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mr miller please advise we have been refused

mr miller please advise we have been refused

Old Aug 25th 2004, 4:12 am
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Default mr miller please advise we have been refused

Mr Miller,

I have been paitently been waiting for a decison since feb 2003 and today we got a letter refusing my application for skilled worker PR. The explaination said that the evidence we provided for proof of relationship was insufficent.
and that she felt that we would not be able to become economically estabished in canada.

History;

Both my self and partner in max 10 age catorgoy

education: scored 12 out of 16

Language: I was born in uk and english is my first language scored 12? out of 16

experience : 21 out of 21

arranged employment: 00

adaptability: 04 ?

my wife has 15 year education full time
has a job offer from her current employer as a sales rep who has offices in Vancouver.

my dad's sister lives in canada and has done for 30 +years

surley I should have go more points.

can you advise me on how to appeal.

Many thanks

Need to know ---now---will not give up
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Old Aug 25th 2004, 4:37 am
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Originally Posted by need to know
Mr Miller,

I have been paitently been waiting for a decison since feb 2003 and today we got a letter refusing my application for skilled worker PR. The explaination said that the evidence we provided for proof of relationship was insufficent.
and that she felt that we would not be able to become economically estabished in canada.

History;

Both my self and partner in max 10 age catorgoy

education: scored 12 out of 16

Language: I was born in uk and english is my first language scored 12? out of 16

experience : 21 out of 21

arranged employment: 00

adaptability: 04 ?

my wife has 15 year education full time
has a job offer from her current employer as a sales rep who has offices in Vancouver.

my dad's sister lives in canada and has done for 30 +years

surley I should have go more points.

can you advise me on how to appeal.

Many thanks

Need to know ---now---will not give up
sorry to hear this! ...and wonder if you ever received your innitial assessment letter
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Old Aug 25th 2004, 5:08 am
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Hi
Originally Posted by need to know
Mr Miller,

I have been paitently been waiting for a decison since feb 2003 and today we got a letter refusing my application for skilled worker PR. The explaination said that the evidence we provided for proof of relationship was insufficent.
and that she felt that we would not be able to become economically estabished in canada.

History;

Both my self and partner in max 10 age catorgoy

education: scored 12 out of 16

Language: I was born in uk and english is my first language scored 12? out of 16

experience : 21 out of 21

arranged employment: 00

adaptability: 04 ?

my wife has 15 year education full time
has a job offer from her current employer as a sales rep who has offices in Vancouver.

my dad's sister lives in canada and has done for 30 +years

surley I should have go more points.

can you advise me on how to appeal.

Many thanks

Need to know ---now---will not give up
You have 15 days (Its either 15 or 30) from the date of the refusal to appeal to the federal court of Canada that CIC made an error in law on your application. You will probably require a well experienced Canadian Immigration lawyer (although you can be self represented, but I wouldn't reccommend it). It is going to be expensive.

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Old Aug 25th 2004, 5:23 am
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Originally Posted by PMM
Hi


You have 15 days (Its either 15 or 30) from the date of the refusal to appeal to the federal court of Canada that CIC made an error in law on your application. You will probably require a well experienced Canadian Immigration lawyer (although you can be self represented, but I wouldn't reccommend it). It is going to be expensive.

PMM
Sorry you have 30 days for leave to appeal. See:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/manuals-guides/...h/op/op22e.pdf

PMM
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Old Aug 25th 2004, 10:00 am
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

The only question is - was the decision made in error in law? If not then Judicial Review (not an appeal as such process doesn't exist for PR applicants) will be a waste ot time, money (a lot of it!!!) and hopes.

Unfortunately it is not enough time to make informed decision within alloted time as just obtaining CAIPS file will take longer - thus one needs to decide rather blindly. Often new application is a better option. Also if there is a clear mistake made by officer then visa post has the power to fix it internally.

