Interesting story

Old Aug 25th 2003, 3:54 am
  #1  
Simon
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Posts: n/a
Default Interesting story

Article on Canada.com about new immigrants:
--

http://www.canada.com/calgary/story....4-0AA8BC6AD33E


Some quotes and comments:

"The report doesn't say why it is taking immigrants longer to fully
integrate into the job market than it did 20 years ago."

A: We all _really_ know why this is. Don't need to spell it out.


"Remove barriers to the recognition of the foreign certification of skills."

A: Indeed. Canadian Employers need to realise there are other education
systems in the world that match and surpass that of Canada!

... it goes on - read it - there is some interesting stuff there.


--
For those with nothing better to do: http://littleblog.com/simon
http://www.s80.net ~ simon at s80 dot net
 
Old Aug 25th 2003, 4:23 am
  #2  
Robert
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interesting story

"Simon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Article on Canada.com about new immigrants:
    > --
http://www.canada.com/calgary/story....4-0AA8BC6AD33E
    > Some quotes and comments:
    > "The report doesn't say why it is taking immigrants longer to fully
    > integrate into the job market than it did 20 years ago."
    > A: We all _really_ know why this is. Don't need to spell it out.
    > "Remove barriers to the recognition of the foreign certification of
skills."
    > A: Indeed. Canadian Employers need to realise there are other education
    > systems in the world that match and surpass that of Canada!
    > ... it goes on - read it - there is some interesting stuff there.
    > --
    > For those with nothing better to do: http://littleblog.com/simon
    > http://www.s80.net ~ simon at s80 dot net
Much of it has been said before.

There are methods for the recgognition of foriegn certifications (dont
always work but what does in this world)

Canada seems to have adopted some tougher standards for immigrants, but when
you look at the immigration scene in the U.K. and europe you have to see
why.

9/11 also has quite a bit to do with things I.M.H.O.

I am lucky in that my first language is English. having dealt with a few
"newish immigrants" from other countries whose language was not English !
I can certainly understand why it now has a more important role in
immigration.

If the study is conducted again in 2-3 years when the new rules have had
time to be effective you may find the results change. (providing the govt.
dont mess things up again !)
 
Old Aug 25th 2003, 10:13 am
  #3  
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interesting story

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:54:22 -0600, Simon
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Article on Canada.com about new immigrants:
    >--
    >http://www.canada.com/calgary/story....4-0AA8BC6AD33E

Regarding the story, I question the validity of the numbers. They
sound a little far-fetched. Perhaps the author has a stone to grind
or some kind of mandate.

    >Some quotes and comments:
    >"The report doesn't say why it is taking immigrants longer to fully
    >integrate into the job market than it did 20 years ago."
    >A: We all _really_ know why this is. Don't need to spell it out.
    >"Remove barriers to the recognition of the foreign certification of skills."
    >A: Indeed. Canadian Employers need to realise there are other education
    >systems in the world that match and surpass that of Canada!

Unfortunately there are many that are far below Canada. Picking and
choosing which countries are better than others is not easy. I
certainly don't want a family doctor whose educaiton is below my
standards! So I'd rather have my family doctors with credentials in
Canada or the USA.

And unfortunately when I see a resume with the University of Toronto
on it, I know what kind of employee I'm hiring. I know because the
University of Toronto is down the street. Hey, I went there too!
It's local to me. It's what I know. But when I see the University of
Tim-buk-too, then I have no idea what quality of employee I am hiring.
I cannot rate the quality of education. If I get these two resumes on
my desk, guess who gets the job?
 
Old Aug 25th 2003, 1:00 pm
  #4  
Goose
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interesting story

There are some REALLY GOOD universities in the world a bit farther "down the
street" and are even easier to spell than the one you suggested . You
might want to take a look and explore a few more blocks "down or up in the
world". It's fun, too!

