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My Comments About the 80 Point System

My Comments About the 80 Point System

Old Jan 30th 2002, 1:43 am
  #1  
Lampa4
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Being a sucesseful independent Canadian immigrant myself, I was shocked to see the
new selection rules. It is difficult to rationalize what Canada will achive with
these new standards. Here are some of the most popular explainations offered:

1. The new standards are implimented to reduce the current backlog.

This theory is intresting. Since every application requires a fee to cover the
processing costs, the most logical step would be to hire more people to process the
backlog. Unless of course, part of the fee are being used for other purposes. In any
case, a simple fee hike would have less impact than changing the rules.

2. The new standards raise the quality of immigrants.

This approach is highly questionable. A person with no previous Canadian connection
or a job offer, but has a PHD degree and 4+ years of experience would still have a
hard time qualifying. Is there something wrong with this picture? Let's face it, most
immigrants with the aformentioned qualifications would be very productive in Canada,
and will likely immigrate somewhere else if Canada will not accept them. Does Canada
really gain something by not accepting them? I don't think so. In addition, the new
rules' heavy emphasis on education degrees is misguided. This is evident from many
sucessful Canadians that do not have a college degree.

3. Canada needs tough immigration standards to screen out potential terriorsts.

The new rules may screen out terriorts, but it will not screen out well educated
terriorsts. Now that is a terrifying thought.

Don't get me wrong, I sure hope Canadian immigration knows what they are doing and it
will result in better Canada. But from my point of view, this is going to hurt Canada
more than helping.

Lampa4

*please excuse my spelling/grammer mistakes*
 
Old Jan 30th 2002, 5:49 am
  #2  
Jillguo
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This is really a good piece of saying.

With regarding to the new regulation, think about, it seems that, under new propose,
Einstein might find hard to immigrate into Canada.

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Old Jan 30th 2002, 12:07 pm
  #3  
James Metcalfe
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Point well taken.

Jim Metcalfe


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Old Jan 30th 2002, 3:12 pm
  #4  
Leonardo Hyppolito
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Sure, he would fail and would decide to go to Australia instead. Like me, if the
rules don't change.

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Old Jan 30th 2002, 4:10 pm
  #5  
Luterin
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Useless, unless Corporate Canada changes its hiring practices.

-Lute.
 
Old Jan 30th 2002, 7:48 pm
  #6  
Henrik
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[email protected] (Jillguo)
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Then he would go to the States like a lot of h1b holders in the NG, the only
difference is that he would not bad-mouth Canada and bitch so much for he is much an
intellectual.

People who were qualified now not under the new rules have lots of resentment which
is even justifiably understandable. However the new policy also opens up a great new
spectrum for other occupations that Canada needs as eqaully as IT people. Under old
rules as long as you have some kind of computer tag under your belt, then you are
almost automatically in and how fair was that??? Now you don't hear people talk about
that often in this NG, eh? Canada may need IT people, but we also need more nurses
and teachers for examples whom were totally denied the chance coming to Canada before
the new rules.

Besides, most of the IT people in this NG already have the H1b status in the States,
they are just not happy because they no longer can use Canada as a stepping stone as
easy as before. Even thought I hope the government will refund the money to
applicants who applied under old rules, something tells me that it will still leave
room for critism. And I would ask these people to be honest and ask themselves:
Really, when you applied under the old rules, did you apply to use Canada as a
stepping stone or you genuinely applied to immigrate? Because it is always easier to
critize the government and sometimes rightly so, but sometimes you know you did it
to youselve.

What if by 1 of 1 billionth chance that the government would to say that all
applicants applied before new rules would be all accepted as long as they qualify
under the old rules,(You would like that idea, wouldn't you? Fat chance!) we would
still see people come back to this NG ask stupid questions over and over again such
as 183 days rules or 730 days rules because their heart is simply not in Canada and
they simply just use Canada so they can go back to the US. Hey, I don't see these
people critize and complaint much to the US immigration NG which is so strange
because it is the US gives you h1b and lets you go after years of hard work and
paying US taxes, not Canada. Why don't you ask US to change their immigration policy
with such zeal as you do in this NG??
 
