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Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

Old May 28th 2008, 8:45 am
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Default Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

Recently we visited Canada on holiday with the purpose of ‘landing’ and buying ourselves more time to sell our house in the UK.
By ‘landing’ before our Visas expired (having achieved Permanent Residence, after three and a half years of waiting), our plan was to be able to buy ourselves up to 3 years to return to the UK, sell our house and return to Canada (730 days residing in Canada within a 5 year period).
We did achieve this although it didn’t go quite to plan.

Because we were only going over there to buy more time (and not to stay for good, as we would have hoped) we did not have an address to give to the Immigration Officer where we would be living.
Because of this he said he was not able to fully process our landing and issue our PR cards.

He said this wasn’t a problem though and he gave us a form to fill in (Address Notification) and fax to Immigration once we had got an address. However, this had to be done within 3 months. Then our PR cards would be sent to that address.

He said that we had still ‘landed’ and therefore achieved what we wanted to. We had bought ourselves the time that we had wanted. I just hadn’t seen this little hurdle coming.
Had I foreseen this, I could have given a friends address in Ontario, but I really needed to ok it with him first.
During our holiday (we were over there for 10 days) I saw my friend and then filled the form in and faxed it to Immigration so that our PR cards could be processed and issued.
I phoned Immigration before doing this and they said it would be ok.
I told them that before the cards had chance to arrive (which could take up to 30 days) I would be returning to the UK to hopefully sell my house. This would then put me in the UK with my PR cards in Canada.

They said that they did not recommend I get my cards sent to the UK, in case they got lost. I would need to get a Permit to Travel (Travel Document) from the Canadian High Commission in London to allow me to return to Canada (as a returning resident). If I had my PR cards I would not need to do this.

I’ve looked at the CIC website and it isn’t simply a matter of getting a form and filling it in before you return to Canada.
You have to get the forms, pay a fee then apply for a Permit to Travel. I’m not quite sure how long this might take to do.
The fee is $50 per person (I think it’s per person anyway). Given that there is myself, my wife and our 2 young children, I’m not sure if I would need 2 permits or 4.

You have to include in your application, evidence of Permanent Resident status or landing in Canada.
They appear to ask for one of 3 items to prove this :
Returning Resident Permit.
Record of Landing.
Permanent Resident Card.

I don’t have any of these. I wasn’t given a Record of Landing (IMM 1000). Only our Confirmation of Permanent Residence (IMM 5292) was returned to us. That isn’t one of the three items they have asked for so I’m not sure whether that document would be acceptable.
Surely if I had a Permanent Resident card I wouldn’t require a Travel Document ?
So, clearly there is a concern there.

Oddly enough, under the overview for applying for a Travel Document (Permanent Resident Abroad) it tells you who should apply for a Travel Document and who should not apply.
Those who should apply are Permanent Residents of Canada who do not have an original Record of Landing, a valid Returning Resident Permit or a Permanent Resident Card. The very items they ask you to provide with your application !
You should not apply for a Travel Document if you are a holder of a Permanent Resident Card.
Hopefully, soon, I will be the holder of a Permanent Resident Card. It will just be in the wrong Country to me !
It’s very confusing but it gets worse.
Applications must be accompanied by evidence that Canadian permanent residence status has been maintained.
Upon receiving a fully completed application a visa Officer will perform a determination of permanent residency status to see if the applicant has complied with the obligations for maintaining permanent resident status in Canada.
In order to comply with the residency obligations a permanent resident must accumulate 2 years of physical presence in Canada in every 5-year period (as I suspected). However, the 5-year period considered for a residency determination application is the 5 years immediately preceding the date of the application for the Travel Document !
This concerns me a bit because how can I have been ? I only ‘landed’ on May 2nd.


I think my best option (possibly my only option) is to get my PR cards sent to me in the UK (by fedex or someone like that). I faxed my form to Immigration on May 9th so 30 days from then will be June 8. I just hope they arrive at my friends house with no problems.