You didn't tell us what were the details of reasons for refusal - it is extremely important part as some reasons (like substitute evaluation) are almost impossible to challenge. You may challenge error in the number of points awarded (if such error was made) - so, let's deal with points you mentioned:

1. Education (no dispute here) - 12
2. Age (no dispute) - 10
3. Language 12 out of 16 - you argue that you were born in UK, but were you raised and educated in English language environment? Have you gained your work experience in English language environmet and use English as primary language in your daily life? If yes and you provided proper submission letter and evidence then you may try to complain. But if you were only born in UK but raised and educated in other language and don't use English as your primary language in daily life then officer's assessment is final, regardless how you feel - in such circumstances the only guarantee for 16 points is the IELTS test with score of 7.0 or better in all 4 skills.

4. Experience (no dispute) - 21 points

5. Arrabged employment (no dispute) - 0 points (fact that your spouse has job offer doesn't give you any points)

6. Adaptability - properly given 4 points for your spouse's education but not awarded points for relative in Canada. Fact that you claim having aunt in Canada alone, without sufficient proof won't give you points. If you submitted (1) proof of her Canadian citizenship or PR status, plus (2) conclusive evidence that she resides permanently in Canada (utility bills, tax returns, bank statements, etc.), plus (3) set of birth certificates showing that she and your dad have at least 1 common parent then you should have been awarded 5 points. But if you didn't submit all 3 of the above or any wasn't conclusive enough (as officer stated) then you haven't been awarded points here, quite correctly.

So - if points are beyond dispute and were stated as above in the refusal letter (59 points per my calculation) then you have no case for Judicial Review. If you have provided all required and conclusive evidence to be awarded 16 points for English then you may dispute it, but it will only give you 4 points - still short. If you provided conclusive evidence (all 3 as listed above) of having aunt in Canada then you have another dispute here and possible error, thus additional 5 points. Those 2 factors are really the only ones you dispute and if you provided conclusive evidence and officer made an error then you have the case if refused on lack of points as you would have all together 69 points if both factors were conclusively documented.

If they weren't documented (and you were asked by visa post to submit additional evidence to prove relative in Canada) then you have no chance to be accepted for Judicial Review as officer didn't make an error.

But if refusal decision was based also on substitute evaluation then regardless what you can do with above 2 factors it won't make any difference as using substitute evaluation is by law in the discretion of processing officer.

You need to decide what you want - if you want to take a chance with Juducial Review (providing that you can prove that it was officer who made an error) then you need to hire immediately an experienced in Judicial reviews immigration lawyer and be prepared for about 12 to 24+ months battle and thousands (if not tens of thousands) of dollars in costs.

If you follow my brief analysis and see that it was you who made an error, not the officer or if you don't want to take chances with Judicial Review (or simply don't have the kind of money needed for the lawyer and costs) then you should consider new application done with the assistance of well experienced immigration practitioner (lawyer or consultant in Canada, authorized to represent you).

Unfortunately you don't have time and you must make decision now (if Judicial Review) blindly.




Originally Posted by PMM
Sorry you have 30 days for leave to appeal. See:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/manuals-guides/...h/op/op22e.pdf

PMM
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Old Aug 25th 2004, 6:55 pm
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Mr Miller thank you for your speed response and advise.

we are not giving in that easily.We are not going to appeal via the courts but through the office in london

first of all I am a british. Born and breed in England. Therefore I do not know why we did not get the max 16 points.? we did the english test and scored

Listening - 6

Reading - 7.5

writing - 6

speaking - 9

overall band - 7.5

I was never too good under exam senarios. but surley a overall 7.5 must allow me to get my 16 points and knowing that I have always lived in the UK.

Would a new test help?

In december of 2003 they asked for evidence that my aunt was related and that she still lives in canada. The imigration officer had asked for a birth certificate or marriage certificate. And for tax returns or wage slips. But my aunt had neither BC OR MC as when she left india they never were given such documentation. And a lawyer in Vancouver "siad" that a declaration would be enough as my dad was visiting her at the time. SILLY me for taking his word for it. In your response option of utility bills and bank statements & her canadian PR we can provide. But her passport has not got her parents details on at all. what other options have we got to prove that she is my aunt ?

Reason for refusal is that - "You have not obtained sufficent points to satisfy me that you will be able to become economically established in Canada".

