Ladies & gentlemen : the law

Old Aug 19th 2004, 7:53 am
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Default Ladies & gentlemen : the law

Just something I learned a couple of days ago. If one meets all criteria and medicals & security checks are ok, it is the law that a permanent resident visa has to be given to the applicant.
Am I right ?
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Old Aug 19th 2004, 9:12 am
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

In an essence yes, but you must remember what is the meaning of **all selection criteria**.

It means not only number of points at the time of application but also pass mark in place at the time of assessment and when visa is to be issued - and pass mark may change at any given time.

It also means that you need to meet in addition to floating pass mark all other selection criteria that are in place not only at the time of application but also at the time visa is to be issued:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor2-227/sec77.html

It also means that regardless having enough points to reach or exceed the pass mark (regardless how high it may go by the time your visa is to be issued) your qualifications, skills and abilities must be sufficient enough to convince processing officer that you can successfully establish yourself economically in Canada - if in officer's opinion the number of points awarded is not a sufficient indicator of whether you may become economically established in Canada officer must use substitute evaluation and your case may still be refused as you can see in section (3) below:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor2-227/sec76.html

So, before you start celebrating read all the above and ask yourself if you are meeting **all criteria** - the truth is that you won't know until visa is issued.

And just for reality check - I have quite few clients who applied on their own with well above 75 points and got refused on the basis of R76(3) above (including person who completed Masters, PhD and 2 years of post-doc fellowship in Canada). After refusal they realized that points are not everything and hired me for their new application.

Brutal, eh? But it is the reality.

Conclusion? Yes, it is the law that visa should be issued to applicant who met all of the above. But one won't know if he or she met all of the above until passport request letter arrives. Anything before (points, interview waiver, initial selection decision, admissibility checks, etc.) may mean zip if at the time of final decision (passport request) you can't meet any of the above just because pass mark went up or your occupation landed on restricted occupations list or officer used substitute evaluation as per R76(3) to make negative selection decision.




Originally Posted by juliusmaximus
Just something I learned a couple of days ago. If one meets all criteria and medicals & security checks are ok, it is the law that a permanent resident visa has to be given to the applicant.
Am I right ?
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Old Aug 19th 2004, 10:58 pm
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
In an essence yes, but you must remember what is the meaning of **all selection criteria**.

It means not only number of points at the time of application but also pass mark in place at the time of assessment and when visa is to be issued - and pass mark may change at any given time.

It also means that you need to meet in addition to floating pass mark all other selection criteria that are in place not only at the time of application but also at the time visa is to be issued:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor2-227/sec77.html

It also means that regardless having enough points to reach or exceed the pass mark (regardless how high it may go by the time your visa is to be issued) your qualifications, skills and abilities must be sufficient enough to convince processing officer that you can successfully establish yourself economically in Canada - if in officer's opinion the number of points awarded is not a sufficient indicator of whether you may become economically established in Canada officer must use substitute evaluation and your case may still be refused as you can see in section (3) below:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor2-227/sec76.html

So, before you start celebrating read all the above and ask yourself if you are meeting **all criteria** - the truth is that you won't know until visa is issued.

And just for reality check - I have quite few clients who applied on their own with well above 75 points and got refused on the basis of R76(3) above (including person who completed Masters, PhD and 2 years of post-doc fellowship in Canada). After refusal they realized that points are not everything and hired me for their new application.

Brutal, eh? But it is the reality.

Conclusion? Yes, it is the law that visa should be issued to applicant who met all of the above. But one won't know if he or she met all of the above until passport request letter arrives. Anything before (points, interview waiver, initial selection decision, admissibility checks, etc.) may mean zip if at the time of final decision (passport request) you can't meet any of the above just because pass mark went up or your occupation landed on restricted occupations list or officer used substitute evaluation as per R76(3) to make negative selection decision.
However hiring a consultant does not change the R76(3)...does it?
If bad luck is there it will happen....
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Old Aug 19th 2004, 11:46 pm
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

Originally Posted by Xylene
However hiring a consultant does not change the R76(3)...does it?
If bad luck is there it will happen....
For positive/negative discretion, unfortunately a lot depends on which officer
is taking your case...just like it happens at US Embassy. Some simply get away easy without any question but some get unlucky and get harassed and get rejected. Sometimes the officer has a had day (or perhaps bad night before) and he takes it out on the applicant.
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Old Aug 20th 2004, 3:07 am
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

It has and shouldn't have nothing to do with luck - it is all about meticulous preparation of the entire application package, without leaving any room for officer's interpretation or doubts and about addressing all matters that may raise any question or doubts, including applicant's abilities and chances to succeed in Canada. If you want to gamble and count on your luck then do it yourself. If you want to minimize the risk, have a strong, professionally and conclusively prepared package then hire reputable, experienced immigration practitioner. Good or bad day - processing officer dealing with well prepared application should have no room left for interpretation and any discretion. And if officer sees case well prepared and conclusively presented by reputable practitioner he or she may not be so keen to use a negative substitute evaluation that will for sure lead to legal challenge from that practitioner.