<etwqeggqjqd324234> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:54:22 -0600, Simon
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >Article on Canada.com about new immigrants:
    > >--
    > >
    >http://www.canada.com/calgary/story....-BAE4-0AA8BC6A
D33E
    > Regarding the story, I question the validity of the numbers. They
    > sound a little far-fetched. Perhaps the author has a stone to grind
    > or some kind of mandate.
    > >Some quotes and comments:
    > >
    > >"The report doesn't say why it is taking immigrants longer to fully
    > >integrate into the job market than it did 20 years ago."
    > >
    > >A: We all _really_ know why this is. Don't need to spell it out.
    > >
    > >
    > >"Remove barriers to the recognition of the foreign certification of
skills."
    > >
    > >A: Indeed. Canadian Employers need to realise there are other education
    > >systems in the world that match and surpass that of Canada!
    > Unfortunately there are many that are far below Canada. Picking and
    > choosing which countries are better than others is not easy. I
    > certainly don't want a family doctor whose educaiton is below my
    > standards! So I'd rather have my family doctors with credentials in
    > Canada or the USA.
    > And unfortunately when I see a resume with the University of Toronto
    > on it, I know what kind of employee I'm hiring. I know because the
    > University of Toronto is down the street. Hey, I went there too!
    > It's local to me. It's what I know. But when I see the University of
    > Tim-buk-too, then I have no idea what quality of employee I am hiring.
    > I cannot rate the quality of education. If I get these two resumes on
    > my desk, guess who gets the job?
 
Old Aug 26th 2003, 5:19 am
  #5  
Adrian Stoica
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interesting story

The new rules will make the situation much worse, because now the
immigration process is totally divorced from the needs of the labour market.
For example India's universities output hundreds of thousands of IT
engineers every year, and under the new rules most would probably qualify
for immigration, even though there is a huge oversupply of IT skills already
here. So many immigrants will be faced with a choice between returning to
their country of origin, or abandoning their current profession (in which
they may have invested many years of education and hard work) and find some
other employment, most likely some low-skill minimum-wage service job. And
everybody loses out in this process, the immigrant who sees their hopes
shattered and Canada, who gets incompetent taxi drivers but who know
everything there is to know about C++.

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Simon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Article on Canada.com about new immigrants:
    > > --
    > >
    > >
http://www.canada.com/calgary/story....4-0AA8BC6AD33E
    > >
    > >
    > > Some quotes and comments:
    > >
    > > "The report doesn't say why it is taking immigrants longer to fully
    > > integrate into the job market than it did 20 years ago."
    > >
    > > A: We all _really_ know why this is. Don't need to spell it out.
    > >
    > >
    > > "Remove barriers to the recognition of the foreign certification of
    > skills."
    > >
    > > A: Indeed. Canadian Employers need to realise there are other education
    > > systems in the world that match and surpass that of Canada!
    > >
    > > ... it goes on - read it - there is some interesting stuff there.
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > For those with nothing better to do: http://littleblog.com/simon
    > > http://www.s80.net ~ simon at s80 dot net
    > >
    > Much of it has been said before.
    > There are methods for the recgognition of foriegn certifications (dont
    > always work but what does in this world)
    > Canada seems to have adopted some tougher standards for immigrants, but
when
    > you look at the immigration scene in the U.K. and europe you have to see
    > why.
    > 9/11 also has quite a bit to do with things I.M.H.O.
    > I am lucky in that my first language is English. having dealt with a few
    > "newish immigrants" from other countries whose language was not English !
    > I can certainly understand why it now has a more important role in
    > immigration.
    > If the study is conducted again in 2-3 years when the new rules have had
    > time to be effective you may find the results change. (providing the govt.
    > dont mess things up again !)
 
Old Aug 26th 2003, 6:11 am
  #6  
Robert
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interesting story

"Adrian Stoica" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > The new rules will make the situation much worse, because now the
    > immigration process is totally divorced from the needs of the labour
market.
    > For example India's universities output hundreds of thousands of IT
    > engineers every year, and under the new rules most would probably qualify
    > for immigration, even though there is a huge oversupply of IT skills
already
    > here. So many immigrants will be faced with a choice between returning to
    > their country of origin, or abandoning their current profession (in which
    > they may have invested many years of education and hard work) and find
some
    > other employment, most likely some low-skill minimum-wage service job. And
    > everybody loses out in this process, the immigrant who sees their hopes
    > shattered and Canada, who gets incompetent taxi drivers but who know
    > everything there is to know about C++.
<snip>
Isn't this where the tougher language rules come into force and weed out
those who may be skilled in a profession but not in a language ?

Indeed many countries issue diplomas like wedding confetti, again a good
reason for a more stringent policy.

It has amazed me, the amount of people who have a very limited grasp of
either of the two official language or sometimes the profession they claim
to have.

Many of those who are worldly wise / street wise and have all the correct
attributes will settle into a different country a lot quicker than those who
do not. As the process stands it seems to favor those people more.

I would only just make the points system if I had to do it again.

An expert in C++ is no good unless they can communicate fully in English or
French (even better BOTH) before they apply !

Its mostly a matter of being prepared for a total change in life-style,
attitude, and lots of other things, which sadly, a lot of applicants are
not.

