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I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Old Apr 3rd 2005, 5:27 am
  #31  
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Originally Posted by ChicagoJer
Just my "two cents" again- I think that the "backlog" of cases affected by the class-action lawsuit won't affect individuals on this forum who've already received a positive selection decision.

I certainly don't have the expertise of PMM, Jim, and Andrew, but my guess is that any increase in pass mark wouldn't exceed 70-73 points and it would probably won't happen until later this year (if it happens at all).
Sometimes it just feels like Groundhog day
There's no point in worrying about it until something happens, even then they'll probably turn around and say that all applications in the system will be scored on the 67 pass mark, it would be so unfair if they didn't. (I know it says this in some small print that this is not the case, but it's the logical answer).
I've got a signed letter from my consultants (the biggest in the country apparently) stating that applications in the system will NOT be effected by a points increase, but we'll have to wait and see. Some people say one thing, others another, but one thing's for sure, there'll be no outcome to this thread Relax
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Old Apr 3rd 2005, 5:34 am
  #32  
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Hi

Originally Posted by Bleech
Sometimes it just feels like Groundhog day
There's no point in worrying about it until something happens, even then they'll probably turn around and say that all applications in the system will be scored on the 67 pass mark, it would be so unfair if they didn't. (I know it says this in some small print that this is not the case, but it's the logical answer).
I've got a signed letter from my consultants (the biggest in the country apparently) stating that applications in the system will NOT be effected by a points increase, but we'll have to wait and see. Some people say one thing, others another, but one thing's for sure, there'll be no outcome to this thread Relax
Suggest that you send your consultants a copy of Sec. 77 of the Regulations for their comment.

"For the purposes of Part 5, the requirements and criteria set out in sections 75 and 76 must be met at the time an application for a permanent resident visa is made as well as at the time the visa is issued."

PMM
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Old Apr 3rd 2005, 7:38 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Originally Posted by PMM
Hi



Suggest that you send your consultants a copy of Sec. 77 of the Regulations for their comment.

"For the purposes of Part 5, the requirements and criteria set out in sections 75 and 76 must be met at the time an application for a permanent resident visa is made as well as at the time the visa is issued."

PMM
Hi PMM,
I've read about sections 75 and 76 now for the past 14 months, but like I say, we'll never know which way they'll go until something changes. Plus it makes me feel better if I keep convincing myself that nothing will happen
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Old Apr 3rd 2005, 7:46 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Originally Posted by Bleech
Hi PMM,
I've read about sections 75 and 76 now for the past 14 months, but like I say, we'll never know which way they'll go until something changes. Plus it makes me feel better if I keep convincing myself that nothing will happen

I am with you Bleech! Or, maybe, it will be decided to decrease the current passmark to 63, or 60...
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Old Apr 3rd 2005, 10:16 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Dear Mr Andrew,
It was interesting reading your opinion on the point system, being set so low so as to cause so much of backlog.And your prophecy of increase.
But you are an immigration consultant, how do you choose your would be clients?
1 From a certain region only, and wouldn't think of other regions?( You have stated that lobbyists and consultants from two major source countries want to keep the point low so they can get the votes and clients. But the point system has not increased the annual inflow, it is still well below the targeted 1% of the population)
2 Clients who already have more than the present cut off of 67, in full anticipation of the future?( That means the applicants from those two major source countries just about make it to 67, where as those from other regions are all above set mark?)
3 From the discussion forums?(You have always volunteered to help through your personal email id, even for the most awkward cases, I have read in your posts that your cases are being processed on the priority basis)
Now a bit of politics.
Liberals were and are in power even if it's a minority government, when the policy was announced, this has no bearing to voting pattern, as the citizens vote and immigration is not the sole criteria. The annual finances are passed in parliament after approval of bench.(In your perspective the liberals just struggled to make it with the help of certain ethnic groups, and if the point are set higher they will loose, or if the other party comes to power it will take it's revenge with the liberals with one point agenda of raising the points? I guess Canada must be thinking of a lot more things.
Finally if you were to be the policy maker and adviser to CIC , how would you frame the new policy to tackle backlog and curb lobbyists and consultants from these two major source countries?
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Old Apr 4th 2005, 3:42 am
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

1. Annual inflow of what? If you mean immigrants then annual targets are met every year in all classes. If you mean applications then growing backloga and rapidly increasing processing times prove that lowered pass mark resulted in inreased inflaw of applications.

I don't care where my clients are from, I accept clients from all over the world, regardless their nationality, race, religion, political views or any other factor you may think of.

