PR Card

Old Jul 6th 2011, 5:49 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by iaink
Legally thats not true because the visa waiver rights and privileges apply only to visitors, so as a PR you have no legal right to travel under the visa waiver scheme.

If a jobsworth airline employee wants to make life miserable for a returning PR without the card then technically they can because the visa waiver program does not apply to a PR, and an airline employee does not have the training or facilities to establish that a paper form is not a forgery, or that a travellers PR requirements have been met, hence the (faint) possibilitiy of them insisting on seing a PR card.

Thats my dodgy understanding of the technicalities anyway... Having said that Im not aware of anyone actually refused boarding, not a UK passport holder anyway.

By the way "not valid for travel" does not mean exactly what it says... one of the immigration bods explained it once but I forget the details...
Any decent 'jobsworth' airline employee would check with immigration if they are in doubt.......Basically if immigration ever decided to not let someone in the deportation fee would be charged to the airline that brought the individual in and in turn would be reflected on that member of staff for not pursuing it.........Its not worth losing your job over for a few moments of checking. I worked for airlines for many years and was one of those jobsworths.......Working in Glasgow we were able to call immigration to check the systems from our check-in desk. Took a few minutes which no passenger EVER liked but I would rather it was checked both for the passenger and our airline.
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 6:06 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by Canuck2b
Any decent 'jobsworth' airline employee would check with immigration if they are in doubt.......Basically if immigration ever decided to not let someone in the deportation fee would be charged to the airline that brought the individual in and in turn would be reflected on that member of staff for not pursuing it.........Its not worth losing your job over for a few moments of checking. I worked for airlines for many years and was one of those jobsworths.......Working in Glasgow we were able to call immigration to check the systems from our check-in desk. Took a few minutes which no passenger EVER liked but I would rather it was checked both for the passenger and our airline.
UK immigration wont know anything about canadian immigration status or rules would they? I've stood next to the checker at gatwick while he clarified something with his supervisor. The supervisor leafed through his notebook of all the worlds destinations and gave him info that I know to be not true, basically it was what the CIC website said. Fortunately the passenger was able to convince them otherwise as they were on the return leg of a flight from canada and had the ROLF form in the passport. I guess some common sense and discretion was applied. At least thats what it looked like on the surface.

The PR card was devised specifically so that airline employees would not have to deal with issues surrounding counterfeit landing docs and the like, the system is devised so that they can operate independently.

But the information that CIC dole out does not tie in with the reality on the ground which is:

Hundreds of thousands of brits with nothing but a passport travel to canada every year as tourists, so a UK passport holder with no other paperwork need no fear rejection at the point of entry.

Even if CIC are going to take your PR status away for non compliance with the residency requirements, they still have to admit you in order to do that.

The fact that you dont have a PR card does not mean you are not a PR. There is no obligation to keep a current PR card.

So the bottom line is that there is really no need for CIC to be issuing advice to British PRs that they need a travel document. The only small chance of a problem is boarding the plane. In reality this isnt at all likely, and Im not aware of any UK passport holder failing to get back to canada as a result of not having the PR card or travel document.

Last edited by iaink; Jul 6th 2011 at 6:14 pm. Reason: important "not" missing...
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 6:12 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by iaink
UK immigration wont know anything about canadian immigration status. I've stood next to the jobsworth at gatwick while he "checked" something with his supervisor. The supervisor leafed through his notebook of all the worlds destinations and gave him info that I know to be not true, basically it was what the CIC website said. Fortunately the passenger was able to convince them otherwise as they were on the return leg of a flight from canada and had the ROLF form in the passport.

The PR card was devised specifically so that airline employees would not have to deal with issues surrounding counterfeit landing docs and the like, the system is devised so that they can operate independently.

But the information that CIC dole out does not tie in with the reality on the ground which is:

Hundreds of thousands of brits with nothing but a passport travel to canada every year as tourists

Even if CIC are going to take your PR status away, they still have to admit you in order to do that

The fact that you dont have a PR card does not mean you are a PR. There is no obligation to keep a current PR card.

So the bottom line is that there is really no need for CIC to be issuing advice to British PRs that they need a travel document. The only small chance of a problem is boarding the plane. In reality this isnt at all likely, and Im not aware of any UK passport holder failing to get back to canada as a result of not having the PR card or travel document.
I understand.

Back in the day we used an online system called timatic which we were able to gain as much info as possible for the passenger to travel. But, like you say it doesnt matter with the whole miscommunication issue anyway!

......And it was so black and white that it wouldnt cover every eventuality.
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 6:23 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: PR Card

It just seems like duplication of effort. The port of entry manual says:

The following documents are satisfactory indicators of permanent residence:
• the original Record of Landing:
• a certified true copy of a Record of Landing document issued by CIC National Headquarters;
• a letter issued by CIC National Headquarters verifying permanent residence;
• a passport duly stamped showing the date on which permanent residence was granted, if the person was granted permanent resident status before 1973; and
• a Confirmation of Permanent Residence document [IMM 5292B].
and makes no mention of the travel document as a 'satisfactory indicator',
however the CIC website states that you must produce one of these ("Travel documents are issued to permanent residents abroad to provide proof to a transportation company that the holder is entitled to re-enter Canada as a permanent resident"). What CIC seem to be saying is that what actually demonstrates your PR status for the purposes of entry (and that, presumably, they have issued) isn't good enough to be used to prove PR travel status to the airline! I know someone earlier mentioned airlines not being able to identify forgeries (and obviously I am looking at this from a Commonwealth citizen standpoint) but I'd be curious to know if it's easier to forge a travel doc than a PR visa in a passport...
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 7:03 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: PR Card

As the quote points out, travel doc are for the sake of the carrier, not CIC. CIC have a nice big database to refer to of who has what status if there is any doubt.