All this has left me a bit uncertain about where I stand regarding getting back to Canada once we have eventually sold our house.

By the way, what am I (and my family) now ?
Are we British Citizens who are permanent residents of Canada ?
Are we British Citizens who have achieved PR status for Canada ?
Or something else ?
Will we always be British Citizens regardless of where we live, as long as we keep our British Passports valid ?
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Old May 28th 2008, 9:03 am
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Default Re: Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

what a night mare.. reading that has filled me with dread. I went over in April and landed with my family.I gave my sisters address in Toronto. she received my husbands and the children's cards 3 weeks ago but mine has failed to turn up. I'm not quite sure what to do as you can't contact them from outside the country to say its not been received. I presume I will have to get a travel permit when we return next year but I need to sort this out asap!
my situation gets worse as my sister has decided to move house !!!
good luck with your dilemma
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Old May 28th 2008, 10:39 am
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Default Re: Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

Originally Posted by jenny28
By the way, what am I (and my family) now ?
Are we British Citizens who are permanent residents of Canada ?
Are we British Citizens who have achieved PR status for Canada ?
Or something else ?
Will we always be British Citizens regardless of where we live, as long as we keep our British Passports valid ?
You are British Citizens who are permanent residents in Canada. If you are a British Citizen now, the only way you can lose that status is to formally renounce it. (This is not required, even if you eventually apply for Canadian Citizenship.)

If you don't keep your British Passport up to date you are simply a British Citizen with an out of date passport.
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Old May 28th 2008, 11:21 am
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Default Re: Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

Originally Posted by jenny28
Recently we visited Canada on holiday with the purpose of ‘landing’ and buying ourselves more time to sell our house in the UK.
By ‘landing’ before our Visas expired (having achieved Permanent Residence, after three and a half years of waiting), our plan was to be able to buy ourselves up to 3 years to return to the UK, sell our house and return to Canada (730 days residing in Canada within a 5 year period).
We did achieve this although it didn’t go quite to plan.

Because we were only going over there to buy more time (and not to stay for good, as we would have hoped) we did not have an address to give to the Immigration Officer where we would be living.
Because of this he said he was not able to fully process our landing and issue our PR cards.

He said this wasn’t a problem though and he gave us a form to fill in (Address Notification) and fax to Immigration once we had got an address. However, this had to be done within 3 months. Then our PR cards would be sent to that address.

He said that we had still ‘landed’ and therefore achieved what we wanted to. We had bought ourselves the time that we had wanted. I just hadn’t seen this little hurdle coming.
Had I foreseen this, I could have given a friends address in Ontario, but I really needed to ok it with him first.
During our holiday (we were over there for 10 days) I saw my friend and then filled the form in and faxed it to Immigration so that our PR cards could be processed and issued.
I phoned Immigration before doing this and they said it would be ok.
I told them that before the cards had chance to arrive (which could take up to 30 days) I would be returning to the UK to hopefully sell my house. This would then put me in the UK with my PR cards in Canada.

They said that they did not recommend I get my cards sent to the UK, in case they got lost. I would need to get a Permit to Travel (Travel Document) from the Canadian High Commission in London to allow me to return to Canada (as a returning resident). If I had my PR cards I would not need to do this.

I’ve looked at the CIC website and it isn’t simply a matter of getting a form and filling it in before you return to Canada.
You have to get the forms, pay a fee then apply for a Permit to Travel. I’m not quite sure how long this might take to do.
The fee is $50 per person (I think it’s per person anyway). Given that there is myself, my wife and our 2 young children, I’m not sure if I would need 2 permits or 4.

You have to include in your application, evidence of Permanent Resident status or landing in Canada.
They appear to ask for one of 3 items to prove this :
Returning Resident Permit.
Record of Landing.
Permanent Resident Card.

