PR query

Old Jan 24th 2013, 2:41 am
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Hello everyone,

Well, we're starting out on our journey towards living in Canada and this website has been a great help so far!
The stage we're at presently is that hubby received a verbal job offer to go to Alberta, either as a carpenter or 'carpenters helper'. (the job agency dealing with it didn't say which yet or anything about wages etc...obviously hoping it's the former position). The LMO has been applied for at their end so fingers crossed it will be all ok, can agree terms and we'll be on our way.

We're also hoping to apply for PR on the back of this job offer. There's a few things we're not sure on though so if anyone knows the answer to the questions below that would be greatly appreciated.


So the things we're not sure on..

Does the job offer need to be NOC A or B or O for it to qualify for PR?

And if he gets the offer in writing, can we go ahead and apply for PR as soon as he gets it or is the process on hold til May even with the offer and required points?

Does his experience in a NOC B trade other than carpentry count for maximum points or is his work as a carpenter only taken into account?
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 4:14 am
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Default Re: PR query

Hi, and welcome to BE.

Originally Posted by John and Sally
The stage we're at presently is that hubby received a verbal job offer to go to Alberta, either as a carpenter or 'carpenters helper'. (the job agency dealing with it didn't say which yet or anything about wages etc...obviously hoping it's the former position).
Congrats! But how can you not know what the job is or what wages are on offer? If they've already applied for the LMO then presumably you have a job offer letter/contract? I'd look in to that asap, as you may find that the salary or job on offer isn't worth moving for anyway (or will get a LMO).

Originally Posted by John and Sally
Does the job offer need to be NOC A or B or O for it to qualify for PR?
As you are going to Alberta, then yes, it would have to be to apply for PR as FSW, CEC, or PNP (Alberta does have a semi-skilled stream under the PNP, but I don't believe any of the occupations under it are carpentry related).

Originally Posted by John and Sally
And if he gets the offer in writing, can we go ahead and apply for PR as soon as he gets it or is the process on hold til May even with the offer and required points?
I assume you're talking about the FSW program here? If that's the route you choose to apply for PR, then you can apply before May if you have a job offer - but do note that a job offer letter isn't enough to apply, you'd need to have either an AEO or LMO/TWP.

Originally Posted by John and Sally
Does his experience in a NOC B trade other than carpentry count for maximum points or is his work as a carpenter only taken into account?
Any 'skilled' work counts. Don't forget to check the new points test though, not the old one!

HTH, good luck.
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 5:06 am
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Default Re: PR query

Thanks a mill for the quick reply!

Originally Posted by christmasoompa
But how can you not know what the job is or what wages are on offer?
After enquiring, we've just heard back from the agency that the job on offer is Cribber NOC 7611 and wage will be around $20 p/h.
So it looks like a promotion is required before we can think about PR..
Well, it's a big company and he has a good few years experience so it won't put us off going.

If they've already applied for the LMO then presumably you have a job offer letter/contract?
Hmm..All we've received so far is an email from the agency saying he was successful, congrats so far and that an LMO is being applied for and would he reply to confirm interest which he did. Then another email to say that when (hopefully) the LMO was approved, then he would be invited to the office to sign the contract. Nothing about the job or wages until just now when we enquired.
Should the alarm bells be ringing or is this the normal procedure? The company and agency seem reputable by the looks of it.
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 5:16 am
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Default Re: PR query

Originally Posted by John and Sally
After enquiring, we've just heard back from the agency that the job on offer is Cribber NOC 7611 and wage will be around $20 p/h.
So it looks like a promotion is required before we can think about PR..
Well, it's a big company and he has a good few years experience so it won't put us off going.
Yep, no route to PR for that. $20ph is low, are you sure you can survive on that? Particularly as you won't be able to get a spousal open work permit either as the job isn't 'skilled'. It is just the two of you?

It might be worth starting a new thread in the main forum asking for info from people in the area to see if that is an ok wage to live on. Put the town/area in the thread title and hopefully you'll get some helpful responses from those close by.

