Mother in law - options required

Old Oct 3rd 2008, 11:58 am
  #1  
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Default Mother in law - options required

Ok,

So i've been on this forum long enough to know the kind of answers this one attracts, but once the jokes are over - I really need some help to spell out some long term options for bringing over my mother in law.

The scenario is:

We hope to be permanent residents by next year.

If that all goes well, then my wife's (only child) mother (divorced) may want to join us. She'll be retired so right to work won't be a deciding issue.

Her worry is that this won't actually be possible due to the medical assessment criteria for sponsored application (i.e - kidney transplant 15 years ago)

Can any of you experts please clarify the situation for us regarding sponsoring parents. In particular is there a way by which we could act as guarantors on the health side with additional funds or something to overcome the potential problems.

This is an emotionally live issue so any help really will be appreciated.

Thanks
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Old Oct 3rd 2008, 12:48 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

There is no option to guarantee covering health expenses, sorry. Let's say you have money today, you sponsor a parent and when something goes wrong you have no money, then what? Canadian taxpayers will pick up the tab?
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Old Oct 3rd 2008, 1:38 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Thanks, but thats not actually what I meant,

I was rather meaning what are the options for her staying in the country on an extended basis without working and by us taking care of medical through a private health care plan etc.

Obviously she has the right for 6 months of the year as a tourist, but we are hoping for a more long term solution - i've seen talk of extensions to visitor visa's etc. but don't know a great deal.

On the other side, does anyone have an insight into the particular medical assessment process for a sponsored parent. I'd imagine that pretty much every older parent being brought over often has a more complicated medical history. Do you think it would be beneficial for her to actually take a medical assessment at this stage to provide an indication?
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Old Oct 3rd 2008, 2:20 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

She can visit for up to 6 months. If she starts "visiting" permanently (leaving Canada for short period and returning for another 6 months) one beautiful day she will be refused admission or be granted just a week or so admission to allow her to pack.

As for insurance - travel insurance is for emergencies only (including evacuation to home country if serious treatment is needed) and never covers any pre-existing conditions. Call various insurers and find out yourself.

So, there is no long term solution, not for residency and not for insurance, sorry.

As for medical inadmissibility - nobody, not even doctor in Canada can tell you what the medical decision may be. You must go through the process (few years at best) and at the end of process your in-law will undergo medical examination, results will be assessed by CIC's medical officer and decision will be made. There is no other way to find out if she will be inadmissible or not.
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Old Oct 3rd 2008, 4:05 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Thanks again for taking the time to respond in such detail.

We wouldn't intend to push the limits on visits - the assumption had been that she may want to come out regularly i.e. 3 months on 3 months off. Correct me if i'm wrong but I wouldn't have thought that the border officials would frown on such behaviour.

I had also understood that there may be justification for applying for an extended visitors visa - for example if we were to have a child and she wanted to stay a bit longer and help out.

With regards to pursuing a full sponsored application, I do understand that she would need to attend a medical at the end of the process and that only then would a decision be taken - However I also read that in addition you could opt to undergo a pre-application medical similar to those for spouse applications which could at least give a general indication on the view which may be adopted at the final assessment.

I am aware that typical travel insurance only provides for emergencies, but I had thought that some creative company would have a private health care scheme which could cover extended stays in other countries through sister companies - just musing.
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Old Oct 3rd 2008, 5:05 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Medical inadmissibility is a specialist area within immigration practice, and you would be well advised to get specialist advice assuming you can afford that.

As an immigration consultant and CSIC member I often deal with sponsorship applications, including those for parents, and occasionally medical issues present themselves.

The case law has changed in recent years, and since the Supreme Court of Canada decided that an otherwise medically inadmissible minor child should be allowed to immigrate because there was evidence his parents were able to pay for his medical care and there was evidence they would do so, the outlook for cases such as yours has improved.

Normally, long-term visitor extensions can be obtained for parents to stay in Canada while the sponsorship application is processed, provided there are adequate financial arrangements for their support and if they have medical cover. In your mother-in-law'ss case, hwoever, this needs to be looked at in detail in view of her medical condition.