2. I accept all clients who have reasonable chances for success (I provide money back guarantee, thus I simply don't take impossible cases) - among them also those with less points than pass mark, providing that they understand what needs to be done to have a chance for success and agree to fully cooperate with me. And those with score only equal to pass mark must also understand that they may be required to do more to increase their score in case pass mark goes up.

3. Less than 5% of my clients are coming from online forums. Majority are refered to me by current and former clients. I have also clients who found me by reading one of few books about immigration to Canada published in several countries I have authored or co-authored.

As for election politics - Liberals voters' base are large mertropolitan ridings (mainly in Ontario and Quebec) where the majority of voters are first generation immigrants.

I have stated my opinion many times here since the implementation of floating pass mark and retroactivity - CIC should stick to their guns and use it as intended. And these are exact words I use every time when periodically asked for comments by CIC.

Politicians turned quite good management tool into something working for them and their contributors, but not working for Canada, our economy and immigration program.

Originally Posted by samon
Dear Mr Andrew,
It was interesting reading your opinion on the point system, being set so low so as to cause so much of backlog.And your prophecy of increase.
But you are an immigration consultant, how do you choose your would be clients?
1 From a certain region only, and wouldn't think of other regions?( You have stated that lobbyists and consultants from two major source countries want to keep the point low so they can get the votes and clients. But the point system has not increased the annual inflow, it is still well below the targeted 1% of the population)
2 Clients who already have more than the present cut off of 67, in full anticipation of the future?( That means the applicants from those two major source countries just about make it to 67, where as those from other regions are all above set mark?)
3 From the discussion forums?(You have always volunteered to help through your personal email id, even for the most awkward cases, I have read in your posts that your cases are being processed on the priority basis)
Now a bit of politics.
Liberals were and are in power even if it's a minority government, when the policy was announced, this has no bearing to voting pattern, as the citizens vote and immigration is not the sole criteria. The annual finances are passed in parliament after approval of bench.(In your perspective the liberals just struggled to make it with the help of certain ethnic groups, and if the point are set higher they will loose, or if the other party comes to power it will take it's revenge with the liberals with one point agenda of raising the points? I guess Canada must be thinking of a lot more things.
Finally if you were to be the policy maker and adviser to CIC , how would you frame the new policy to tackle backlog and curb lobbyists and consultants from these two major source countries?
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Old Apr 4th 2005, 11:22 am
  #37  
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Sorry guys, but no so.

I applied prior to IRPA. Heard the rumours that there was going to be an increase in the passmark and the other rumour about both the grids being used for the benefit of the applicants, ie. your application would be assessed under the rules where you scored the highest. The former turned out to be true and the latter was a hope!

We applied in Jan and received the rejection letter in August. Under the old rules we had more than enough points, under the new rules, which were not even in effect until after we received our AOR, we were two points short!! We were caught out as the law was retroactive and could therefore be applied to applications submitted before the Act became law.

Friends of mine applied about six weeks before we did and their application was assessed under the old system. They've been in Toronto now for almost two years...and loving it!

Just letting you know my experience. But be positive. I am. If we get rejected a second time, I'm going to write a book - One Million Things To Do While Waiting For Your Visa!! #1 Join a forum (of course!!).


Nite Nite!

L

Originally Posted by cryout
I am with you Bleech! Or, maybe, it will be decided to decrease the current passmark to 63, or 60...
 
Old Apr 4th 2005, 12:04 pm
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Originally Posted by Lyles
Sorry guys, but no so.

I applied prior to IRPA. Heard the rumours that there was going to be an increase in the passmark and the other rumour about both the grids being used for the benefit of the applicants, ie. your application would be assessed under the rules where you scored the highest. The former turned out to be true and the latter was a hope!

We applied in Jan and received the rejection letter in August. Under the old rules we had more than enough points, under the new rules, which were not even in effect until after we received our AOR, we were two points short!! We were caught out as the law was retroactive and could therefore be applied to applications submitted before the Act became law.

Friends of mine applied about six weeks before we did and their application was assessed under the old system. They've been in Toronto now for almost two years...and loving it!

Just letting you know my experience. But be positive. I am. If we get rejected a second time, I'm going to write a book - One Million Things To Do While Waiting For Your Visa!! #1 Join a forum (of course!!).


Nite Nite!