It is your entire life's future that's on stake here, not only months or years of delays in processing poorly prepared case.


Originally Posted by Xylene
However hiring a consultant does not change the R76(3)...does it?
If bad luck is there it will happen....

Last edited by Andrew Miller; Aug 20th 2004 at 3:14 am.
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Old Aug 20th 2004, 3:58 am
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

very well said

remember, it's your life!

I prepared my own application, but it took us 2 months to fill it out because I was meticulous. If you can't spend 6 hours x 3 reviewing every bit and making sure everything is complete and correct AFTER spending 2 months filling it out 5 times and compiling information, hire someone.

Professionalism is key.
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Old Aug 20th 2004, 7:48 am
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

Hallo Mr Miller,

I think you are right, but as far as I know it doesn't matter if you hire somebody to represent you or you fill an application by yourself.
The only difference is the practicioner has more experience how to do that.
Anyway, in my opinion it isn't so difficult to prepare the application, but it costs a lot of time and patience.
If somebody feel, he/she can do it he/she should.
One more - I think it doesn't influence on officer decision, if there is any representant, unless the officer knows he or she.

MJ
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Old Aug 20th 2004, 8:30 am
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

The last factor fortunately doesn't exist at all, contrary to popular belief of many who are applying from countries with high corruption rate in their own government and bureaucracy like it is in Poland and many other countries. This belief is often cultivated by dishonest "consultants" who claim having "connections". FYI - it is against law in Canada for a practitioner (lawyer or consultant) to claim having "connections" or any influence on CIC staff.

Of course it probably won't make the difference in the quality and conclusiveness of application package between prepared on your own and prepared by experienced practitioner but only if you have the same or better level of knowledge and experience as such practitioner does. You may learn other things too and be your own plumber, car mechanic, dentist, accountant, lawyer, etc. - but you won't learn it to any comfortable level by reading books, instructions and posts in the newsgroup. You won't even have the knowledge after graduating as a dentist without gaining some serious experience first.

So, there is and always will be a difference. Especially in the immigration process when all you can learn is very basic and generic information from application kits that covers only straightforward, average cases and doesn't tell you what to do and how to act in your particular circumstances. And believe me - there are not too many straightforward cases that may be fully covered by basic info from application kit, even if person reading it reads it and follows as it was intended by CIC.



Originally Posted by mirekj
Hallo Mr Miller,

I think you are right, but as far as I know it doesn't matter if you hire somebody to represent you or you fill an application by yourself.
The only difference is the practicioner has more experience how to do that.
Anyway, in my opinion it isn't so difficult to prepare the application, but it costs a lot of time and patience.
If somebody feel, he/she can do it he/she should.
One more - I think it doesn't influence on officer decision, if there is any representant, unless the officer knows he or she.

MJ
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Old Aug 21st 2004, 8:07 am
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

Dear Mr Miller,

I appreciate you reply to my and others posts. We can learn a lot from your posts.
Maybe you are right, that our mentality influence on our way of look at the process, but you wrote:

** And if officer sees case well prepared and conclusively presented by reputable practitioner he or she may not be so keen to use a negative substitute evaluation that will for sure lead to legal challenge from that practitioner **

On the other hand if somebody is my representative, he or she just fill the data which I provide. It doesn't matter if I type the data or somebody else.
It makes sense if you mean, how to show all data in "better light" then the representative can do a lot, because he or she knows how CIC Officers look at the papers and how to give them what they want.
But if any representative just fills the forms, sends them to CIC and gets money, it is not fair. All information an applicant provides and he or she knows the best the case.
If you want to show the truth on the application forms you can fill them only one way. there is no more possibilities, because all privided facts you have to support with specific docs.