In terms of forgery I suspect that a travel document is a rare enough commodity that the airline will check that the number and person its issued to match up with information provided by canadian immigration rather than just looking at the paper alone?.... I dont know how integrated all the information sources are but it would make sense to tag it to the passport info?

Kind of makes me wonder why they cant just attach your residency status to the info associated with the passport and save everyone the trouble of carrying the card. Must be harder to hack into a data base than to produce a phony card I would think?
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 8:30 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by chobert
Do you have the link or web address for where the PR cards can be tracked? Or is it the same ECAS site used when updating the status' of applications?
Thank you.
Yes I've used the ECAS website
https://services3.cic.gc.ca/ecas/?app=ecas&lang=en
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 10:50 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: PR Card

Think this site is just for the application process, ie. your initial application and detailed application to London etc.
I don't think it covers the "PR card" it's self, processing status.
Mine says "complete" after I landed. I still don't have my card yet!
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Old Jul 7th 2011, 4:01 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by iaink
By the way "not valid for travel" does not mean exactly what it says... one of the immigration bods explained it once but I forget the details...
"Not Valid For Travel" means that the document itself isnt valid to travel on - ie you need a passport aswell. least that what the immigration office told me at the border last year. simples!
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Old Jul 7th 2011, 4:16 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by Mdunny
"Not Valid For Travel" means that the document itself isnt valid to travel on - ie you need a passport aswell. least that what the immigration office told me at the border last year. simples!
Cheers, that sounds right...
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Old Jul 8th 2011, 7:37 pm
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Default Re: PR Card

OK I think I need similar advice please - my situation is slightly different as I want to fly to Las Vegas next month for a convention rather than return from UK.

We do not have PR cards as have been rejected due to photos. I rang the Immigration office and was told my only option was a travel document obtained from Los Angles which is not feasible!

I am also very confused after reading the Port of Entry manual and now unsure whether to cancel my trip . Returning from a trip to USA meet same issues as people above have worried about? Should I be OK with just my passport and PR insert? Any advice would be great!
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Old Jul 9th 2011, 3:26 am
  #41  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by delsol79
OK I think I need similar advice please - my situation is slightly different as I want to fly to Las Vegas next month for a convention rather than return from UK.

We do not have PR cards as have been rejected due to photos. I rang the Immigration office and was told my only option was a travel document obtained from Los Angles which is not feasible!

I am also very confused after reading the Port of Entry manual and now unsure whether to cancel my trip . Returning from a trip to USA meet same issues as people above have worried about? Should I be OK with just my passport and PR insert? Any advice would be great!
Read and absorb:
http://britishexpats.com/wiki/Perman...nt_Card-Canada

Nothing is ever guaranteed so you will have to make up your mind what you want to do. A forum cannot do that for you.
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Old Jul 9th 2011, 4:07 am
  #42  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by JAJ
Read and absorb:
http://britishexpats.com/wiki/Perman...nt_Card-Canada

Nothing is ever guaranteed so you will have to make up your mind what you want to do. A forum cannot do that for you.
Can I ask how up to date this wiki link is? I ask as it states if you apply within 6 months you can get it for free but the CIC website states you MUST pay and doesnt mention a free period.......Am I missing something or can we still get it for free in the time stated?

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/guides/5445E.PDF

The CIC PDF was updated in APR 2011. Thanks in advance!
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Old Jul 9th 2011, 4:14 am
  #43  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by JAJ
Read and absorb:
http://britishexpats.com/wiki/Perman...nt_Card-Canada

Nothing is ever guaranteed so you will have to make up your mind what you want to do. A forum cannot do that for you.
No I get it now - a grey area which should be fine but if not a need to take a long drive home

If worth anything I rang WestJet and they said they could see no problem with me boarding a flight in Las Vegas to Canada with a British passport.

I mean people do it all the time when on travels/holidays.
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Old Aug 8th 2011, 6:52 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: PR Card

Follow up if anyone is interested. I Q'd in the resident line at Vancouver and presented by British passport at the desk. He did ask why I did not yet have my PR card but was fine with my answer (photos rejected).

He seemed more concerned when I said I had been attending a hacking convention. That opened up a barrel full of awkward questions
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Old Aug 23rd 2011, 10:46 am
  #45  
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Default Re: PR Card

Originally Posted by T4T
Hi Miss Clinique

We landed on the 14th of April but returned to the UK 2 weeks. I've tried calling the call centre so many times but have never gotten through to the number. I've also tried tracking online to no avail.

Please if you don't mind me asking, are you currently in Canada? If not, which number did you get the call centre on?
Many thanks

T4T
Arrived back in Canada and was asked by immigration officer who attended why we didn't have our PR cards and I told him it was because we haven't received. He ranted on and on that we should have the cards the card to re enter Canada and asked me to go to the Immigration Canada office to "inform them that we leftC anada without our cards".
We went there and all the guy did was to check our details on his computer and he said that there's an image problem with the photos we submitted hence why we haven't received out cards. He asked me to call the Immigration helpline for further information.

I called the helpline and was informed that our photos were rejected on the 9th of June and that we'll have to take new photos and submit in person to their office in Toronto. However the lady I spoke said we'd have to wait to receive a letter from requesting for new pictures before we go to their office. How long does it take to send such a letter?

I quite surprised as we had the pictures taken at Snappy Snaps and were reassured that the photos are to the right specifications.

Has anyone received such a letter before? Is there a timeline for resubmitting the pictures?

Does anyone know where we can get the pictures taken in Mississuaga/Oakville?

Thanks
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