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Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Old Jun 23rd 2008, 4:20 am
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Hi,

My intention after my studies (12 months) while SW PR continues to works its way through the system is initially get an OCWP after 6 months and move to get a PGWP once successfully graduated under new rules for International Students open visa for 12 months without requiring job offer.

I then want to establish my own company that I will work for and the company will then provide my services as a contractor/supplier of services to other companies in both Canada and the UK.

So far so good (?)

Now at the end of the 12 months PGWP presumably as owner / director + employee of my company I will need to seek LMO from me as the employer about granting myself as an employee for TWP to continue working (for another 12/24/36 months?) - given that SW PR is still not through at that point (24 months since submission at Buffalo).

Is the above correct.

Are there any qualifying criteria my company, that will have been trading 12 months by the time the PGWP runs out, will have to meet as an employer for the purposes of being able to grant LMO on TWP.

Presumably any Canadian employees I have at that point will end up being made redundant if my TWP is not granted as I will not be able to continue running the company?

Kind Regards


Ben

Last edited by BenB2; Jun 23rd 2008 at 4:29 am.
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 11:02 am
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

When applying for LMO company must document being in business for at least 12 months and having other than owner full time employees for the same period. Thus yourself as only employee won't work. Plus remember about 3 months recruiting effort, offering position nationwide with advertised salary in the middle to above middle range of salary paid for the same position in the same area and proof that despite such effort you were unable to find a Canadian for the job.
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 11:26 am
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Hi Andrew,

Many thanks for your reply that is great and gives me food for thought should still be doable to employee someone doing something.

As the Entrepeneur starting the business is this exempt from LMO as suggested in the wiki:

http://britishexpats.com/wiki/Tempor...Permits-Canada

I do struggle a bit with TWP's and what CIC is trying to achieve for Canada on one hand it is saying skilled labour etc etc - but assuming I am not Albert Einstein, Max Plank, Stephen Hawking or similar uber scientist where their brain is demonstrably unique and we are looking for some very advanced very specialized job, or, at the other end of the scale a job so horrible no one wants to do it. If it is neither of the above opposite ends of the spectrum.....

It seems to me that any other normal skilled reasonably paid job that occurs to me that is subject to a test of 3 month national advertising and not one single Canadian applicant - is an impossible test to satisfy - maybe Canadians are a really lazy work shy bunch of dolies - but seriously seriously I really doubt this - human beings everywhere have get up and go so I cant see how any TWP ever get issued for sensible jobs - labour shortages or no labour shortages - people still apply when they are looking around for green grass.

When we advertise at my company in the UK locally let alone nationally for a position we get inundated with applications - I get rung at least twice a week by new cold calling recruitment agencies trying to place candidates and if we have any positions. Surely it is broadly/directionally similar in Canada.

I am also uncertain how to reconcile the three month rule with all the networking advice about accessing the hidden job market - surely the 3 month rule means any position an immigrant can get a TWP for has to be nationally advertised.

I am not criticizing, just trying to understand what the system is trying to achieve as this understanding will help me pull in a synergistic direction. It all seems a little contradictory and non joined up thinking at the moment about LMO, so I conclude that maybe I am assuming the objectives are something else???

Thanks again for your help Andrew.

Kind Regards

Ben
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 11:33 am
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Hi,

Presumably there is a reasonableness test when advertising a job position with the three month rule.

If I come up with a job spec and requirements list of skills that so uniquely matches my skills and experience there is not another human being on the planet (or maybe there is one somewhere) - but you get the idea - would that then fail LMO as being too selective or they would say ok, but those are the sorts of skills you would find in these three different people so you need to employee those three individuals instead of employing your self as an employee in your own business.

Is there any form of test for jobs spanning multiple NOC codes and specific skills and product knowledge?

Thanks again.

Kind Regards

Ben
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 11:38 am
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Start here:

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/en/workplaces..._workers.shtml

and learn some basics how HRSDC assesses LMO applications here:

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/en/workplaces...sessment.shtml

If, as you think, 3 months national advertising and recruiting effort requirement is an impossible test to satisfy then we wouldn't have 120,000+ work permits issued each year and we wouldn't have LMO processing times exceeding 6 months in many areas my friend.
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 11:46 am
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Hi,

Many thanks will go and read.

I will reserve comment on my thoughts regarding the 120K+ and 6 months lead time. Ultimately the system we have to work with is the one that exists and that is the one I have to do my best to work with.

Kind Regards

Ben
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 12:44 pm
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Originally Posted by BenB2
Hi,

Many thanks will go and read.

I will reserve comment on my thoughts regarding the 120K+ and 6 months lead time. Ultimately the system we have to work with is the one that exists and that is the one I have to do my best to work with.

Kind Regards

Ben
As you'll probably find out when you read the links that Andrew gave you, not all jobs have to be advertised for 3 months.

In the case of Occupations under Pressure, they have to be advertised only for 7 days.

In the case of an Expedited Labour Market Opinion (E-LMO), no advertising at all is required. The website claims that, if all paperwork is in order, an E-LMO is issued within 5 business days. I've witnessed a case here of an E-LMO being issued in 4 days. I've also seen one that has taken 7 weeks. Still, compared with other people's waiting times (for regular LMOs), that's not bad.