My schooling has been 11 yrs compulsory and 1 year completed after that. also on top of that I have other qualifications which are more industy related such as MCP, A+, which are quailifications completed my self in my own time and should be internationally recognised. (which she did not give me points for).

This all comes as we are about to leave for our holiday in europe for two weeks (great timing) I have sent the immigration office a letter explaining that we are going to appeal and that we are away for two weeks i have my aunt looking searching for evidence to connect my dad and her. Is there anything else I can do?

Any other advise will be greatly appricated.

Need to know ---- Now--Will not give up

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
The only question is - was the decision made in error in law? If not then Judicial Review (not an appeal as such process doesn't exist for PR applicants) will be a waste ot time, money (a lot of it!!!) and hopes.

Unfortunately it is not enough time to make informed decision within alloted time as just obtaining CAIPS file will take longer - thus one needs to decide rather blindly. Often new application is a better option. Also if there is a clear mistake made by officer then visa post has the power to fix it internally.

You didn't tell us what were the details of reasons for refusal - it is extremely important part as some reasons (like substitute evaluation) are almost impossible to challenge. You may challenge error in the number of points awarded (if such error was made) - so, let's deal with points you mentioned:

1. Education (no dispute here) - 12
2. Age (no dispute) - 10
3. Language 12 out of 16 - you argue that you were born in UK, but were you raised and educated in English language environment? Have you gained your work experience in English language environmet and use English as primary language in your daily life? If yes and you provided proper submission letter and evidence then you may try to complain. But if you were only born in UK but raised and educated in other language and don't use English as your primary language in daily life then officer's assessment is final, regardless how you feel - in such circumstances the only guarantee for 16 points is the IELTS test with score of 7.0 or better in all 4 skills.

4. Experience (no dispute) - 21 points

5. Arrabged employment (no dispute) - 0 points (fact that your spouse has job offer doesn't give you any points)

6. Adaptability - properly given 4 points for your spouse's education but not awarded points for relative in Canada. Fact that you claim having aunt in Canada alone, without sufficient proof won't give you points. If you submitted (1) proof of her Canadian citizenship or PR status, plus (2) conclusive evidence that she resides permanently in Canada (utility bills, tax returns, bank statements, etc.), plus (3) set of birth certificates showing that she and your dad have at least 1 common parent then you should have been awarded 5 points. But if you didn't submit all 3 of the above or any wasn't conclusive enough (as officer stated) then you haven't been awarded points here, quite correctly.

So - if points are beyond dispute and were stated as above in the refusal letter (59 points per my calculation) then you have no case for Judicial Review. If you have provided all required and conclusive evidence to be awarded 16 points for English then you may dispute it, but it will only give you 4 points - still short. If you provided conclusive evidence (all 3 as listed above) of having aunt in Canada then you have another dispute here and possible error, thus additional 5 points. Those 2 factors are really the only ones you dispute and if you provided conclusive evidence and officer made an error then you have the case if refused on lack of points as you would have all together 69 points if both factors were conclusively documented.

If they weren't documented (and you were asked by visa post to submit additional evidence to prove relative in Canada) then you have no chance to be accepted for Judicial Review as officer didn't make an error.

But if refusal decision was based also on substitute evaluation then regardless what you can do with above 2 factors it won't make any difference as using substitute evaluation is by law in the discretion of processing officer.

You need to decide what you want - if you want to take a chance with Juducial Review (providing that you can prove that it was officer who made an error) then you need to hire immediately an experienced in Judicial reviews immigration lawyer and be prepared for about 12 to 24+ months battle and thousands (if not tens of thousands) of dollars in costs.

If you follow my brief analysis and see that it was you who made an error, not the officer or if you don't want to take chances with Judicial Review (or simply don't have the kind of money needed for the lawyer and costs) then you should consider new application done with the assistance of well experienced immigration practitioner (lawyer or consultant in Canada, authorized to represent you).

