Robin (The Gadget family)

I have searched through the forum for relevant information and found that it all seems to relate to adults who had convictions as juveniles a number of years ago.

Two of the questions on the Schedule 1 - Background information ask:

Have you, or, if you are the principal applicant, any of your family members listed in your application for permanent Residence in Canada ever:

Been convicted of, or are you currently charged with, or on trial for, or party to a crime or offence, or subject of any proceedings in any country?

And further down:

been detained or put in jail?

My son is 16, ( and has ADHD and other problems), and unfortunately has a conviction this year for 1) criminal damage to a bus door, 2) possession of a very small amount of cannabis, and 3) possession of a knife, though all of these were part of the same arrest. Obviously he has been arrested, detained, charged, and convicted but he is a juvenile.

For this he is under a 9 month referral order with a Youth Offending Team which expires in November. I have been told that once the order is complete then the conviction is expunged and therefore will not even show up on a juvenile record. Anyway we are only requested to obtain police certificates for those of 18 or older.

How do you think the powers-that-be will consider the above three offences even though they have been committed whilst my son is a juvenile......Obviously I'm going to have to tick 'yes' and provide details in the box below.

Oh,.......and to top it all he was arrested again on Monday and is currently on bail for Attempted burglary and going equipped!.........Can this get any worse for us????

I won't go into the whys and wherefores but I am beginning to wonder whether CIC will have an acceptable limit on juvenile behaviour and convictions, whether they will consider that they don't want to accept a juvenile that is already coming to police attention in such a way......or whether they'll consider that teens, and especially boys, can easily get themselves into trouble without thinking things through, and that this is the reason why they only ask for police certificates for those over 18.

So has anyone out there immigrated with a son in similar circumstances? Are we the only ones? Or is it just that no-one else would be prepared to talk about it on a forum!

ann m

My brother was doing all of the above when I started work Robin, so I feel your pain. (You know what I'm talking about!!)

Can't answer your question, but just wanted to say hi, and good luck with it all.

It's illegal to throttle kids, isn't it? (Contrary to the Throttling Kids Act 1892?)

sheadboy

good luck to you, but sorry I have no sympathy for your son if he is denied entry.

but it sounds like he's VERY lucky...according to the Canada Immigration Forms: 5312E - Rehabilitation For Persons Who Are Inadmissible to Canada Because of Past Criminal Activity

"Were you convicted as a juvenile?
In Canada, a young offender is someone who is 12 years of age or older but less than 18 years of age.

You are not inadmissible if:
•you were convicted in Canada under the
Young Offenders Act or the Youth Criminal Justice Act, unless you received an adult sentence,
•you were treated as a young offender in a country which
has special provisions for young offenders, or
•you were convicted in a country which does not have special provisions for young offenders but the circumstances of your conviction are such that you would not have received an adult sentence in Canada.

You are inadmissible if:
•you were convicted in adult court in a country that has special provisions for young offenders.
•you were convicted in a country which does not have special provisions for young offenders but the circumstances of your conviction are such that you would have been treated as an adult in Canada"

JamesM

Going by the useful information that Sheadboy has provided.

I would complete the form appropriately and then when you do your cover letter stating why you believe you will be successful in Canada I would mention your son's convictions and state that does not make your case inadmissable.

Don't do it arrogantly but explain that it will be expunged and that you do not feel that it will ditract from your being able to settle and be successful in Canada.

Robin (The Gadget family)

Thanks Ann, I appreciate your empathy, hopefully nothing will come of this latest arrest....my son is pleading innocence and mistaken identity but we'll only find out next week.

Teenage lads just hanging around together out on the streets are often treated with suspicion, heaven forbid they should wear a hoodie and expect to be treated with respect, and sometimes it's hard for them to feel a part of a community that always looks for the bad in them.....

I was obviously not with my son and his mates at the time, (between 4-5pm), and am not in a position to say what happened in this case.... It's not fair for anyone to assume guilt or innocence yet......so all I can to is hope that no further action will be taken........

Robin (The Gadget family)

Thanks for the info sheadboy......and I understand your lack of sympathy for him.......

sheadboy

no problem, good luck Robin.

Robin (The Gadget family)

James M, thank you for your comments too.

I think that your idea of a cover letter for this specific purpose is the way to go.

Teenagers can make bad decisions, (especially teenagers with ADHD who are wired differently), and although fortunately this is recognised by CIC....they can always reject a case because the individual IO doesn't want a budding offender cluttering up the Canadian Justice system and justify it somehow.

I've brought this topic out because as I said, I can't find any threads about families in our position.

dingbat

I can talk about it generally. I have dealt with similar at work, involving a family with similar issues, and a child about a year younger than yours. I have highlighted above what CIC deemed was too much youth criminal activity for this family's application. There was also another charge on the one I had (laid here). Details might identify the family, so just please take my word for it! I only got involved because the child continued with similar behaviours whilst here on a recce with family, and came to RCMP attention, and therefore became involved with us. Their application to immigrate was eventually refused, on the grounds that another offence occurred in the UK (assault after shoplifting) when the youth was still on YOT supervision, plus the charge here. CIC were notified about the second UK arrest, and the BC charges. The rejection letter came within two weeks. The family are devastated, but that is that.