Apologies for the sales pitch, but you may want to contact us about this. We try not to deal with these issues by ourselves - we would work on your case in conjunction with an expert attorney in Toronto who is a specialist in this area.

Kind regards,

Ron Liberman
CSIC Member #M041194
Best Place Immigration Inc.
1500 West Georgia-Suite 1400, Vancouver, BC V6G 2Z6, Canada
Website: http://www.bestplace.ca Inbound U.K. number: (020) 7193 4384
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Old Oct 3rd 2008, 9:13 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Originally Posted by blake75 View Post
Thanks, but thats not actually what I meant,

I was rather meaning what are the options for her staying in the country on an extended basis without working and by us taking care of medical through a private health care plan etc.

Obviously she has the right for 6 months of the year as a tourist, but we are hoping for a more long term solution - i've seen talk of extensions to visitor visa's etc. but don't know a great deal.

On the other side, does anyone have an insight into the particular medical assessment process for a sponsored parent. I'd imagine that pretty much every older parent being brought over often has a more complicated medical history. Do you think it would be beneficial for her to actually take a medical assessment at this stage to provide an indication?
I have some first-hand experience of this. My mother-in-law has been with us as a visitor 2 years and counting. So although some of the above replies dont sound very encouraging I can tell you that it can be done. There are a couple of things to be aware of...

1) once you are able to (i.e. once you have been in Canada long enough to earn over the minimum income for sponsorship) you should put in an application to sponsor her. It takes years and doesnt cost a fortune to apply so it doesn make any sense not to do it because you think she might get rejected.

2) The kidney transplant does not mean she will be refused. Yes there is an area of immigration law known as medical inadmissibility but she would only be inadmissible for one of two possible reasons:
a) she is a danger to public health (i.e. has a comumicable disease etc) - clearly that isnt the case.
b) because she will place excessive demand on the health system. To determine that they use a rule of thumb taking the average per capita health spend (about $5k per year) and decide whether she's likely to cost the health system more than that.
So, if she is still having a lot of ongoing treatment and is likely to be a costly patient there might be a problem but if she is recovered then there is no reason to expect she would be a drain on the system in the future.

3) If you want het to visit long term in the meantime then first she needs to come on a visitor visa. The give UK citizens 6 months automatically but the immigration officer has a discretionary power to grant her 12 months at the port of entry if she asks for it so its worth a try. If they only give her 6 months then what you need to do is file an application to extend her temporary resident visa (you must file at least 30 days before the current one runs out). You can keep renewing as many times as you want - there is no limit as long as she meets the basic conditions (more on this below).

4) The key to getting the temp visa renewed is that you must demonstrate the visit is still temporary and she is prepared to leave. Make sure you say "continue to visit" and not stay! Also, you must show that she has sufficient means of supportin herself. You need to send bank statements showing some cash in the bank and evidence of pension income etc. Lastly they will want to see that you have some sort of medical insurance in place for her. We buy a private medical insurance for my MIL through Co-Operative Insurance (I can get you the details if you need them) and it is sort of a travel policy but provide medical coverage for ex-pats who dont have it. In other words you dont get repatriated to the UK if something goes wrong you get treated locally.

I agree in part with Andrew Miller - it isnt a good practice to leave the country and come back - immigration officials are clamping down on this. But there is the possibility to extend through the official channels (as outlined above) which he didnt mention.

And despite Ron Liberman's sale pitch (in a very first post as well!) I would say you dont need to start spending money on an immigration consultant just yet! First things first! You need to become permanent residents yourselves first and earn a certain level of income before you can sponser her. And the application to sponsor (something your wife would fill in to sponsor her mother) doesnt start asking for medical details yet. All it really does is get you a place in the queue. When that part gets approved (expect a 2 year wait) then your MIL would apply to emigrate to Canada and then the medical information is requested. So who knows, the law could change by then and she might be perfectly fine with regard to the "excessive demand" issue anyway. Only if she gets rejected on medical grounds do you need specialist help as you would then need to go to tribunal (and thats the point at which case law etc starts to have some relevance).