Unfortunately you don't have time and you must make decision now (if Judicial Review) blindly.
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Old Aug 25th 2004, 8:37 pm
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Originally Posted by need to know
Mr Miller thank you for your speed response and advise.

we are not giving in that easily.We are not going to appeal via the courts but through the office in london

first of all I am a british. Born and breed in England. Therefore I do not know why we did not get the max 16 points.? we did the english test and scored

Listening - 6

Reading - 7.5

writing - 6

speaking - 9

overall band - 7.5

I was never too good under exam senarios. but surley a overall 7.5 must allow me to get my 16 points and knowing that I have always lived in the UK.

Would a new test help?
Did you give those results to CHC...because those score equate to 12
below 7 , you get 2 points.
....you have two sixes ...so you lose 4 poinst in all...making it 12.

If you had actually sent those scores, thats where teh problem is.
you would have been better off without the test scores.

Overall 7 doesnt mean anything.

I dont know where you stay...perhaps UK.in that case london is fast you might apply again. however with 12 points in education i dont see how
you can qualify......unless you have the points in arranged employment
...i guess HRDC (though the name has changed recently) would atleast expect a degree.


by the way how did you get 4 points for adaptability....does your spouse have bachelor's
in that case its your spouse/common law partner who should have applied as
primary applicant.
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Old Aug 25th 2004, 8:45 pm
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Originally Posted by need to know
Mr Miller,

History;

Both my self and partner in max 10 age catorgoy

education: scored 12 out of 16
Education 12 out of 16 ?????? The max is 25 in education.
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Old Aug 26th 2004, 3:04 am
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Language - you were awarded 12 points correctly as per your IELTS results. 4 points for each skill with score of 7.5 and 2 points for each skill with score of 6. Your mistake was to submit iELTS in the first place - as UK born and raised you should have submitted substitute evidence only.

Your aunt - you were properly asked and given the chance to prove that your aunt is your aunt. But you took the "easy road" upon irresponsible advice from your "lawyer" and paid the price. It doesn't matter that your aunt never got her birth certificate - she could have obtained it now without any problems through Indian embassy/consulate. So, no conclusive proof = no points for relative in Canada. Sorry, but it is how it works.

Education - you were given 12 points correctly. High school diploma would have been awarded only with 5 points. In my opinion officer was quite generous by giving you 12 points for qualifications you mentioned.

Conclusion - points were awarded properly as per evidence submitted, thus no error in law was made. You were given the chance to submit additional evidence as required and you failed to do so.

You may of course try with London and I really wish you all the luck with it, but reality is that the only thing now what you can prove (if getting proper evidence as I have listed) is your relative in Canada. It will add only 5 points to your score and get you to the total of 64 - still short.



Originally Posted by need to know
Mr Miller thank you for your speed response and advise.

we are not giving in that easily.We are not going to appeal via the courts but through the office in london

first of all I am a british. Born and breed in England. Therefore I do not know why we did not get the max 16 points.? we did the english test and scored

Listening - 6

Reading - 7.5

writing - 6

speaking - 9

overall band - 7.5

I was never too good under exam senarios. but surley a overall 7.5 must allow me to get my 16 points and knowing that I have always lived in the UK.

Would a new test help?

In december of 2003 they asked for evidence that my aunt was related and that she still lives in canada. The imigration officer had asked for a birth certificate or marriage certificate. And for tax returns or wage slips. But my aunt had neither BC OR MC as when she left india they never were given such documentation. And a lawyer in Vancouver "siad" that a declaration would be enough as my dad was visiting her at the time. SILLY me for taking his word for it. In your response option of utility bills and bank statements & her canadian PR we can provide. But her passport has not got her parents details on at all. what other options have we got to prove that she is my aunt ?

Reason for refusal is that - "You have not obtained sufficent points to satisfy me that you will be able to become economically established in Canada".

My schooling has been 11 yrs compulsory and 1 year completed after that. also on top of that I have other qualifications which are more industy related such as MCP, A+, which are quailifications completed my self in my own time and should be internationally recognised. (which she did not give me points for).

This all comes as we are about to leave for our holiday in europe for two weeks (great timing) I have sent the immigration office a letter explaining that we are going to appeal and that we are away for two weeks i have my aunt looking searching for evidence to connect my dad and her. Is there anything else I can do?

Any other advise will be greatly appricated.