L
You must have applied in January 2003, thus the settlement does not apply to you. Quite unlucky to be only a few weeks late! Who could know?
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Old Apr 4th 2005, 1:07 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Originally Posted by Bleech
Sometimes it just feels like Groundhog day
There's no point in worrying about it until something happens, even then they'll probably turn around and say that all applications in the system will be scored on the 67 pass mark, it would be so unfair if they didn't. (I know it says this in some small print that this is not the case, but it's the logical answer).
I've got a signed letter from my consultants (the biggest in the country apparently) stating that applications in the system will NOT be effected by a points increase, but we'll have to wait and see. Some people say one thing, others another, but one thing's for sure, there'll be no outcome to this thread Relax
I agree, there is no point in worrying about it. As for me, I'm sick of the forum perpetuating this type of fear. Opinions were said so do we really need to keep dragging this out over and over again? I'm sure at least one person will argue “yes".
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Old Apr 4th 2005, 8:23 pm
  #40  
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I think we actually applied in 2002! IRPA came into effect in June 2003, right? Yes, then we must have applied in the Jan before that.

Err.. what settlement? I know there were changes made to try to make it a bit more fair for those who applied in December 2001. But I'm not aware of anything else. Have I missed something?

L


Originally Posted by Jim Humphries
You must have applied in January 2003, thus the settlement does not apply to you. Quite unlucky to be only a few weeks late! Who could know?
 
Old Apr 4th 2005, 8:59 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

We used to worry everytime we heard there was going to be an increase in the points total. Why worry, we cannot do anything about it. What will be, will be, whether you worry yourself sick or not. It is not worth ruining your health for!

We have scraped through on 72 points, so it is highly likely that we will be caught if the points total is raised, which I think that it will be, to a level higher than our own.

If that is the case, there is not a lot more we can do, but a least we can tell ourselves that we tried, even if we failed.

If we do manage to get approval before the points total is raised all well and good. We take one day at a time.

I do consider the retroactive policy to be unfair and that there should be a lock in for existing applicants. I have been assured by the immigration lawyer that we used (Leonard Simcoe) that there is a lock in procedure, but it does seem evident from reading the expert comments on this site that he is wrong. Why is it that these professionals can get the basic, but vital fundamentals so wrong!!! It appears that he is not the only Immigration Consultant stating this view. EXPERTS COMMENTS PLEASE because, if in my own profession I advised a client incorrectly I would be severely censured by my governining body the FSA, and most probably be subjected to a compensation claim for offering bad advice.

Canada is our number one choice, but we have decided that if we cannot get into Canada, we will look at moving to rural Spain, of France. It is always worth having a Plan B, even if it is not your desired choice.


Originally Posted by rahul_singh23
Hello,

Some one at my work was telling that Canada Immigration points are changing (increasing.. may be 80) from existing 67 points and all the people will be effected who did not receive their visas.

I am scared with that....

Thanks

Last edited by Gray C; Apr 4th 2005 at 9:02 pm.
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Old Apr 4th 2005, 10:39 pm
  #42  
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Oh boy seems we have pricked a bee hive, it is stinging us for no good reason. But good it was touched upon, as sooner or later this would have cropped up. So let's keep the thread alive, but without any tensions.
Now it is agreed that points were reduced in Sept 2003 from 75 to 63, as there was a decrease in the application number by as much as 75%(can be verified from the official site) in this one year, after the new IRPA rules were applied from June 2002. The cases which had applied before Jan 2002 and had not been finalised(numbering 100,000) , were to be assessed by the new point system ie retroactively.
Any sensible person would challenge this clause, it makes no sense, why should those poor applicants suffer who had their cases accepted and waiting for the their turn, when all of a sudden there is a jolt from the blue, an increase in the points. Why was proper thought not given to this? It seems officials knew about this, but hid it to get the rule passed. When challenged in court, a face saving exercise was done, and rest is for the lawyers to explain..what all transpired. But CIC cut a sorry figure.
Now retroactivity clause is gone, and all pre Jan 2002 cases would be assessed by either the old or new rules(with 67 points) which ever is favourable. For this the final verdict has yet to come, but all pre Jan 2002 cases still stuck up will have to be cleared by latest 2008.
Again what is surprising is initially in June 2002 the marks were 75, when it was amended in Sept 2003 and reduced to 67, it became applicable to all past and future would be applicants, ie again retroactively applied( Mr Andrew is right to point this out, referred to as floating point system)
If the CIC is to be clear in it's policy it can give an assurance that AOR will be the lock in date, no matter what may come, and all those will be processed as per the AOR. All those who can't make it better wait for the new system, whenever it comes in force and if they have a chance, apply again.
So a clear cut method to stop this confusion would be,
1 All those who have their AOR and waiting, should remain at 67.
2 All pre Jan 2002 cases to be processed in combination with the new cases, ie the new cases not to be kept stranded.
3 If a new policy is to be announced, than only the new applicants to be affected by it, after it's coming in force.
4 Finally the AOR to be the lock in date.
God once and for all clear this mess, why are they playing with the sentiments, even the Nazis were better.
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Old Apr 5th 2005, 3:17 am
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

IRPA was implemented in June 2002 but as in force as of january 1st 2002 - thus if you applied in January 2002 you are already subject to IRPA only and class action lawsuit doesn't affect your case at all.