MJ (Poland)
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Old Aug 21st 2004, 9:09 am
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

And this is where your (and not only yours) problem lies - in your understanding application preparation means completing the forms. Dead, dead wrong. Anyone with basic English or French skills can fill the forms. Even if you make simple mistake in the form it will be corrected by officer or you will be asked for clarification. Simple mistakes in completing forms will not lead to refusal.

Case is not and will never be made by simply completing forms, no matter how perfectly - it is the supporting evidence, it's format and content, it is making sure that all doubts and questions officer assessing, evaluating and verifying evidence may have are predicted and fully, conclusivelly addressed in the application package. There is no instruction available (at least I haven't seen such yet) that will provide full, detailed guidance for all real life circumstances. And take it from someone who is representing clients and submitting their applications for almost 14 years now - there are no 2 identical cases, each case is different, has it's unique circumstances and all of that must be addressed properly and conclusively to assure smooth process without delays caused by need for interview or request for clarification or additional evidence.

Completing forms is not what it is all about. It is about making sure that absolutely nothing is left for officer's doubts, questions or (God forbid!) any subjective, negative interpretation as nothing inconclusive will be interpreted in your favor. It is about making sure that officer has on his or her desk absolutely everything, all evidence conclusively proving all claims and addressing any additional questions any fact or evidence may trigger (and again, take it from my experience - each case always has additional questions and doubts that must be covered) and doesn't need to ask you for anything else nor call you for interview.

And finally it is about making sure that your entire application package convinces officer beyond any doubt that you have skills and abilities to successfully establish yourself economically in Canada. Please show me where in the application kit or anywhere else on CIC website you'll find the information how to do it. Please read Regulations, section 76(3) here:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor2-227/sec76.html

and tell me where in instructions or on CIC website you will find information how to assure that officer won't use the above section to refuse you even if you have 95+ points.

You may try to buy one of many available on the Internet "Do-it-Yourself" kits for anywhere from couple hundreds to well over 500 dollars - some will provide you with deeper insight than application kit and CIC website, but still they will be more or less generic, never case specific. In many cases some "Do-it-Yourself" kits are of great help going well beyond CIC website and may be enough for straightforward, close to average circumstances, but not in all cases.



Originally Posted by mirekj
Dear Mr Miller,

I appreciate you reply to my and others posts. We can learn a lot from your posts.
Maybe you are right, that our mentality influence on our way of look at the process, but you wrote:

** And if officer sees case well prepared and conclusively presented by reputable practitioner he or she may not be so keen to use a negative substitute evaluation that will for sure lead to legal challenge from that practitioner **

On the other hand if somebody is my representative, he or she just fill the data which I provide. It doesn't matter if I type the data or somebody else.
It makes sense if you mean, how to show all data in "better light" then the representative can do a lot, because he or she knows how CIC Officers look at the papers and how to give them what they want.
But if any representative just fills the forms, sends them to CIC and gets money, it is not fair. All information an applicant provides and he or she knows the best the case.
If you want to show the truth on the application forms you can fill them only one way. there is no more possibilities, because all privided facts you have to support with specific docs.

MJ (Poland)

Last edited by Andrew Miller; Aug 21st 2004 at 10:02 am.
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Old Aug 22nd 2004, 2:01 am
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

At the way Mr Miller is selling himself in this forum, anyone who intends to engage him should definitely get from him "money back" if application is refused (since the application papers will leave no room whatsoever for doubt).

Also note that others may disagree with him on his view about the effect of passmark changes.

jeff


QUOTE=Andrew Miller]And this is where your (and not only yours) problem lies - in your understanding application preparation means completing the forms. Dead, dead wrong. Anyone with basic English or French skills can fill the forms. Even if you make simple mistake in the form it will be corrected by officer or you will be asked for clarification. Simple mistakes in completing forms will not lead to refusal.

Case is not and will never be made by simply completing forms, no matter how perfectly - it is the supporting evidence, it's format and content, it is making sure that all doubts and questions officer assessing, evaluating and verifying evidence may have are predicted and fully, conclusivelly addressed in the application package. There is no instruction available (at least I haven't seen such yet) that will provide full, detailed guidance for all real life circumstances. And take it from someone who is representing clients and submitting their applications for almost 14 years now - there are no 2 identical cases, each case is different, has it's unique circumstances and all of that must be addressed properly and conclusively to assure smooth process without delays caused by need for interview or request for clarification or additional evidence.