Need to know ---- Now--Will not give up
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Old Aug 26th 2004, 4:57 pm
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller

You may of course try with London and I really wish you all the luck with it, but reality is that the only thing now what you can prove (if getting proper evidence as I have listed) is your relative in Canada. It will add only 5 points to your score and get you to the total of 64 - still short.
There is still a possibility.....the adaptability points is 4....in that case
the points reflect that of CLP/spouse's bachelor's.

Therefore it makes sense for the spouse /CLP to be the primary applicant. With correct documenation , points are also given for clp/spouse's
relatives in canada.

20(bachelors) + 16 (provided spouse is UK born /raised ) + 10 (age) + 21 (provided 4 years experience) + adapability (5 + perhaps some for
high school...)....over 70!!!!!
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Old Sep 14th 2004, 6:37 am
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Mr Miller

we are back from our hols and :

We have managed to get hold of old passports that have parents names on do you think that this is sufficent evidence to link my aunt and my dad?

Also we have sat the english test again and score over 7.5 in all areas will this count? for the max 16 points

please advise

need to know -- will not give up!




Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
Language - you were awarded 12 points correctly as per your IELTS results. 4 points for each skill with score of 7.5 and 2 points for each skill with score of 6. Your mistake was to submit iELTS in the first place - as UK born and raised you should have submitted substitute evidence only.

Your aunt - you were properly asked and given the chance to prove that your aunt is your aunt. But you took the "easy road" upon irresponsible advice from your "lawyer" and paid the price. It doesn't matter that your aunt never got her birth certificate - she could have obtained it now without any problems through Indian embassy/consulate. So, no conclusive proof = no points for relative in Canada. Sorry, but it is how it works.

Education - you were given 12 points correctly. High school diploma would have been awarded only with 5 points. In my opinion officer was quite generous by giving you 12 points for qualifications you mentioned.

Conclusion - points were awarded properly as per evidence submitted, thus no error in law was made. You were given the chance to submit additional evidence as required and you failed to do so.

You may of course try with London and I really wish you all the luck with it, but reality is that the only thing now what you can prove (if getting proper evidence as I have listed) is your relative in Canada. It will add only 5 points to your score and get you to the total of 64 - still short.
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Old Sep 14th 2004, 7:23 am
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Hi

Originally Posted by need to know
Mr Miller

we are back from our hols and :

We have managed to get hold of old passports that have parents names on do you think that this is sufficent evidence to link my aunt and my dad?

Also we have sat the english test again and score over 7.5 in all areas will this count? for the max 16 points

please advise

need to know -- will not give up!
With 7.5, you will get the 16 points, but the passports are not sufficient, you need birth certificates, you father's his sister, yours to prove relationship and proof that the Aunt is residing in Canada. You know you have to apply again with a whole new application.

PMM
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Old Sep 14th 2004, 8:58 am
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

Hi PMM

birth certificates are not avaiable as my aunt was born in pakistan and my father in india during the civil conflict between the two countries.

so would DNA be a option?

thanks



With 7.5, you will get the 16 points, but the passports are not sufficient, you need birth certificates, you father's his sister, yours to prove relationship and proof that the Aunt is residing in Canada. You know you have to apply again with a whole new application.

PMM[/QUOTE]
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Old Sep 14th 2004, 9:16 am
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

DNA in some circumstances may be an option, but it is the (very!) expensive one. Birth certificates can be obtained through proper embassies and you should try this option first.

Please check your email as I've already replied to your earlier email.


Originally Posted by need to know
Hi PMM

birth certificates are not avaiable as my aunt was born in pakistan and my father in india during the civil conflict between the two countries.

so would DNA be a option?

thanks



With 7.5, you will get the 16 points, but the passports are not sufficient, you need birth certificates, you father's his sister, yours to prove relationship and proof that the Aunt is residing in Canada. You know you have to apply again with a whole new application.

PMM
[/QUOTE]
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Old Sep 14th 2004, 1:52 pm
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Default Re: mr miller please advise we have been refused

I mean no offence here but I guess this case is a typical example of an unripe application forcibly reaped by an unexperienced lawyer for his own financial advantage.
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