Originally Posted by Lyles
I think we actually applied in 2002! IRPA came into effect in June 2003, right? Yes, then we must have applied in the Jan before that.

Err.. what settlement? I know there were changes made to try to make it a bit more fair for those who applied in December 2001. But I'm not aware of anything else. Have I missed something?

L
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Old Apr 5th 2005, 3:24 am
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Some immigration practitioners try to lure clients by promising them things they cannot deliver. Others who claim that there is a lock in for pass mark simply lack expertise in immigration matters.

Originally Posted by Gray C
We used to worry everytime we heard there was going to be an increase in the points total. Why worry, we cannot do anything about it. What will be, will be, whether you worry yourself sick or not. It is not worth ruining your health for!

We have scraped through on 72 points, so it is highly likely that we will be caught if the points total is raised, which I think that it will be, to a level higher than our own.

If that is the case, there is not a lot more we can do, but a least we can tell ourselves that we tried, even if we failed.

If we do manage to get approval before the points total is raised all well and good. We take one day at a time.

I do consider the retroactive policy to be unfair and that there should be a lock in for existing applicants. I have been assured by the immigration lawyer that we used (Leonard Simcoe) that there is a lock in procedure, but it does seem evident from reading the expert comments on this site that he is wrong. Why is it that these professionals can get the basic, but vital fundamentals so wrong!!! It appears that he is not the only Immigration Consultant stating this view. EXPERTS COMMENTS PLEASE because, if in my own profession I advised a client incorrectly I would be severely censured by my governining body the FSA, and most probably be subjected to a compensation claim for offering bad advice.

Canada is our number one choice, but we have decided that if we cannot get into Canada, we will look at moving to rural Spain, of France. It is always worth having a Plan B, even if it is not your desired choice.
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Old Apr 5th 2005, 3:29 am
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Default Re: I am Scared (change in points) - Experts advice welcome

Retroactivity is not gone. Federal court (in Feb 2003 decision) only accepted a challenge to retroactivity from pre-2002 applicants and dismissed all claims from those who applied after 2001, in fact uphelding retroactivity for all cases filed under IRPA.

Originally Posted by samon
Oh boy seems we have pricked a bee hive, it is stinging us for no good reason. But good it was touched upon, as sooner or later this would have cropped up. So let's keep the thread alive, but without any tensions.
Now it is agreed that points were reduced in Sept 2003 from 75 to 63, as there was a decrease in the application number by as much as 75%(can be verified from the official site) in this one year, after the new IRPA rules were applied from June 2002. The cases which had applied before Jan 2002 and had not been finalised(numbering 100,000) , were to be assessed by the new point system ie retroactively.
Any sensible person would challenge this clause, it makes no sense, why should those poor applicants suffer who had their cases accepted and waiting for the their turn, when all of a sudden there is a jolt from the blue, an increase in the points. Why was proper thought not given to this? It seems officials knew about this, but hid it to get the rule passed. When challenged in court, a face saving exercise was done, and rest is for the lawyers to explain..what all transpired. But CIC cut a sorry figure.
Now retroactivity clause is gone, and all pre Jan 2002 cases would be assessed by either the old or new rules(with 67 points) which ever is favourable. For this the final verdict has yet to come, but all pre Jan 2002 cases still stuck up will have to be cleared by latest 2008.
Again what is surprising is initially in June 2002 the marks were 75, when it was amended in Sept 2003 and reduced to 67, it became applicable to all past and future would be applicants, ie again retroactively applied( Mr Andrew is right to point this out, referred to as floating point system)
If the CIC is to be clear in it's policy it can give an assurance that AOR will be the lock in date, no matter what may come, and all those will be processed as per the AOR. All those who can't make it better wait for the new system, whenever it comes in force and if they have a chance, apply again.
So a clear cut method to stop this confusion would be,
1 All those who have their AOR and waiting, should remain at 67.
2 All pre Jan 2002 cases to be processed in combination with the new cases, ie the new cases not to be kept stranded.
3 If a new policy is to be announced, than only the new applicants to be affected by it, after it's coming in force.
4 Finally the AOR to be the lock in date.
God once and for all clear this mess, why are they playing with the sentiments, even the Nazis were better.

Last edited by Andrew Miller; Apr 5th 2005 at 3:42 am.
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