In the meantime bringin her over as a temporary resident and periodically extending is the answer.
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Old Oct 3rd 2008, 11:06 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Originally Posted by NSpaul View Post
I have some first-hand experience of this. My mother-in-law has been with us as a visitor 2 years and counting. So although some of the above replies dont sound very encouraging I can tell you that it can be done. There are a couple of things to be aware of...

1) once you are able to (i.e. once you have been in Canada long enough to earn over the minimum income for sponsorship) you should put in an application to sponsor her. It takes years and doesnt cost a fortune to apply so it doesn make any sense not to do it because you think she might get rejected.

2) The kidney transplant does not mean she will be refused. Yes there is an area of immigration law known as medical inadmissibility but she would only be inadmissible for one of two possible reasons:
a) she is a danger to public health (i.e. has a comumicable disease etc) - clearly that isnt the case.
b) because she will place excessive demand on the health system. To determine that they use a rule of thumb taking the average per capita health spend (about $5k per year) and decide whether she's likely to cost the health system more than that.
So, if she is still having a lot of ongoing treatment and is likely to be a costly patient there might be a problem but if she is recovered then there is no reason to expect she would be a drain on the system in the future.

3) If you want het to visit long term in the meantime then first she needs to come on a visitor visa. The give UK citizens 6 months automatically but the immigration officer has a discretionary power to grant her 12 months at the port of entry if she asks for it so its worth a try. If they only give her 6 months then what you need to do is file an application to extend her temporary resident visa (you must file at least 30 days before the current one runs out). You can keep renewing as many times as you want - there is no limit as long as she meets the basic conditions (more on this below).

4) The key to getting the temp visa renewed is that you must demonstrate the visit is still temporary and she is prepared to leave. Make sure you say "continue to visit" and not stay! Also, you must show that she has sufficient means of supportin herself. You need to send bank statements showing some cash in the bank and evidence of pension income etc. Lastly they will want to see that you have some sort of medical insurance in place for her. We buy a private medical insurance for my MIL through Co-Operative Insurance (I can get you the details if you need them) and it is sort of a travel policy but provide medical coverage for ex-pats who dont have it. In other words you dont get repatriated to the UK if something goes wrong you get treated locally.

I agree in part with Andrew Miller - it isnt a good practice to leave the country and come back - immigration officials are clamping down on this. But there is the possibility to extend through the official channels (as outlined above) which he didnt mention.

And despite Ron Liberman's sale pitch (in a very first post as well!) I would say you dont need to start spending money on an immigration consultant just yet! First things first! You need to become permanent residents yourselves first and earn a certain level of income before you can sponser her. And the application to sponsor (something your wife would fill in to sponsor her mother) doesnt start asking for medical details yet. All it really does is get you a place in the queue. When that part gets approved (expect a 2 year wait) then your MIL would apply to emigrate to Canada and then the medical information is requested. So who knows, the law could change by then and she might be perfectly fine with regard to the "excessive demand" issue anyway. Only if she gets rejected on medical grounds do you need specialist help as you would then need to go to tribunal (and thats the point at which case law etc starts to have some relevance).