Originally Posted by John and Sally
Hmm..All we've received so far is an email from the agency saying he was successful, congrats so far and that an LMO is being applied for and would he reply to confirm interest which he did. Then another email to say that when (hopefully) the LMO was approved, then he would be invited to the office to sign the contract. Nothing about the job or wages until just now when we enquired.
Should the alarm bells be ringing or is this the normal procedure? The company and agency seem reputable by the looks of it.
Just checking, but you've not paid anything to this agency have you? It isn't normal procedure at all to not have even told him what the job or wages are before applying for the LMO, no. As part of the LMO application they'd have to provide an employment contract, so why hasn't your hubby seen it or signed it yet?
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 6:03 am
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Default Re: PR query

Originally Posted by christmasoompa
Yep, no route to PR for that. $20ph is low, are you sure you can survive on that? Particularly as you won't be able to get a spousal open work permit either as the job isn't 'skilled'. It is just the two of you?
Yes just the two of us. The plan at the moment is he's going first, then I'll follow later in the year. Oh dear. We were told a spouse gets an open permit. It would be a game changer if that's not the case. Might need a job offer in my own right. Do you have a link to an official site that would confirm this? We seem to have been misinformed by the agency..

Just checking, but you've not paid anything to this agency have you?
No, we haven't paid anything. Responded to newspaper advert. Attended interview and were contacted a couple of week later by email. Police cert sent. That's all so far. They're quite a well-known agency with offices in city centre.

It isn't normal procedure at all to not have even told him what the job or wages are before applying for the LMO, no. As part of the LMO application they'd have to provide an employment contract, so why hasn't your hubby seen it or signed it yet?
That's worrying. He definitely hasn't seen or signed anything. The only thing I can think of is that it's an 'open' LMO? Or else they don't know what they're doing...
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 6:12 am
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Default Re: PR query

Originally Posted by John and Sally
Yes just the two of us. The plan at the moment is he's going first, then I'll follow later in the year. Oh dear. We were told a spouse gets an open permit. It would be a game changer if that's not the case. Might need a job offer in my own right. Do you have a link to an official site that would confirm this? We seem to have been misinformed by the agency..
Only spouses of TWP holders doing Skill Level A, O or B jobs qualify for an open work permit, as your husband would be doing a Skill Level D job, you definitely wouldn't. Here you go - http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/arriving.asp#a4

The only exception would be if your husband qualified under a pilot project, but as you can see from this link, there isn't one that would apply to him - http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/occupations.asp

So if you wanted to work, you would need to get a LMO/TWP in your own right, hence why I said the $20ph is low, as it's likely to be your only income for a while at least. What do you do?

I've never lived in AB, but $20 seems low to me, so I'd be very careful about moving for that unless you have a substantial amount of savings behind you - but do ask in the main forum where others from AB will be able to let you know what kind of standard of living you can expect on that salary.

Best of luck.

Last edited by christmasoompa; Jan 24th 2013 at 6:14 am.
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 6:57 am
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Default Re: PR query

Originally Posted by christmasoompa
So if you wanted to work, you would need to get a LMO/TWP in your own right, hence why I said the $20ph is low, as it's likely to be your only income for a while at least. What do you do?
I work in a pharmaceutical company. Yes it looks like I'll have to get an LMO myself now as I definitely want to work there too. Maybe he can look into getting his role changed after a bit of time worked. We'll see.

Just hope his LMO comes through now even though he hasn't even signed anything. That's the first hurdle.

Thanks so much for the replies and the links. Will keep you posted if you like.
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 7:30 am
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Default Re: PR query

Originally Posted by christmasoompa
As part of the LMO application they'd have to provide an employment contract, so why hasn't your hubby seen it or signed it yet?
According to the info below, they have to provide an employment contract but it doesn't have to be signed by hubby at that stage.

You must prepare and sign an employment contract - (PDF 54 KB). A signed copy must be attached to your Labour Market Opinion application. Upon receipt of a letter of confirmation from HRSDC/Service Canada, you must send a copy of the signed contract and the HRSDC/Service Canada confirmation letter to the foreign worker. The worker will need to submit these documents to Citizenship and Immigration Canada when applying for a work permit.
http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/workplace...s/lsasse.shtml
Panic over on that one at least.
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 7:35 am
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Default Re: PR query

No it doesn't have to be signed, but I still find it very odd that they've applied for the LMO before your husband even knew what job it was or what the salary was, it's just a strange way to do things.