I don’t have any of these. I wasn’t given a Record of Landing (IMM 1000). Only our Confirmation of Permanent Residence (IMM 5292) was returned to us. That isn’t one of the three items they have asked for so I’m not sure whether that document would be acceptable.
Surely if I had a Permanent Resident card I wouldn’t require a Travel Document ?
So, clearly there is a concern there.

Oddly enough, under the overview for applying for a Travel Document (Permanent Resident Abroad) it tells you who should apply for a Travel Document and who should not apply.
Those who should apply are Permanent Residents of Canada who do not have an original Record of Landing, a valid Returning Resident Permit or a Permanent Resident Card. The very items they ask you to provide with your application !
You should not apply for a Travel Document if you are a holder of a Permanent Resident Card.
Hopefully, soon, I will be the holder of a Permanent Resident Card. It will just be in the wrong Country to me !
It’s very confusing but it gets worse.
Applications must be accompanied by evidence that Canadian permanent residence status has been maintained.
Upon receiving a fully completed application a visa Officer will perform a determination of permanent residency status to see if the applicant has complied with the obligations for maintaining permanent resident status in Canada.
In order to comply with the residency obligations a permanent resident must accumulate 2 years of physical presence in Canada in every 5-year period (as I suspected). However, the 5-year period considered for a residency determination application is the 5 years immediately preceding the date of the application for the Travel Document !
This concerns me a bit because how can I have been ? I only ‘landed’ on May 2nd.


I think my best option (possibly my only option) is to get my PR cards sent to me in the UK (by fedex or someone like that). I faxed my form to Immigration on May 9th so 30 days from then will be June 8. I just hope they arrive at my friends house with no problems.

All this has left me a bit uncertain about where I stand regarding getting back to Canada once we have eventually sold our house.

By the way, what am I (and my family) now ?
Are we British Citizens who are permanent residents of Canada ?
Are we British Citizens who have achieved PR status for Canada ?
Or something else ?
Will we always be British Citizens regardless of where we live, as long as we keep our British Passports valid ?
Let me make it simple -
1. You are Brit Citizens and PRs of Canada. PR card is only the PROOF of that PR needed to travel outside of Canada. If hypothetically you never wanted to travel one can argue that you can live without a PR Card as well in Canada. (you may still need it for other smaller matters like to get a SIN etc but most take COPR document you received.)

2. You say you landed May 2, was that the one 4 weeks back ? You can also update the address online in 180 days from landing and give them a Canadian address and your cards will be mailed.
https://services3.cic.gc.ca/ecas/?app=coanotify&lang=en

3. Another simple option is that you can fly into Canada anytime on your British Passports - as its visa free for Canada and when you land it may take a couple of minutes longer for them to look up in the computers they you are PRs, plus I assume you will have COPR copies with you. No problems here.

4. The only document you get now is COPR and PR Card, all other documents that you are mentioning are what used to be the system so if someone if from the old times - they will produce what tehy got then for eg IMM 1000.

So now kick back and enjoy your beer as you are as PR as they get !!
Bon Voyage !
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Old May 28th 2008, 12:52 pm
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Default Re: Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

Originally Posted by jenny28
They said that they did not recommend I get my cards sent to the UK, in case they got lost. I would need to get a Permit to Travel (Travel Document) from the Canadian High Commission in London to allow me to return to Canada (as a returning resident). If I had my PR cards I would not need to do this.
Take a deep breath.

CIC won't recommend you have the cards mailed back to the UK, because they don't want the blame if the cards get lost.

Don't worry too much about it, though. Mail and courier services aren't *that* unreliable, and the consequences if the cards do get lost aren't exactly dire. It's probably best to use something that's tracked and insured rather than regular mail, though, especially if you're concerned in the first place.