In the meantime bringin her over as a temporary resident and periodically extending is the answer.
Hi, hope you dont mind me joining in!! But we are in a similar position to the OP, we arrive in Vancouver nxt week on a 3 year TWP but plan to apply for PR. My MIL is coming out with us on holiday for 2 weeks to help us settle in with our kids. She previously lived in Vancouver for 8 years and did have PR, but she left 4 years ago due to personal reasons and has been living with us in england since, so she has now lost her PR status. We would like her to try and appeal her PR status on compassionate grounds? But we did not know about being able to extend temp visa so this may be a option for her.
Could you PM me with the details for the co-op insurance, this would be a help.
Any advise would be most helpful. Thanks.
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Old Oct 4th 2008, 12:05 am
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Originally Posted by VanSte2000 View Post
Hi, hope you dont mind me joining in!! But we are in a similar position to the OP, we arrive in Vancouver nxt week on a 3 year TWP but plan to apply for PR. My MIL is coming out with us on holiday for 2 weeks to help us settle in with our kids. She previously lived in Vancouver for 8 years and did have PR, but she left 4 years ago due to personal reasons and has been living with us in england since, so she has now lost her PR status. We would like her to try and appeal her PR status on compassionate grounds? But we did not know about being able to extend temp visa so this may be a option for her.
Could you PM me with the details for the co-op insurance, this would be a help.
Any advise would be most helpful. Thanks.
I'll try and find the insurance details for you. As far as maintaining permanent resident status goes there is a requirement to be resident for at least 730 days in a 5 year period. But there are many instances where appeals have been successful on humanitarian and compassionate grounds and the residency obligation has been relaxed so you could try appealing. Of course as with any appeal it isnt an instant process! Otherwise you could attempt to sponsor her once you have gained permanent resident status yourselves (you can sponsor while you're on a TWP).
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Old Oct 4th 2008, 1:08 am
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

With all due respect - and forgive me also for being so bold when I am new here - but it does seem to me in both these instances some professional help would be useful.

a) As blake75 says this is "an emotinally live issue". Older people start to feel very insecure when they have to leave their home country and go somewhere else. When that new existence seems tenuous and may end ultimately in them being asked to leave the country, it may be best that they know their options beforehand. Otherwise the emotional strain, even when it comes time to renew their status, may impose a big toll on alll of you. In general, there is no better time to start looking to avoid immigration problems than at the outset. The longer you waut to consult someone, the harder it becomes to correct any problems that occur.

b) For NSpaul - once again, it seems wise to be a little careful. Under the Federal program, you cannot sponsor her while you are in Canada on a work permit. Once you are a permanent resident and have sufficient income, yes you can. Keep in mind however that someone does not lose their permanent resident status until after there is a Hearing and they are deprived of it, or if they agree to renounce it. You cannot sponsor her if she is still a permanent resident!

I will keep quiet now, so as not to ruffle too many feathers.

Kind regards,

Ron Liberman

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Old Oct 4th 2008, 3:19 am
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Originally Posted by Ron Liberman View Post
With all due respect - and forgive me also for being so bold when I am new here - but it does seem to me in both these instances some professional help would be useful.

a) As blake75 says this is "an emotinally live issue". Older people start to feel very insecure when they have to leave their home country and go somewhere else. When that new existence seems tenuous and may end ultimately in them being asked to leave the country, it may be best that they know their options beforehand. Otherwise the emotional strain, even when it comes time to renew their status, may impose a big toll on alll of you. In general, there is no better time to start looking to avoid immigration problems than at the outset. The longer you waut to consult someone, the harder it becomes to correct any problems that occur.

b) For NSpaul - once again, it seems wise to be a little careful. Under the Federal program, you cannot sponsor her while you are in Canada on a work permit. Once you are a permanent resident and have sufficient income, yes you can. Keep in mind however that someone does not lose their permanent resident status until after there is a Hearing and they are deprived of it, or if they agree to renounce it. You cannot sponsor her if she is still a permanent resident!

I will keep quiet now, so as not to ruffle too many feathers.

Kind regards,

Ron Liberman
Regarding a) I'm not sure if I can see the logic in that. What help would consultation (for a fee presumably) provide at this stage? There is no reason to suspect she is inadmissible on medical grounds for reason of excessive demand yet. Your comments sound like scare-mongering to me. And you say "The longer you waut to consult someone, the harder it becomes to correct any problems that occur" - are you suggesting that an up-front consultation with you will some how improve her medical history? If the OP does go down the sponsorship route and several years from know there is a refusal deision (which I personally think is unlikely based on the facts) then there is nothing that can be done (i.e. an appeal) until the decision is made. It would be crazy to say to the mother-in-law "dont come to Canada as a visitor dear just in case you arent allowed to stay permanently in a few years time".