Completing forms is not what it is all about. It is about making sure that absolutely nothing is left for officer's doubts, questions or (God forbid!) any subjective, negative interpretation as nothing inconclusive will be interpreted in your favor. It is about making sure that officer has on his or her desk absolutely everything, all evidence conclusively proving all claims and addressing any additional questions any fact or evidence may trigger (and again, take it from my experience - each case always has additional questions and doubts that must be covered) and doesn't need to ask you for anything else nor call you for interview.

And finally it is about making sure that your entire application package convinces officer beyond any doubt that you have skills and abilities to successfully establish yourself economically in Canada. Please show me where in the application kit or anywhere else on CIC website you'll find the information how to do it. Please read Regulations, section 76(3) here:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor2-227/sec76.html

and tell me where in instructions or on CIC website you will find information how to assure that officer won't use the above section to refuse you even if you have 95+ points.

You may try to buy one of many available on the Internet "Do-it-Yourself" kits for anywhere from couple hundreds to well over 500 dollars - some will provide you with deeper insight than application kit and CIC website, but still they will be more or less generic, never case specific. In many cases some "Do-it-Yourself" kits are of great help going well beyond CIC website and may be enough for straightforward, close to average circumstances, but not in all cases.[/QUOTE]
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Old Aug 22nd 2004, 2:50 am
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Default Re: Ladies & gentlemen : the law

What is your problem? You came to this forum to attack and argue with me only, you haven't contributed anything and posted absolutely nothing of any value.

As for "money back" - you may not know it (those who ask know) but ***I do provide full money back guarantee in case of visa refusal clearly written in my service contracts*** for many years now. And I haven't have a refused case in past 10+ years.

What about your contract (if any) and your record (if any)?

So far there is no immigration practitioner posting here with his or her full, verifiable name who disagree with me "about the effect of pass mark changes" - only yourself disagree and few applicants hope that it won't be applied retroactively. Other expert contributing to this forum supported already quite clearly my reading of section 77 - why you didn't argue with him too?


Originally Posted by jeffank
At the way Mr Miller is selling himself in this forum, anyone who intends to engage him should definitely get from him "money back" if application is refused (since the application papers will leave no room whatsoever for doubt).

Also note that others may disagree with him on his view about the effect of passmark changes.

jeff


QUOTE=Andrew Miller]And this is where your (and not only yours) problem lies - in your understanding application preparation means completing the forms. Dead, dead wrong. Anyone with basic English or French skills can fill the forms. Even if you make simple mistake in the form it will be corrected by officer or you will be asked for clarification. Simple mistakes in completing forms will not lead to refusal.

Case is not and will never be made by simply completing forms, no matter how perfectly - it is the supporting evidence, it's format and content, it is making sure that all doubts and questions officer assessing, evaluating and verifying evidence may have are predicted and fully, conclusivelly addressed in the application package. There is no instruction available (at least I haven't seen such yet) that will provide full, detailed guidance for all real life circumstances. And take it from someone who is representing clients and submitting their applications for almost 14 years now - there are no 2 identical cases, each case is different, has it's unique circumstances and all of that must be addressed properly and conclusively to assure smooth process without delays caused by need for interview or request for clarification or additional evidence.

Completing forms is not what it is all about. It is about making sure that absolutely nothing is left for officer's doubts, questions or (God forbid!) any subjective, negative interpretation as nothing inconclusive will be interpreted in your favor. It is about making sure that officer has on his or her desk absolutely everything, all evidence conclusively proving all claims and addressing any additional questions any fact or evidence may trigger (and again, take it from my experience - each case always has additional questions and doubts that must be covered) and doesn't need to ask you for anything else nor call you for interview.

And finally it is about making sure that your entire application package convinces officer beyond any doubt that you have skills and abilities to successfully establish yourself economically in Canada. Please show me where in the application kit or anywhere else on CIC website you'll find the information how to do it. Please read Regulations, section 76(3) here:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor2-227/sec76.html

and tell me where in instructions or on CIC website you will find information how to assure that officer won't use the above section to refuse you even if you have 95+ points.

You may try to buy one of many available on the Internet "Do-it-Yourself" kits for anywhere from couple hundreds to well over 500 dollars - some will provide you with deeper insight than application kit and CIC website, but still they will be more or less generic, never case specific. In many cases some "Do-it-Yourself" kits are of great help going well beyond CIC website and may be enough for straightforward, close to average circumstances, but not in all cases.
[/QUOTE]
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