As you will see from the website, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to be eligible for an E-LMO. Carpenters, hotel front desk clerks, and registered nurses are amongst those who qualify.

Then there are the software developers who are in such hot demand that they don't need LMOs in order to get TWPs.

There are people on this website whose employers have waited eight months for them to get to Canada on TWPs. Obviously employers don't like having to do that. That's one of the reasons why they're loath to hire foreign workers in the first place. But, if they are desparate enough for a person in a given occupation in a given region, they'll wait. That's why it's so very important to be aware of labour shortages (which occupations are in demand and the regions in which they're in demand).

Hope that helps.
x
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 1:35 pm
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Hi Judy,

Thanks for your post. I will add that all to my reading list as well.

I completely agree - software development - perfect but.... the list of qualifying products was written by someone with all due respect knows nada about the IT industry in the real world current products and technologies and has picked some big names off a list they didnt understand in 2002.

There are some obvious key glaring gaps today in 2008 and omitions from the lists of products let alone the more obscure and by definition hard to come by and rare IT products and skills. It is truly frustrating especially when the document on CIC's web site was written nearly six years ago from the date stamp on the bottom of it - the market and technology today is in a very different place now.

In the directional spirit of what the IT Special category is driving at I qualify many times over in more than one development application / integration & tele communication category - but the list is out of date - ie as one example - Windows 3.x is on the list whereas Windows 2000, 2003 & XP are not. This is my apparent problem with the IT Special Category.

I am NOC 0013 (so I am on the BC Occupation under pressure list) IT & Senior Management for the last ten years, want to invest loads of money and employee & train Canadian people. I want to start a new company to do this. I can deliver work by out-sourcing work from my UK companies to Canada and hence create jobs. The reason I am not applying under Business Class is due to the various restrictions around the different levels. Companies, especially new small ones need to be flexible and agile adapting to change and capitalizing on opportunity.

But at the end of the day I will be the employer using my cash to invest for equity in the company - to then pay myself market rate !@? - into my directors load account, pay tax and reinvest on the balance sheet for more issued equity. Which is a bit siily as it initially cripples the companies P&L and ability to secure lines of credit. But it is not a cash flow thing its an accounting thing. The point of having loads of financial resources to support yourself is that you dont need to pay yourself to survive - the above cycle will simply move cash around and pay taxes creating carried forward losses offsetable against any corporation tax.

I also want to supplementally be able to provide contracted services as NOC 5135 (also on the BC under pressure list) having been trained in BC. Due to the nature of the work covered by 5135 it makes most sense to provide this through a service company, such that my employment is with the company and then the company has a contract for supply of services with the client. This is the way contracting is generally done in the UK and also more sensible than having to obtain a different TWP for each client company if employed directly on lots of different short term contracts - assuming of course this allowed under the rules.

Unfortunately while ski/snow board instructor is on the expedite list bizarrely there are not any IT or investor listed.

Thanks again for your help.

Kind Regards


Ben

Last edited by BenB2; Jun 23rd 2008 at 1:49 pm.
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 1:52 pm
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

I understand your frustration, but those 7 IT occupations is just a pilot program carried over each year - nobody at CIC wants to kill it and nobody is interested in updating it. It is just an experiment.

As for snowboarding instructor versus investor - you are wrong here my friend. The former are in short supply while the latter are not.

One of the main reasons getting TWP for self-employed running his/her own business is rather tough is past abuse of this route when it was little bit more flexible than it is now.

It is still quite difficult for me to understand why someone who is graduating in BC is not looking into all possibilities and options available to international graduates and doesn't even try to find the job for PGWP and later for LMO, instead of thinking how to spend money going through unnecessary hoops and loops that likely won't even work.
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 2:07 pm
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Hi,

In my first post I outlined, possibly indirectly, that I was looking to map out the path for what happened after the PGWP expires.

Because of the nature of what I do it make sense for this to be provided through a company rather than discrete contracts with each requiring a separate TWP.

If the TWP system worked differently then it would be more attractive to get separate TWPs for each contract, but as you pointed out with delays up to six months, and Judy echoed employer reticence in employing a foreigner due to the pain and delays of the paper work. The system that exists is not favorable to lots of different short term (temporary) contracts which is the very nature of NOC 5135 which BC want and also a lot of IT project contracts with customers.

So it would seem on the face of it that this needs to be accomplished through a service company to aggregate the contracts together and have my employment sitting under that company.

Besides - the work that I want to outsource from the UK are "my" contracts why would I want to give all the profit to a another employer rather than starting a new company of my own to deliver the services through.

Kind Regards

Ben
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Old Jun 23rd 2008, 2:16 pm
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Default Re: Moving from PGWP to TWP & LMO in your own company

Ben, I try to understand your thinking, but it is hard. You need to define priorities and goals. If your goal is to become a PR as soon as possible then you must do everything possible to achieve that goal. Once you are a PR you may start and run your business the way you want.

But don't try to mix things that may not mix well, don't jeopardize your main goal - a PR received in the shortest possible time with as little pain and problems as possible is worth much more than the business plan you may or may not implement later, after you are already a PR.

You don't need to give up "your contracts" - just put them on hold, get a job qualifying for LMO after your PGWP runs out just in case your PR is not completed by then and be happy.
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