Old Jan 31st 2002, 1:25 am
  #7  
Bk
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[usenetquote2]> > propose, Einstein might find hard to immigrate into Canada.[/usenetquote2]

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How are you so sure about that?

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Actually CIC needed to update their occupation list to adjust to their needs. True,
we don't need that many IT people anymore. But we don't need any "this or that"
graduates as well. That was the whole point of having the GOL list where Canada could
bring in people in high demand. But the problem was they never bothered to update the
list and were using almost obsolete list.

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I guess people don't ask because they realize that that's not gonna happen. Due to
their economic condition US can attract people without offering immigration visa (and
of course they are already saturated with immigrants and don't need that many
anymore). Nobody here is asking to change Canada's immigration policy either. Most of
them are bitching about is that they way the new system it is being implemented here.
Some of them have quite strong points as well. Personally I don't see the new rule is
going help Canada to get a brighter future too.
 
Old Jan 31st 2002, 2:30 am
  #8  
George
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Everyone wants to improve the quality of life and that is the main reason people
emmigrate to Canada. It was true in my case and it is most probably true in our case
too. People born and raised in a different culture feel better in their native
environment and the reason they emmigrate ( and not seek refugee status or political
asylum) to another country is mostly economical.

I personally do not see any harm in trying to earn more money in US for the same work
you do in Canada. What you are advocating here is contrary to the human nature - to
refuse to aspire to what is better for you. I know that many Canadians try to find
jobs in US and it is funny to think that recent immigrant would consider them less
Canadians than himself for this very reason.

I also do not think that people asking questions about 183 or 730 day rules are
asking stupid questions. I highly doubt that these questions are asked by the same
people and the fact that these questions are repeated simply means there is a
constant influx of new users in this NG who are confused by the regulation and need
clarification that many experts kindly provide.

I personally consider this NG more of an invaluable source of information and less of
an arena for political and moral discussions and I would hate to think that my
questions are labelled stupid by some fellow recent immigrant who has a sudden fit of
newly found Canadian pride.

I believe most of the negative comments here are not against the immigration policy
of Canada but rather about the unexpected sudden change and retroactive nature of new
regulations. If such a sudden change happened in US immigration regulations you would
undoubtedly see no less angry, confused and resentful posts in respective NG.

George

[email protected] (Henrik)
[usenetquote2]> > This is really a good piece of saying.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > With regarding to the new regulation, think about, it seems that, under new[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > propose, Einstein might find hard to immigrate into Canada.[/usenetquote2]
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Old Jan 31st 2002, 2:53 pm
  #9  
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 148
jaihanumanjee is an unknown quantity at this point
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Mr Henrik has already raised this point under his former nick of (ZULU) and yet he asks the same questions again and again coming under different nicks.Do all his nicks suffer from amnesia as well?
================================================== ================================================== =================
From: L.B. ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Curious as to why so many Indian USA are going to Canada
Newsgroups: misc.immigration.canada
View: Complete Thread (8 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-05-29 18:15:35 PST


The most important reason has been described in the New York Times
article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/29/te...gy/29VISA.html

Article explains hopeless situation of H1B holders in general,
regardless of their ethnicity.

But article doesn't say why the majority of those H1 visa holders who
apply for Canadian PR are Indians and other citizens of Commonwealth
countries from Indian subcontinent.

There are few reasons why they are applying for Canadian PR and you
may draw your own conclusions from reading thousands of posts in this
group, but I see the following pattern (and I know that it will draw a
lot of angry replies from Canadian immigration system abusers):

Majority of them honestly apply for Canadian PR and really want to
live in Canada, although there is a large number among them who are
using Canada as a stepping stone to US or just a security in the case
they will not get US Green Cards. Their intention is to enter US again
(citizens of Commonwealth countries who are Canadian PR don't need
visa to enter US) and live there.

Others do it to be able to sponsor their parents - they cannot sponsor
parents to US without becoming US PR first, so they apply for Canadian
PR and soon after formally becoming Canadian PR they sponsor their
parents. In reality they continue living and working in the US, their
parents after landing in Canada are crossing border (no visa required)
to live with them in US and visit Canada only when free medical
service is needed as they in most cases have no chance for medical
insurance in US. Pure and simple abuse of Canadian system and Canadian
taxpayers.