I.M.H.O the new rules help out a little in this.
 
Old Aug 26th 2003, 6:41 am
  #7  
Adrian Stoica
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interesting story

Granted, the emphasis on language skills is important, but dropping the
occupations list is a step backwards in my opinion, because people will
arrive here with brilliant qualifications which may be totally worthless on
the job market. It doesn't make any sense to attract the educated people
that the third world desperately needs, only to employ them in fast-food
outlets and gas stations.

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Adrian Stoica" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > The new rules will make the situation much worse, because now the
    > > immigration process is totally divorced from the needs of the labour
    > market.
    > > For example India's universities output hundreds of thousands of IT
    > > engineers every year, and under the new rules most would probably
qualify
    > > for immigration, even though there is a huge oversupply of IT skills
    > already
    > > here. So many immigrants will be faced with a choice between returning
to
    > > their country of origin, or abandoning their current profession (in
which
    > > they may have invested many years of education and hard work) and find
    > some
    > > other employment, most likely some low-skill minimum-wage service job.
And
    > > everybody loses out in this process, the immigrant who sees their hopes
    > > shattered and Canada, who gets incompetent taxi drivers but who know
    > > everything there is to know about C++.
    > >
    > <snip>
    > Isn't this where the tougher language rules come into force and weed out
    > those who may be skilled in a profession but not in a language ?
    > Indeed many countries issue diplomas like wedding confetti, again a good
    > reason for a more stringent policy.
    > It has amazed me, the amount of people who have a very limited grasp of
    > either of the two official language or sometimes the profession they claim
    > to have.
    > Many of those who are worldly wise / street wise and have all the correct
    > attributes will settle into a different country a lot quicker than those
who
    > do not. As the process stands it seems to favor those people more.
    > I would only just make the points system if I had to do it again.
    > An expert in C++ is no good unless they can communicate fully in English
or
    > French (even better BOTH) before they apply !
    > Its mostly a matter of being prepared for a total change in life-style,
    > attitude, and lots of other things, which sadly, a lot of applicants are
    > not.
    > I.M.H.O the new rules help out a little in this.
 
Old Aug 26th 2003, 10:16 am
  #8  
Simon
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interesting story

I totally agree !

Adrian Stoica wrote:

    > The new rules will make the situation much worse, because now the
    > immigration process is totally divorced from the needs of the labour market.
    > For example India's universities output hundreds of thousands of IT
    > engineers every year, and under the new rules most would probably qualify
    > for immigration, even though there is a huge oversupply of IT skills already
    > here. So many immigrants will be faced with a choice between returning to
    > their country of origin, or abandoning their current profession (in which
    > they may have invested many years of education and hard work) and find some
    > other employment, most likely some low-skill minimum-wage service job. And
    > everybody loses out in this process, the immigrant who sees their hopes
    > shattered and Canada, who gets incompetent taxi drivers but who know
    > everything there is to know about C++.
    >

    >


--
For those with nothing better to do: http://littleblog.com/simon
http://www.s80.net ~ simon at s80 dot net
 
Old Aug 26th 2003, 3:55 pm
  #9  
Robert
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interesting story

"Adrian Stoica" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Granted, the emphasis on language skills is important, but dropping the
    > occupations list is a step backwards in my opinion, because people will
    > arrive here with brilliant qualifications which may be totally worthless
on
    > the job market. It doesn't make any sense to attract the educated people
    > that the third world desperately needs, only to employ them in fast-food
    > outlets and gas stations.
<snip>
You didn't deal fully with the point that MANY qualifications are not worth
the paper they are printed on no matter how brilliant they seem.

A third world country that needs its people should do its best to keep them.

My last employer in the U.K. offered me a partnership and associated
benefits to stay. But at the end of the day I wanted better for my family,
something the U.K. can no longer offer.

Many people change direction through the course of their life and employment
is included in there.

Even if the occupations list only had taxi drivers on it you would still get
teachers applying (as taxi drivers)

Immigration encompasses too much to say "Oh he's the worlds best rocket
scientist let him in"

Its the governments job to make sure training is available for those
professions that are in demand. which in turn keeps down unemployment, which
in turn means less immigrants are needed.

Saying all the best people are "taxi drivers" is rather cliché when many
many more have taken a step back, re-evaluated themselves and either pushed
themselves hard to get back into their original profession or changed tack
slightly but still made good headway in a similar profession.

choice is to either give up and be a taxi driver then blame someone else, or
push ahead

Some people give up too easy,. so many more of us "immigrants" DIDN'T !
 

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