Rehabilitation

Old Nov 16th 2016, 9:43 pm
  #1  
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Default Rehabilitation

I am looking to emigrate from the UK to Canada with my Canadian spouse.

I have two historic convictions:

One summary offence charged and fined 10 years ago.
One indictable offence charged and fined 17 years ago.

Both appear in my police subject access report.

I have contacted the courts to get the details for evidence of completion etc.

For the offences I have the details of the offence etc but they are unable to provide me with any confirmation that the fines were paid because they were so long ago and they don't keep those records that long.

I am assuming that 1 summary and 1 indictable this long ago is ok for deemed rehabilitation?

The conditions state though that the time period starts once the fines have been paid but I can't prove they were paid.

Will this be a problem?

Thanks

Dave
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Old Nov 16th 2016, 10:42 pm
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

Forget about the summary offence though it needs to be disclosed.
As for the indictable offence it will depend on what the offence was and how it equates to the offence if committed in Canada.

For example if it was a DUI then you would probably be deemed rehabilitated.
If it was Burglary then you would have to apply for individual rehabilitation.

More info needed on the indictable offence committed to give you a better answer. No Im not being nosey the type of indictable offence does matter for rehabilitation.
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Old Nov 16th 2016, 11:07 pm
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

Thanks for the reply.

The indictable offence was possession of a controlled substance with a £25 fine.

I can't prove either fines were paid though. Do they need that?

Thanks

Dave
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 4:54 am
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

Hello and welcome to BE!



Ask the court for a letter confirming there is no trace of oustanding money due (i.e. unpaid fines) - had you not paid them they would show as outstanding. Did you pay the fines in cash or by cheque? You may be able to obtain a copy from your bank if it was a cheque.. or did you by any chance keep the receipt somewhere?


Last edited by Siouxie; Nov 17th 2016 at 4:56 am.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 5:17 am
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

I tried that and the courts in London directed me to their fines department and they said it was too long ago. I said if they had no record then does that prove that there is no outstanding debt and they said no because after so long they wipe out the debt and the records aren't kept. So for example if they aren't able to recover the fine or get hold of the person then they eventually forget it and records automatically get deleted which is the same as though it was for a paid or unpaid fine.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 7:08 am
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

Originally Posted by DBanks
I tried that and the courts in London directed me to their fines department and they said it was too long ago. I said if they had no record then does that prove that there is no outstanding debt and they said no because after so long they wipe out the debt and the records aren't kept. So for example if they aren't able to recover the fine or get hold of the person then they eventually forget it and records automatically get deleted which is the same as though it was for a paid or unpaid fine.
Darn. My son did it that way as he was told by his local court (in Sussex) that if there were any outstanding fines they would show up, regardless.

According to the National Debt Line and Citizens Advice (on fines), had you not paid it (it says) they would have made an attachment of earnings, sent round a bailiff or even issued an arrest warrant, so I'm not sure why the London court says it would be written off - strange.

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/...ourtdebt.aspx#

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/de...orised-to-act/

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Old Nov 17th 2016, 8:13 am
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

It relates to systems that were used for fines back in 1999. This is the email trail I had with the fines officer in London:

I am trying to get an official confirmation that a fine was paid and when it was paid for a conviction in 1999.
I have received from the courts archives the detail of the conviction but I also need details re the fine payment for a visa application.
Is this something you will be able to do please?
------------
Unfortunately due to the age of the fine, it has been deleted from our electronic system as paid. Therefore our department are unable to provide any information regarding the specific payment method, the only information we would be able to provide is the same that the Courts have provided.

Designated Fines Officer.
London Collection and Compliance Centre.
HMCTS -London.
-------------------
Is there anyway of saying in what period the fine was paid, as to whether it was paid within the required 14 days or which year or decade please? Or when the record would have been deleted etc?
-----------------------
Unfortunately due to the computer system we used in 1999 accounts which were paid were deleted off the system after 40 days due to data storage issues. A paper record was kept for 6 years but was then destroyed in accorance with data retention requirements.

I regret to say therefore that there is therefore no way of tracing whether this fine was paid.

Although I'm sure it will not be of any help to you but our new computer system, delivered in 2008/9 retains records of all fines (paid or unpaid) permanently.
--------------------
I need some idea/confirmation that the fine was paid back in 1999. Without this it is likely my visa application will be rejected.
---------------------
Unfortunately it isn't that simple.

We have the option to write fines off if we can't locate the offender. If written off as untraceabe in those days it would have been deleted and the system treated both types of fine as paid as there is no balance on the account. So all we know for your fine is it is no longer on the system.

That could mean it had been paid or written of as untraceable. We cannot confirm which as no record now exists. Again the new computer system does not delete fines written off as untraceable.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 8:20 am
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

Ah. My son just got a letter from them stating that there was no record of any outstanding fine. I wonder if they would be able to just confirm that bit?

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Old Nov 17th 2016, 9:24 am
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

Originally Posted by DBanks
Thanks for the reply.

The indictable offence was possession of a controlled substance with a £25 fine.

I can't prove either fines were paid though. Do they need that?

Thanks

Dave
Chances are you will be found admissible for the indictable offence and deemed rehabilitated. In that letter from HMCTS they state that due to the age the fine has been deleted as paid. I would stick with that as its basically saying it was paid. The fine amount is minimal and used on the above statement I wouldn't be overly concerned if seeking entry at a POE and even CIC would tend to use the statement from HMCTS that the fine was paid.

I wouldn't lose sleep over trying to prove the fine was paid. You need to print off that letter from HMTCS and submit that with any application.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 9:36 am
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
Chances are you will be found admissible for the indictable offence and deemed rehabilitated. In that letter from HMCTS they state that due to the age the fine has been deleted as paid. I would stick with that as its basically saying it was paid. The fine amount is minimal and used on the above statement I wouldn't be overly concerned if seeking entry at a POE and even CIC would tend to use the statement from HMCTS that the fine was paid.

I wouldn't lose sleep over trying to prove the fine was paid. You need to print off that letter from HMTCS and submit that with any application.
Good thinking!

This bit, I presume..

I am trying to get an official confirmation that a fine was paid and when it was paid for a conviction in 1999.
I have received from the courts archives the detail of the conviction but I also need details re the fine payment for a visa application.
Is this something you will be able to do please?
------------
Unfortunately due to the age of the fine, it has been deleted from our electronic system as paid. Therefore our department are unable to provide any information regarding the specific payment method, the only information we would be able to provide is the same that the Courts have provided.

Designated Fines Officer.
London Collection and Compliance Centre.
HMCTS -London.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 10:00 am
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

Originally Posted by Siouxie
Good thinking!

This bit, I presume..

I am trying to get an official confirmation that a fine was paid and when it was paid for a conviction in 1999.
I have received from the courts archives the detail of the conviction but I also need details re the fine payment for a visa application.
Is this something you will be able to do please?
------------
Unfortunately due to the age of the fine, it has been deleted from our electronic system as paid. Therefore our department are unable to provide any information regarding the specific payment method, the only information we would be able to provide is the same that the Courts have provided.

Designated Fines Officer.
London Collection and Compliance Centre.
HMCTS -London.
Exactly I read that as they consider the fine paid.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 8:33 pm
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Default Re: Rehabilitation

OK. I can do that. I just thought they needed to know when the fine was paid because the rehabilitation starts once the fine has been paid.

For the summary offence it was in Belgium and I have been unable to track any details of any fine being paid due to language barriers and trying to find the correct department and also because the offence no longer appears on my Belgium certificate or record because of their retention periods. But because of the UK PNC retention it stays on there until I'm 100.
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