I don't really blame them for doing what they do - they try to have
the cake and eat it too, and as long as Canadian immigration system is
open for abuse it will be abused. But lately more and more abusers are
being caught and many of them are losing both, Canadian PR and
whatever status they have in US...
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jaihanumanjee is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2002, 2:54 pm
  #10  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 148
jaihanumanjee is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Henrik Repeats AGAIN!!!!

Mr Henrik has already raised this point under his former nick of (ZULU) and yet he asks the same questions again and again coming under different nicks.Do all his nicks suffer from amnesia as well?
================================================== ================================================== =================
From: L.B. ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Curious as to why so many Indian USA are going to Canada
Newsgroups: misc.immigration.canada
View: Complete Thread (8 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-05-29 18:15:35 PST


The most important reason has been described in the New York Times
article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/29/te...gy/29VISA.html

Article explains hopeless situation of H1B holders in general,
regardless of their ethnicity.

But article doesn't say why the majority of those H1 visa holders who
apply for Canadian PR are Indians and other citizens of Commonwealth
countries from Indian subcontinent.

There are few reasons why they are applying for Canadian PR and you
may draw your own conclusions from reading thousands of posts in this
group, but I see the following pattern (and I know that it will draw a
lot of angry replies from Canadian immigration system abusers):

Majority of them honestly apply for Canadian PR and really want to
live in Canada, although there is a large number among them who are
using Canada as a stepping stone to US or just a security in the case
they will not get US Green Cards. Their intention is to enter US again
(citizens of Commonwealth countries who are Canadian PR don't need
visa to enter US) and live there.

Others do it to be able to sponsor their parents - they cannot sponsor
parents to US without becoming US PR first, so they apply for Canadian
PR and soon after formally becoming Canadian PR they sponsor their
parents. In reality they continue living and working in the US, their
parents after landing in Canada are crossing border (no visa required)
to live with them in US and visit Canada only when free medical
service is needed as they in most cases have no chance for medical
insurance in US. Pure and simple abuse of Canadian system and Canadian
taxpayers.

I don't really blame them for doing what they do - they try to have
the cake and eat it too, and as long as Canadian immigration system is
open for abuse it will be abused. But lately more and more abusers are
being caught and many of them are losing both, Canadian PR and
whatever status they have in US...
================================================== ================================================== ==================
jaihanumanjee is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2002, 3:10 pm
  #11  
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 148
jaihanumanjee is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Henrik checking people's I.P

From: Henrik ([email protected])
Subject: Re: I want to go to Canada. Help me, please!
Newsgroups: misc.immigration.canada
View this article only
Date: 2002-01-09 12:59:13 PST

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Henrik wags his tail to his Master >>>>
For someone who is not even living in Canada right now, you sure know
how to push your own agenda.

P.S. Mr. Andrew Miller, you should be proud of me, I checked his IP
address this time.)
jaihanumanjee is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2002, 5:46 pm
  #12  
Canim
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Dear "jaihanumanjee" ,

Sen hakikaten salagin tekisin. Ne demek istedigin kesinlikle anlasilmiyor. Ama ne
yapalim seni engellemek mumkun degil.

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Old Jan 31st 2002, 6:28 pm
  #13  
Henrik
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[email protected] (Jillguo)
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I agree but think about this, under the old rules the applicant was almost guaranteed
in as long as that individual had some kind of computer background. And I wouldn't
think just because an individual had some comupter experience that he/she would be
successful in Canada (proven in this NG)but yet that was the law. I would agree that
it's brutal about the high new pass mark 80 but didn't Mr. Miller say that it still
depends on the discretion of the immigration officer(s) on a per case base? Besides,
I would guess the new rules may have meant to discourage people using Canada as a
stepping stone to the States when now they would need at least 4 years work
experience to score 25 which is much harder for h1b holders from the US.