I don't wish to be impertinent, and feel free to ignore me, but I would be very uneasy about bringing a sixteen year old youth with issues into Canada. He has a better chance of levelling out and getting a job in a familar environment. His very easy access to hard drugs and criminally involved youth and young adults here would be my concern.

Robin (The Gadget family)

I wouldn't ignore you Dingbat - I wouldn't have posted this thread if I wasn't prepared for the responses.

I appreciate your input and experience.

If we do get refused then I will work on a plan 'B', it won't be the end of the world even though this has been my main focus outside of family life....apart from studying french and Ceroc.....Life is too short for regrets, after all, we can still visit my brothers and families for extended periods......

bewillow

Does your son realize that his ongoing actions have implications for his later life and may mean he can not go to Canada? Does he want to go to Canada?

Robin (The Gadget family)

A long answer coming up but I needed to write this....

Yes, he does actually realise that his ongoing actions may have implications on his later life but the way that his condition affects him is that he acts impulsively and doesn't think of the consequences and hasn't been able to stop making on-the-spot bad decisions.

We have known for years that something has been wrong but none of the schools have recognised or suggested causes or solutions until I did some research and we finally had a diagnosis in early February, (two in fact, one private and one NHS - FACT, both supporting the other). This being ADHD, ODD as a consequence, and borderline Asbergers.

He has been on medication since then which has meant that in his final year he has actually been able to focus sufficiently to do some school work without being disruptive or being kicked out of school for 'bad behaviour'. He has also been able to sit some GCSE's, though independent study has been out of the question.

The medication has calmed him down and should give him a window of opportunity to focus, though if he has done what he has just been arrested for then it hasn't stopped the impulsive behaviour that results in bad decisions.

After our visit to his ADHD psychiatrist the other day that we, as parents both attended this time, because of his arrest, he actually let out that he is very unhappy that he has let everyone down, ashamed and depressed too, and was holding back the tears, but at the moment he can't detach himself from the condition that he has to live with. He is still trying to grasp that he can change the way that he reacts to situations, he has to learn how to manage the condition in a positive way and his emotional immaturity gets in the way of this.

As parents we are continuously learning how to cope with his more than average challenging behaviour as he gets older, because often, our normal parenting skills, (we attended parenting classes when he was 6 because we struggled with his behaviour), don't work. The psychiatrist has been very helpful in guiding us towards a more co-operative/positive and less confrontational/argumentative relationship with our son but we are still often floundering as we were earlier this week.

I am not excusing his behaviour at all. We wouldn't even attend the station as 'appropriate adults' when he was arrested because we were so disappointed that he was there at all and wanted him to realise what staying in a station overnight with no parental support was like....

When we first considered immigrating to Canada in Sept 2006, the fact that our son was failing in the system here was part of the reason, we wanted to show him a different way of living and reacting to (school) life. Then, with more consideration we chose to wait because of other factors.

Our son has had mixed feelings about going to Canada, he just wants a dog, and a cabin on the land that we plan on buying and doesn't talk further about going to Canada than that. He also talks about only knowing a life here where all his friends are and he doesn't like change so gets anxious about the idea too. Either way we thought that he would be 18 by the time we went and he would be mature enough to be able to decide for himself. Maybe that won't be the case, maybe he will be more dependent on us for longer that we had realised, it's looking that way.

I am forcing myself to think now that maybe Canada will not be a possibility for us, especially after what Dingbat has said......but I still live in hope that we will have the choice too.......Oh boy, life can be tough!

Tanah

Hi there - ok I dont know how much help this will b e BUT

I worked for the Youth Offending Team for 4 years - referal Orders are the order given for a first offence - its kind of like a warning in that it doesnt stay on your record for any length of time. In other words as soon as his order is completed its classed as a " spent" conviction. If he gets any further convictions these will stay on his record - its like a " last chance and your out" deal. he would not have to declare anything on his referal order when applying for jobs etc HOWEVER
There are expections to the rule - ie/ anyone applying for jobs in health / children etc and in this case im presuming Visa / immigration. I would imagine that as its a referal order and not DTO or Supervision order etc, it may be looked at slightly differently - as you know RO's are panel lead and not court lead unless theres a problem. he wont be able to go though until the end of his order.

Alot of kids get in trouble just once and alot of kids get into trouble for things most of us did as kids but we were never taken to court for etc etc. Dont listen to the judgemental, there are reasons for everything and no family / person is perfect. I would hate to have been a 16 year old today I think theres wayyy to much pressure in the UK in alot of areas.
I hope your son gets some good help from the YOT and hopefully the shock will be enough to make him realise that there are bigger consequences to carrying knives than " being one of the lads"
Good luck with your application Ihope all goes well for you and your son. Hopefully the move here will help settle him down too - ADHD can be a nightmare to live with

Tanah x

Robin (The Gadget family)

Thank you Tanah, I will make sure that I explain/prove the conviction in detail in the cover letter for our application/docs request and provide proof of the referral order too. I'm sure the YOT manager would be prepared to assist with a letter. I doubt a CIC assessing immigration officer will know or understand the idiosyncracies of the British juvenile justice system so I will have to be thorough.......

purple80

Nothing to add Robin other than some {{{hugs}}}.

Charlie