians that want to line their own pockets, the eternal optimist in me wants to believe that most are in it for the right reasons - ya know - changing the world for the good / serving the people etc.
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 3:58 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by mandymoochops
Thanks for clearing that up I had no idea.

whilst I appreciate there are some politicians that want to line their own pockets, the eternal optimist in me wants to believe that most are in it for the right reasons - ya know - changing the world for the good / serving the people etc.

They do say ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy!
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 4:02 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by helcat12
The people making these decisions are politicians, so at a wild guess I would say that they are primarily trying to please whichever big business is going to give them jobs once they are no longer in power.
If the politicians make the decisions about who comes in then the lawyers who write up the legislation could somebody please tell the workers at CBSA and CIC exactly WTF do they mean.
Have you read some of the legislation, regulations, policies that people without a legal background are supposed to understand. As for the forms and application packages that CIC give you to fill out then there is sufficient evidence on the Immigration threads that they are hard to understand and fill out or that the Brits applying are pretty thick
If they elected to simplify some of the legislation into laymans terms then I tend to think the system might run a little smoother.
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Old Oct 25th 2012, 4:05 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
If the politicians make the decisions about who comes in then the lawyers who write up the legislation could somebody please tell the workers at CBSA and CIC exactly WTF do they mean.
Have you read some of the legislation, regulations, policies that people without a legal background are supposed to understand. As for the forms and application packages that CIC give you to fill out then there is sufficient evidence on the Immigration threads that they are hard to understand and fill out or that the Brits applying are pretty thick
If they elected to simplify some of the legislation into laymans terms then I tend to think the system might run a little smoother.
Am sure Helcat read them all and inwardly digested them this afternoon - she can prob send you a quick summary if you ask nicely

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Old Oct 25th 2012, 4:05 pm
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Default Re: Skilled Workers 2013

Originally Posted by helcat12
They do say ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy!
I do enjoy my ignorance - it makes life simple - have fun with your cynicism.
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