But then I also find it odd that you're considering moving to Canada for $40k a year!
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 7:57 am
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Originally Posted by christmasoompa
No it doesn't have to be signed, but I still find it very odd that they've applied for the LMO before your husband even knew what job it was or what the salary was, it's just a strange way to do things.
I agree it was very strange. There were jobs for two occupations available. We didn't know which one it was until today.

But then I also find it odd that you're considering moving to Canada for $40k a year!
Things are bad at the moment where we live unfortunately. It's a case of take what's on the table; we're confident we'll eventually get on well once we get over there.
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 12:31 pm
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Have you looked into costs such as rent, car insurance, food, etc etc. I would not move to Alberta for $20 an hour. Is he a fully qualified carpenter in the UK?
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Old Jan 24th 2013, 5:46 pm
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Originally Posted by AmyDavid
Have you looked into costs such as rent, car insurance, food, etc etc. I would not move to Alberta for $20 an hour. Is he a fully qualified carpenter in the UK?
Hello, John here. Yes looked into the living cost in a bit of detail alright. $20 an hour will be a tight squeeze no doubts but at the interview they said there will be long days and saturday work available during the summer months and they work all year as well. Enough to live off for a while and it's Edmonton so can do without a car for a while as the sites are central. Yea was a bit gutted to find it was only the carpenters helper position. Was hoping it was going to be noc B. Hundreds applied for the jobs so they said and there were 10 positions for each. I said to them I'd take either as a good few were called for interview as well I'd say and things are desperate here for work.
I never qualified as a carpenter just learned on the job years ago. Started off site labouring, concreting etc then got into formwork that way. The interviewers were happy enough with my skill level and that I can read off plans and do what's required and have a good few years experience at this stage even though I've been doing mostly bathroom refurbishment for the last few years.

I'll go over anyway and see how it pans out even with spanner in the works about the visa. Herself can pick up something later I'm sure as she's determined and not put off just yet. She'll stay put in her job for the moment if needs be. We're still hopeful something can happen like the company change my lmo over to carpenter after a little while then maybe apply for PR or the experience class thing or the nominee program. Not sure if that's possible or not. I have severe learning difficulties when it comes to all this visa stuff so the better half is the best one for that. The only thing with nominee from reading it is that some of my carpentry experience was done about 10 years ago and more so trying to get good proof of all that might be a struggle to get the 72 months. All the payslips are long gone but I can get references for all of it I think so maybe that will do.
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Old Jan 25th 2013, 1:24 am
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Default Re: PR query

Hi John.

Originally Posted by John and Sally
Yes looked into the living cost in a bit of detail alright. $20 an hour will be a tight squeeze no doubts but at the interview they said there will be long days and saturday work available during the summer months and they work all year as well. Enough to live off for a while and it's Edmonton so can do without a car for a while as the sites are central.
I know I'm going to sound horribly negative, but a lot of this is ringing alarm bells. Managing without a car is rare in Canada, how will you get to the sites if it's -25 outside? If sites are in central Edmonton, and you have no car, then presumably you'll have to live in central Edmonton which won't be as cheap as living elsewhere. And the fact that they're telling you you'll have extra hours is also concerning, often promises don't live up to reality, so please don't count on that when doing your sums.

Bear in mind that on a TWP you can't work for anybody else, so if you get less hours than expected (unfortunately a common tale on this forum - see this post as an example.......http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...81#post9858181) then will you survive financially, especially if your wife cannot find a job for a few months which is the norm even with a SOWP - could take longer if she requires an employer to go through the paperwork/hassle/wait of a LMO application.

I know I'm being incredibly negative, but given that it'll cost you £10k or so to move over and set up life in Canada, is it worth risking that amount of money only to struggle? Particularly if you have no clear route to PR either, so you're even more at the company's mercy than most people.

As I suggested to your wife, it would be worth you starting a thread in the main Canada forum for people in the area you are moving to, to get their opinions on the cost of living there and if you will manage on that salary. They can also tell you if living without a car is realistic. Then you'll get the real deal from those living there, I'm only guessing!