Canada can't have a brighter future if we thought we had a certain amount of
immigrants but they vanished soon after their landing. Any non-Americans working in
the States and claims that that is for the betterment of their life finanically,
ususally also have their US immigration status pending. Sure there are Canadians
trying to get a job in the US, but vise visa. Especially after Sept.11, more Canadian
are packing home and more Americans considering to be Canadian PR/Citizen. Do you
know now in the airport more Americans put Canadain flag stickers on their luggage
and claim to be Canadain and only American again until they are "safe"? Hey,
sometimes you just can't have the cake and eat it too. So you either want the
powerful US dollars or you want a quality life in Canada... Stop hopping back and
forth becasuse sooner or later, you'd get yourself screwed right in the middle.
 
Old Feb 1st 2002, 2:35 am
  #14  
Lampa4
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[email protected] (Henrik)
[usenetquote2]> > First of all, I am not a H1b holder, neither IT people. In fact, I do think there[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > is good aspects of the new regulation, but to set the pass mark as 80, without[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > distinguishing different experience, it might reject some potential good[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > applicants, but allow someones who appear to be good, to pass. Do you realize[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > that most of people might score very same points if they have Master/PhD with[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > 4-year work experience (no matter where and at which circumstance)? and yet they[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > could be very different in term of success in Canada. don't you think it might be[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > better if the new regulation can somehow reflect the difference here?[/usenetquote2]
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This "discretion" would most likely be used to deny qualified immigrants instead of
used to accept underqualified immigrants. Even if it is not used to deny qualified
immigrants, this harsh 80 point system would need a lot of "discretion" to make the
system acceptable. Another issue will be raised with "discretion" power, who is it to
say that the "discretion" will be more fair than the point system? There is a lot of
potential for personal abuse here (e.g. bribe, discrimination, and etc.)

An earlier post also pointed out that the point system should have been
evolutionalized rather than revolutionalized. The computer skill problem you've
described could have been effectively mitigated by strengthen the occupation part of
the qualifying procedure. In other words, don't throw out the whole system just
because only parts of it needs fixing.

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Huh? What is wrong with people looking out for their own best interest? So if they
are not using Canada as a stepping stone, they will not be contributing to Canada
either, however short they stay here. In other words, they will find other stepping
stone in which Canada will not benefit one bit. I would not be surprised that a
significant portion of people who originally wanted to use Canada as a "stepping
stone" ended up staying because they loved this country too much to leave. If you are
right and they are trying to target these people by changing the point system; the
likely result if they are sucesseful will provide no additional benefit and possible
great harm for Canada since the new system will squander valuable human resources.

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You seem to dislike the idea of people having close ties in Canada and US (or other
country). I personally don't see anything wrong with having close ties in Canada and
US since the ties ultimately spreads Canadian cultures to other countries too. Canada
is a globlized country and we cannot stuck our head in the sand. If you are refering
to people who are PR of Canada but never lived here, I don't see anything wrong with
that either since they are not using any of Canada's resources. As matter of fact,
they are likely contributing to Canada since they'll have to pay taxes on their
global income.

Sure, there are lots of items need to be fixed in the older system. But at least the
older system is still way better for Canada than the new system.

We should be fighting for a fair immigration standard, not fighting to disqualify
more people.
 
Old Feb 1st 2002, 8:49 pm
  #15  
Henrik
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I agree, but if their heart is not for Canada, I rather for them to pick a different
country in the first place. Let people who really want come to Canada come and be
happy for their decison. Not for people who only come to Canada because their US
status run out and thus using Canada to buy time to get back to the US.

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You are joking, right? What the hell is Candadian culture? Seriously I would like to
know the very core of Canadian identity especially in North America today. Besides,
using Canada as a stepping stone to the US is very different than someone who has
close ties to both countries. Canada is part of NAFTA, we are bound to have close
ties with the US and I am fine with that. Thank you.

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sand. If you
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don't see
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That is the exact problem, if people don't live in Canada and don't use any Canadain
resources why even bother to be a Canadian PR in the first place??? Let along the
Canadain culture you were talking about, DUH!!! You see, I don't necessarily agree
with the new cruel pass mark system but I do have an issue with people using Canada
as a stepping stone to the US. Period. I think all the h1b holders should march to
Washington and demand to be counted as a productive member of US society (working
there, living there and paying taxes)so that they wouldn't have to use Canada as a
back-up plan and become so bitter and critical of Canada when things don't work out
for them in the US.
 

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