In order to comply with the residency obligations a permanent resident must accumulate 2 years of physical presence in Canada in every 5-year period (as I suspected). However, the 5-year period considered for a residency determination application is the 5 years immediately preceding the date of the application for the Travel Document !
This concerns me a bit because how can I have been ? I only ‘landed’ on May 2nd.
The guide is a little confusing there; I think they're assuming anyone applying for a travel document has been a permanent resident for at least five years. Time before you became a PR doesn't count against you. If you've been a PR less than three years, your landing date is all the evidence you need.
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Old May 29th 2008, 1:13 am
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Default Re: Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

These are the type of responces that I was secretly hoping for.
I was beginning to think that what I first saw as a hurdle was becoming a mountain

If the cards turn up at my friends house as they are supposed to (I don't even want to think about what to do if they don't) then I am happy to get them sent over by a secure method.

I did think that we could fly into Canada simply on our British Passports (I was pretty sure anyway but it's nice to hear it from someone else too) so I guess I could do that, but if I can get our PR cards then I will. That option might be my option if (God forbid) our cards don't arrive.

It was May 2nd of this year that we landed.

Will the authorities know that we are no longer on Canadian soil ?
Or do they not really care anyway ?
Does Canada know where it's residents are at any one time ?
I'm assuming that I have been on Canadian soil for 10 days now, following landing.
I'm assuming that the 5 years started from May 2nd 2008 and so we have until May 2nd 2013 to get in another 720 days ? Or we have 3 years to get back in order to get in enough days to complete the 2 years in 5.
To do that they must know that we are not there at the moment.
Will they think that we are visiting the UK at the moment ?

Sorry to ask what are probably daft questions. I expected more peace of mind after we returned from 'landing', not niggling questions.
I want to sell the house, quit our jobs and start this journey without of Immigration saying we didn't do something when we get there.
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Old May 29th 2008, 1:55 am
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Default Re: Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

The OH landed and left after 48hrs. He's a real honest john and told the immigration people this when they were processing his landing at YYZ. They couldn't have cared less and told him it was nothing to do with them where he went or what he did. The onus is on you to prove you're complying, afaik CIC don't have exit controls, nobody knows or cares you're gone.

Don't panic - lots of people land and leave, lots of people get their PR cards forwarded, and lots of PRs with visa-waiver passports enter Canada without their PR cards. You could always get the fifty dollar travel document if you're concerned - look up posts by Morwenna on this, she got one.
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Old May 29th 2008, 2:45 am
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Thumbs up Re: Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

Hi Jenny28,

I am by no means an expert, but I was under the impression your 5 year time frame started from the date of the visa issue,using the medicals date.

We are going to follow a similar pattern to you, "land" in September and return 12 months later after the lad has finished his exams and we have sold the house.

Good look to you, us and all the fellow house sellers, great timing with the property market eh? :curse:

Cheers,

Dave and Jo.
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Old May 29th 2008, 3:17 am
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Default Re: Our Landing Experience & hurdles to get over (Ontario)

Originally Posted by jenny28
I'm assuming that the 5 years started from May 2nd 2008 and so we have until May 2nd 2013 to get in another 720 days ? Or we have 3 years to get back in order to get in enough days to complete the 2 years in 5.
To do that they must know that we are not there at the moment.
Will they think that we are visiting the UK at the moment ?
You need to spend two years out of every five in Canada. So in any five years, you can be out of the country for *up to* three. It's entirely your choice whether that's one long absence or several shorter ones.

If you do leave it the full three years, though, you'd then need two years in Canada without so much as a foreign vacation to keep your status.

Better, plan to move within a couple of years; that will keep you from getting too close to the limit, and give you some flexibility if you want to travel once you're here.

How do they know? It's right there on the customs form. As a resident of Canada, you have to provide the date you left when you come back.

Originally Posted by Dave and Jo
I am by no means an expert, but I was under the impression your 5 year time frame started from the date of the visa issue,using the medicals date.
No; the residency obligation starts when you land. You're not a permanent resident until you do.

Last edited by cornmatthew; May 29th 2008 at 4:40 am.
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