Best of luck.
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Old Jan 25th 2013, 3:23 am
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Default Re: PR query

Originally Posted by John and Sally
Hello, John here. Yes looked into the living cost in a bit of detail alright. $20 an hour will be a tight squeeze no doubts but at the interview they said there will be long days and saturday work available during the summer months and they work all year as well. Enough to live off for a while and it's Edmonton so can do without a car for a while as the sites are central. Yea was a bit gutted to find it was only the carpenters helper position. Was hoping it was going to be noc B. Hundreds applied for the jobs so they said and there were 10 positions for each. I said to them I'd take either as a good few were called for interview as well I'd say and things are desperate here for work.
I never qualified as a carpenter just learned on the job years ago. Started off site labouring, concreting etc then got into formwork that way. The interviewers were happy enough with my skill level and that I can read off plans and do what's required and have a good few years experience at this stage even though I've been doing mostly bathroom refurbishment for the last few years.

I'll go over anyway and see how it pans out even with spanner in the works about the visa. Herself can pick up something later I'm sure as she's determined and not put off just yet. She'll stay put in her job for the moment if needs be. We're still hopeful something can happen like the company change my lmo over to carpenter after a little while then maybe apply for PR or the experience class thing or the nominee program. Not sure if that's possible or not. I have severe learning difficulties when it comes to all this visa stuff so the better half is the best one for that. The only thing with nominee from reading it is that some of my carpentry experience was done about 10 years ago and more so trying to get good proof of all that might be a struggle to get the 72 months. All the payslips are long gone but I can get references for all of it I think so maybe that will do.
I guess you will do what you will do but I really would seriously not rush into this. Speaking as the Wife of a soon to be ex construction worker - what the company says about the amount of work around and the actual amount of work around is wildly different.

Yes they CAN work all through the year, but most have low spells in the winter, where work is tight and last ones in are the ones sitting at home not getting paid. Do you have money to help you out if this happens? Do they offer medical cover for you? If not - can you afford to pay for this out of your pay? As a construction worker you will need to have this - just in case.

What is your Wife's occupation? Is she not eligible to apply under the up and coming new FSW stream, that opens in May?
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Old Jan 25th 2013, 5:08 am
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Default Re: PR query

Originally Posted by christmasoompa
Hi John.



I know I'm going to sound horribly negative, but a lot of this is ringing alarm bells. Managing without a car is rare in Canada, how will you get to the sites if it's -25 outside? If sites are in central Edmonton, and you have no car, then presumably you'll have to live in central Edmonton which won't be as cheap as living elsewhere. And the fact that they're telling you you'll have extra hours is also concerning, often promises don't live up to reality, so please don't count on that when doing your sums.

Bear in mind that on a TWP you can't work for anybody else, so if you get less hours than expected (unfortunately a common tale on this forum - see this post as an example.......http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...81#post9858181) then will you survive financially, especially if your wife cannot find a job for a few months which is the norm even with a SOWP - could take longer if she requires an employer to go through the paperwork/hassle/wait of a LMO application.

I know I'm being incredibly negative, but given that it'll cost you £10k or so to move over and set up life in Canada, is it worth risking that amount of money only to struggle? Particularly if you have no clear route to PR either, so you're even more at the company's mercy than most people.

As I suggested to your wife, it would be worth you starting a thread in the main Canada forum for people in the area you are moving to, to get their opinions on the cost of living there and if you will manage on that salary. They can also tell you if living without a car is realistic. Then you'll get the real deal from those living there, I'm only guessing!

Best of luck.
Thanks a mill for the honest opinion. It's very helpful to get all this sound advice and an experienced perspective on the situation. Food for thought.

And yes I'll start another discussion later.. as soon as I pick myself up off the floor from reading a bit of that thread. What a harrowing situation for her and family. Hope it worked out ok in the end; will read some more in a bit.

We're only too aware ourselves how unpredictable construction work can be so we will definitely be budgeting for a similar situation just in case. All one can do is plan for possible hiccups along the way and hope the summer will be as busy as they're making out.
We're certainly not considering selling up or moving all possessions on the basis of this TWP. If things don't work out eventually PR-wise for us, it might just turn out to be an enjoyable extended (car-free) working trip.
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