As for b) I thought that was what I had already said - that the people on TWPs would have to wait until they gained PR status to sponsor.
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Old Oct 4th 2008, 6:50 am
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Hmmm ... well i was going to keep quiet, but this seems to require commenting!

Re a) The purpose of a consultation would be to work out if there is likely to be a medical inadmissibility issue, and to outline the viable options for this family, including, if in fact there is likely to be a medical isssue, the possibility of guaranteeing payment of the relevant costs in a manner that is acceptable to CIC. In that case there would need to be an estimate of the medical costs, a cogent and credible explanation of how those would be met from the family's existing resources and probably guarantees would need to be structured to ensure the costs would continue to be paid. This seems to me to cover what blake75 asked initially!

Re b) No, in fact you wrote that they could sponsor while on TWP's. Perhaps that was a typo.

To my mind, the issue of her permanent residence needs to be resolved before she can be sponsored. In fact. I am not even cetain this lady has lost her PR status. The new Act came into force on June 28, 2002. if she left 4 years ago that would have been in 2004. It is therefore possible that before leaving she accumulated the 730 days (2 years, roughly) needed during the first 5 years after the Act came into force. If that is so, my reading of the Act is that she only needs to accumulate an additional 730 days in the 5 years folllowing i.e. by June 28,2012 - and she can still do that.

Kind regards,

Ron liberman
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Old Oct 4th 2008, 2:06 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Originally Posted by Ron Liberman View Post
Hmmm ... well i was going to keep quiet, but this seems to require commenting!

Re a) The purpose of a consultation would be to work out if there is likely to be a medical inadmissibility issue, and to outline the viable options for this family, including, if in fact there is likely to be a medical isssue, the possibility of guaranteeing payment of the relevant costs in a manner that is acceptable to CIC. In that case there would need to be an estimate of the medical costs, a cogent and credible explanation of how those would be met from the family's existing resources and probably guarantees would need to be structured to ensure the costs would continue to be paid. This seems to me to cover what blake75 asked initially!

Re b) No, in fact you wrote that they could sponsor while on TWP's. Perhaps that was a typo.

To my mind, the issue of her permanent residence needs to be resolved before she can be sponsored. In fact. I am not even cetain this lady has lost her PR status. The new Act came into force on June 28, 2002. if she left 4 years ago that would have been in 2004. It is therefore possible that before leaving she accumulated the 730 days (2 years, roughly) needed during the first 5 years after the Act came into force. If that is so, my reading of the Act is that she only needs to accumulate an additional 730 days in the 5 years folllowing i.e. by June 28,2012 - and she can still do that.

Kind regards,

Ron liberman
Hi Ron,
I have just read your relp and I wanted to ask if you could explain it a bit more for me. It is my MIL who has PR status(or did). She first became a PR in 1997 and stayed in Vancouver permanatly until Feb 2004 after her husband died. She had renewed her PR in June 2003, so now on her card it states it has run out in june 2008. I dont know anything about the act you are talking about, but is there a possibilty that she may be able to renew without to much problem?

She is coming out to Vancouver with us next week. And we wanted to look into this while she is there.
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Old Oct 4th 2008, 3:46 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

You already got the correct answer:

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=560055
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Old Oct 4th 2008, 4:52 pm
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Default Re: Mother in law - options required

Unfortunately, yes - you have already received the correct answer. If she left in April, 2004 and has not been back to Canada since then, she has missed meeting the residency requirements by 2 or 3 months.

My advice would be to answer any questions fully and honestly at the airport. There is a lawyer in town who would tell you otherwise i.e. she must be honest, but she can refuse to tell CBSA how long she has been out of the country, which of course preserves her rights at a future Hearing, but will likely annoy the authorities no end! In any case, they will have to let her in. The H&C arguments can be put forward when her residency status is formally evaluated, or at an official Hearing.
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